Ohio Voters Reject Public-Union Curbs

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stevegravy said:
One last comment on Somalia… what you really see in Somalia is what a society degenerates to when there is no longer any respect for several key western ideas that have propped up **this **civilization. It is the concepts of personal rights that have developed from the ancient Greeks through the Magna Carta to Locke’s Treaty on Government. These are rights to life, private property and individual liberty.

You see I think you are mistaken on Somalia. There is a rule of many governments, every gang of thugs with an AK 47 has leaders that make the enforce rules for his territory. It is too bad the only ones allowed any rights are the guys with the guns. Pretty mid-evil actually just no castles.
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Loss of respect for western ideas, huh? I wonder which western ideas supported the ancient civilizations of that part of the world in their heydey? They seemed to find ways to not descend into chaos and mayhem, at least before their decline.

Somalia is a mess because it has no organized government, just gangs of thugs protecting their turf. And no it’s not medieval - that’s an insult to the people of that time, IMHO.
 
iamrefreshed said:
Just wanted to bump this as it was conveniently ignored.:rolleyes:
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You didn’t ignore it, obviously. Good job bringing to attention a post which I read twice and couldn’t quite figure out. Care to enlighten us on what it means?
 
It will be interesting to see how the State of Ohio fares compared to Wisconsin in the next few coming years.

Maybe I’ve lived in Chicago too long, but I really can’t see how anyone can support unions for public workers. Private industry, I fully comprehend. But when public workers are unionized, here’s how it works:
  1. The public workers unionize.
  2. The public workers union contributes to the candidate most willing to boost their pay and benefits.
  3. When/if said candidate wins, he owes big political favors to the union for backing him.
  4. Contract time comes and the unions “negotiate” with the politicians they bought during the campaign.
Question: Who represents ME (the schmuck taxpayer who has to pay for all these lavish benefits) at the bargaining table?
Answer: Nobody. The pol gets the union backing bucks, the unions get my tax money and I get endless tax increases.

Conclusion: Ohioans must not be paying attention to what they are paying in taxes.
I can’t understand how anybody can look at the totality of what they pay in taxes and not get mad enough to demand cuts EVERYWHERE!
 
manualman said:
Question: Who represents ME (the schmuck taxpayer who has to pay for all these lavish benefits) at the bargaining table?
Answer: Nobody. The pol gets the union backing bucks, the unions get my tax money and I get endless tax increases.
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Actually the answer would be yourself. If your unhappy with the bargaining done by the politicians at the bargaining table, then you could vote them out of office and elect those who agree with your position. That’s what I would do if I felt as you do.
 
shockerfan said:
the “supplying or creating (and selling) products / services” is wealth creation. Everything else you describe supports wealth creation. You are actually agreeing with me the more you write.

Government plays a supportive role, but not always. For example, there are websites with a whole host of pork barrel projects that don’t support wealth creation, just the destruction of wealth. Also, certain policies they enact can destroy wealth.

Monte RCMS is asking the right questions: How much government and what level of goverment?

Again, if you believe government creates wealth, then you should believe more government creates more wealth. So we should make government as big as possible so as to maximize wealth.
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On the basis that government creates wealth, then the most extreme examples … North Korea, Cuba and the Soviet Union should be the wealthiest nations on Earth … and everyone should be fighting to flee there.

But, instead, the exact opposite has happened.
 
CMatt25 said:
No because some in government have as their only goal to wait it out another year and hope to defeat a President.
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Code: 
  When the President is viewed, with reason, as a rabid Marxist, ridding ourselves of him is seen as a necessary first step in salvaging our Constitution and economy. :ehh: Rob

 P.S. Government sector unions negotiate against *taxpayers*, many of whom are elderly on fixed income who have *already* turned down their thermostats to dangerous levels. There is not an iota of concern for the immense difficulties these  poor folks face. IMO, at this point, the SEIU's of the world are amoral entities concerned only about their own power and wealth.
 
Tsuwano said:
I know what you said. My point is that the private sector, though it does create wealth, does not create wealth by itself. It often utilizes the power, wealth and assets of government in order to create that wealth. Both government and the private sector have a role to play in the creation of wealth. You can’t really talk about creating wealth without visualizing government and private enterprise working together. This is part of what President Coolidge meant when he said “The business of America is business.”
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The issue we have in the US today, is that we are out of balance between the size of government (i.e. the amount of support to create wealth), and the actual amount of wealth creators. We have too many supporters, and not enough wealth creators. The FACT that we have a deficit of over $1.1T per YEAR proves this.
The point I have been trying to make is to get people to admit who actually creates wealth. We need more wealth creators, and not a government that punishes them, or makes it harder for them to exist. Because we don’t have enough wealth creators, we have the scenario we have today: too many supporters (i.e. too much government spending) and not enough tax revenue to pay for it.
 
seekerz said:
Only if you snip off my sentences. I said ***anything which goes toward preparing *** an individual to do the supplying/creating…

Separating the notion of supportive roles, from active roles is creating an artificial division if the activity is not possible without the support. Wealth creation is inseparable from good governance.
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But too many “supporters”, and not enough “wealth creators”, is an extremely unhealthy scenario. Its exactly the scenario we have today…the size of our deficit proves this.
 
gamewell45 said:
Actually the answer would be yourself. If your unhappy with the bargaining done by the politicians at the bargaining table, then you could vote them out of office and elect those who agree with your position. That’s what I would do if I felt as you do.
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Supporting a system where the elected pay back those who supported them with (in this case) unsustainable pensions and benefits is cronyism.

This is one of the reason why I support no federal bailouts of states, municipalities, or cities. Let them declare bankruptcy, and solve their financial problems by themselves. If that means the public union supporters suffer, well sorry, they were the ones who voted for the mess to begin with.
 
shockerfan said:
Supporting a system where the elected pay back those who supported them with (in this case) unsustainable pensions and benefits is cronyism.

This is one of the reason why I support no federal bailouts of states, municipalities, or cities. Let them declare bankruptcy, and solve their financial problems by themselves. If that means the public union supporters suffer, well sorry, they were the ones who voted for the mess to begin with.
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👍
 
Do countries with a smaller government sector have a higher level of economic growth and economic prosperity?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Actually, Mexico has a government sector that is about 50% smaller than the US, are they creating lots of wealth?
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Their GDP growth rate is about 5.5%. Probably would be higher if they didn’t have rampant corruption and safety issues.
 
gamewell45 said:
Actually the answer would be yourself. If your unhappy with the bargaining done by the politicians at the bargaining table, then you could vote them out of office and elect those who agree with your position. That’s what I would do if I felt as you do.
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I believe that was what was done in Wisconsin with their governor, and when he moved to curb collective bargaining, we were told it was wrong. So which is it?

I agree that the voting booth is the way to enact change, which is what happened in WI, and can happen in any state.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Do countries with a smaller government sector have a higher level of economic growth and economic prosperity?
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Yes, the USA of the 1980's, which allowed families and businesses to keep more of their own wealth, were enormously prosperous. Now that government spending is above 99% of GDP, we are in an economic downward spiral. Europe would be a Utopia if socialist thinking was correct, and people would have risked their lives to break INTO the old USSR, instead of OUT of it. Rob
 
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