Ohio Voters Reject Public-Union Curbs

[Scott_Lafrance]

I realize that that is only an opinion, but…never mind.

John

If the government is the protector of the citizen, why on earth would government employees have to unionize? To protect the worker from the protector of the citizens?

 

[CMatt25]

If the government is the protector of the citizen, why on earth would government employees have to unionize? To protect the worker from the protector of the citizens?

Perhaps because how well the government is protecting the citizen worker can depend on who is in the goverment?

 

[shockerfan]

The government (and I thought we were talking state here) is not taking the dollar from you to give to someone else when they pay a teacher or a fireman or a policeman or when they provide health care coverage to a poor child. They are pooling your dollar with the next guy’s dollar to make sure that there is an educated workforce, that homes and businesses are protected from fire and crime, that parents can work instead of staying home with too-frequently-ill children. That’s what the dollars do.

On a federal level, waste and fraud notwithstanding, Medicare is both a boon to the elderly and an incentive to young workers and it makes health coverage accessible where otherwise it might not be affordable. I am not aware of a private insurance company which reimburses provider at a lower rate than Medicare, so yes it does generate wealth by allowing the elderly to access health care and still be able to eat, drink and maintain a dwelling (i.e. it allows them money left over to patronize businesses and keep the economy going). Leaving them to the mercies of current commercial insurance rates would ensure that many could not both access health care and cater to those basic needs.

We might like what the dollars get spent on, we might agree upon their purpose, but they are not creating wealth. If that were the case, then spend all tax dollars on firemen, police, etc., and see how much wealth it creates. The private sector creates wealth.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Perhaps because how well the government is protecting the citizen worker can depend on who is in the goverment?

And the unions, who are encouraging the lawless malefactors known as OWS, are any better? Good lord, give them guns and they would be damn near squadristi.

 

[CMatt25]

And the unions, who are encouraging the lawless malefactors known as OWS, are any better? Good lord, give them guns and they would be damn near squadristi.

Since I don’t take part in the lumping of all OWS as lawless, I’ll ignore that. But yes the unions and a huge majority of Ohio voters just did a better job Tues.

 

[Tsuwano]

We might like what the dollars get spent on, we might agree upon their purpose, but they are not creating wealth. If that were the case, then spend all tax dollars on firemen, police, etc., and see how much wealth it creates. The private sector creates wealth.

It is wrong to say that the private sector creates wealth without the aid of government. When the railroad companies laid down the rails across the continent and spurred the creation of wealth by making it easier to ship goods from coast to coast, they did so only with the protection of the military, the granting of land rights, and other incentives all provided by the government. When the government uses tax money to pave the road between your home and work place, allowing you to use your Porsche and leave your horse and buggy at home, providing you with easier and more rapid access to your place of business, it is aiding you in the creation of wealth. The relationship between the private sector and government is not mutually exclusive. It is hand and glove and the taxes we pay, however misused they may be by this mayor or that governor, support the efforts of the private sector in the creation of wealth. The private sector isn’t the only factor involved in creating wealth.

 

[seekerz]

We might like what the dollars get spent on, we might agree upon their purpose, but they are not creating wealth. If that were the case, then spend all tax dollars on firemen, police, etc., and see how much wealth it creates. The private sector creates wealth.

Wealth creation includes any and everything that goes toward preparing, assisting and maintaining the ability of a person (from birth to death) to contribute to society by means of supplying or creating products/services. In particular, this includes education and health.

I didn’t create this economic theory. The world’s major financial institutions have for the past few decades turned attention to improving health and education in underdeveloped countries. Why? Because they grew to realize that economic development depends on a healthy, educated populace.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

So we have different experiences. I respect that. I do agree that education is substandard in many places. There are multiple reasons for that, the structure of the education system and the quality of teachers being only two of those. More than anything I believe that education is in its present state because parents do not have enough (name removed by moderator)ut into their kids’ learning (either due to apathy or lack of time). Which is why this insistence (on either side of the education debate) that it is a bad system, bad schools or bad teachers which are failing our kids, is IMHO, dead wrong.

One of my older friends is a product of the NYC school system. Didn’t realize how poorly their education in the English language was until they flunked French and had to take it over in summer school. Turns out they didn’t have any “learning” in English parts of speech. Without that it was impossible to learn a foreign language. So the summer school teacher had to teach both English and French so that the kids would “get it”.

In math class, when they explained they didn’t understand some math thing, the teacher simply said, “that’s ok, nobody gets it”.

As a result of all that and other bad experiences, when they had kids, they monitored their kids’ education closely to make sure that THEIR kids didn’t miss out they way they had.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

It is wrong to say that the private sector creates wealth without the aid of government. When the railroad companies laid down the rails across the continent and spurred the creation of wealth by making it easier to ship goods from coast to coast, they did so only with the protection of the military, the granting of land rights, and other incentives all provided by the government. When the government uses tax money to pave the road between your home and work place, allowing you to use your Porsche and leave your horse and buggy at home, providing you with easier and more rapid access to your place of business, it is aiding you in the creation of wealth. The relationship between the private sector and government is not mutually exclusive. It is hand and glove and the taxes we pay, however misused they may be by this mayor or that governor, support the efforts of the private sector in the creation of wealth. The private sector isn’t the only factor involved in creating wealth.

There is a proper role for government.

The issue is: how much government?

And at what level of government?

And there are overlapping levels of government. In the USA, there are Federal, state, county, and municipal. And there may be regional “non-governments” such as river basin agencies, dormitory authorities, and port authorities; but they have taxation authority and often also have the power of eminent domain.

Roads are the function of the local municipalities and the roads are used by everyone.

To provide expedited travel, state highways were built, under state authority. When they proved insufficient, toll roads were built under various state charters.

Dirt roads function well in many situations. No need to upgrade them. When citizens demand it, the town or township may do a simple upgrade such as providing drainage ditches and drain pipes to prevent washouts, for example. OR, as has happened in rural Pennsylvania, companies drilling for natural gas used their own money to perform MAJOR upgrades of local roads … in 2011, they spent hundreds of millions of dollars … everyone was shocked by how fast the natural gas companies worked and by the high construction standards that were employed. Everyone commented on how the roads provided by the natural gas companies were much faster and better than the government provided roads and road upgrades.

Before someone examines the history of railroad construction, they need to look at previous transportation infrastructures. So, early on, and for more than one hundred years, canals dominated long haul transportation such as in New York State and in Pennsylvania. When steam engines came available in the early-mid 1800’s, everyone was fascinated by railroading and there was almost a railroad mania … every town wanted a railroad to come through. In the U.S. and other countries, they were built by private ventures.

There were many failures owing to poor economics, but people learned.

Here is how the Pennsylvania Turnpike came about in the 1900’s, using some former railroad right-of-way.

pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html

The Catholic Church has described a major controlling factor as “subsidiarity”. That is, to provide a service at the lowest government or church level possible … to be as close to the people as possible.

The Constitution of the United States describes the limitations on the central “Federal” government. So the only roads mentioned are post roads which are supposed to be part of the postal mail service system of post offices.

Education is best conducted at the local level with the teachers accountable to the parents, who can look out for [or should be looking out for] the needs of their children, and supplement with tutoring as needed based on individuality; bureaucrats who live and work in the national capital of the United States have no clue. Basically, money wasted.

The same thing applies to issues such as police and fire departments. In many cases, communities form volunteer fire companies because that form is most appropriate to the needs of that particular community. Money is raised by donations and fund raisers. For example, some towns or townships may be sparsely populated and widely spread out; as a result, the water supply systems do not cover all of the roads; so they solve the problem by purchasing fleets of tanker trucks to ferry water from ponds and lakes. It may not appeal to city-dwellers, but they have determined by experience what works for them at the local level. And NO taxation is needed. Similar reasoning applies to local policing. Often, communities contract out to the county or to the state for policing and for prison services. It depends on the local need and on the costs and on the responsiveness required.

The same thing applies to water systems. The local communities have been providing local water supplies for a couple of hundred years or longer in the United States. The local elected officials discuss with the citizenry and move ahead as needed. It works well. When central Federal bureaucrats get involved, they tend to seek universal standards, even in situations where they may not be appropriate. Each community is different, but the central government is not geared toward recognizing local differences.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There is a proper role for government.

The issue is: how much government?

And at what level of government?

And there are overlapping levels of government. In the USA, there are Federal, state, county, and municipal. And there may be regional “non-governments” such as river basin agencies, dormitory authorities, and port authorities; but they have taxation authority and often also have the power of eminent domain.

Roads are the function of the local municipalities and the roads are used by everyone.

To provide expedited travel, state highways were built, under state authority. When they proved insufficient, toll roads were built under various state charters.

Dirt roads function well in many situations. No need to upgrade them. When citizens demand it, the town or township may do a simple upgrade such as providing drainage ditches and drain pipes to prevent washouts, for example. OR, as has happened in rural Pennsylvania, companies drilling for natural gas used their own money to perform MAJOR upgrades of local roads … in 2011, they spent hundreds of millions of dollars … everyone was shocked by how fast the natural gas companies worked and by the high construction standards that were employed. Everyone commented on how the roads provided by the natural gas companies were much faster and better than the government provided roads and road upgrades.

Before someone examines the history of railroad construction, they need to look at previous transportation infrastructures. So, early on, and for more than one hundred years, canals dominated long haul transportation such as in New York State and in Pennsylvania. When steam engines came available in the early-mid 1800’s, everyone was fascinated by railroading and there was almost a railroad mania … every town wanted a railroad to come through. In the U.S. and other countries, they were built by private ventures.

There were many failures owing to poor economics, but people learned.

Here is one history of turnpikes:

whitemountainhistory.org/Early_Turnpikes_and_Road.html

If you google “earliest turnpike”, there are descriptions of turnpikes in England going back to the 1600’s.

Here is how the Pennsylvania Turnpike came about in the 1900’s, using some former railroad right-of-way.

pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html

The Catholic Church has described a major controlling factor as “subsidiarity”. That is, to provide a service at the lowest government or church level possible … to be as close to the people as possible.

The Constitution of the United States describes the limitations on the central “Federal” government. So the only roads mentioned are post roads which are supposed to be part of the postal mail service system of post offices.

Education is best conducted at the local level with the teachers accountable to the parents, who can look out for [or should be looking out for] the needs of their children, and supplement with tutoring as needed based on individuality; bureaucrats who live and work in the national capital of the United States have no clue. Basically, money wasted.

The same thing applies to issues such as police and fire departments. In many cases, communities form volunteer fire companies because that form is most appropriate to the needs of that particular community. Money is raised by donations and fund raisers. For example, some towns or townships may be sparsely populated and widely spread out; as a result, the water supply systems do not cover all of the roads; so they solve the problem by purchasing fleets of tanker trucks to ferry water from ponds and lakes. It may not appeal to city-dwellers, but they have determined by experience what works for them at the local level. And NO taxation is needed. Similar reasoning applies to local policing. Often, communities contract out to the county or to the state for policing and for prison services. It depends on the local need and on the costs and on the responsiveness required.

The same thing applies to water systems. The local communities have been providing local water supplies for a couple of hundred years or longer in the United States. The local elected officials discuss with the citizenry and move ahead as needed. It works well. When central Federal bureaucrats get involved, they tend to seek universal standards, even in situations where they may not be appropriate. Each community is different, but the central government is not geared toward recognizing local differences.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Sorry for going on and on.

But it is important to know how the present system of various public services evolved.

They evolved based on as the needs evolved.

This part of my post above got cut due to time constraints:

Here is one history of turnpikes:

whitemountainhistory.org/Earl…_and_Road.html

If you google “earliest turnpike”, there are descriptions of turnpikes in England going back to the 1600’s.

Here is how the Pennsylvania Turnpike came about in the 1900’s, using some former railroad right-of-way.

pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html

The Catholic Church has described a major controlling factor as “subsidiarity”. That is, to provide a service at the lowest government or church level possible … to be as close to the people as possible.

Airline service was a private venture by individuals. Airports were fields also owned by individuals. For example, Newark Liberty International Airport was originally owned by one individual, but eventually the city “lusted” after it and took it by eminent domain. The father of one of my classmates was the original owner. Because of the way it was taken, he did not do well on the “transaction”. Eventually, it was acquired by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

When there were financial problems with the early system, the postal system stepped in to take advantage of high speed delivery. There were many technical and weather issues but the high speed available and the premium prices the post office charged for “air mail” … a new service, made it attractive. [You used to have to pay a hefty premium for “air mail”]

At one point, for political reasons, the national government stepped in and had the U.S. Army fly the mail; however, the Army lacked the specialized technical skills needed and there was a huge number of spectacular fatal plane crashes. So, the government got out of the flying business and instead set up the Civil Aeronautics Board to regulate air commerce. It turned out to be a nightmare of rules and regulations. And after many years of criticism, the CAB was disbanded and, shockingly, the airlines responded with competitive ventures with the result of much lower fares and higher volumes of service. There were complaints on the quality of airline service, but when the airlines offered high quality of service, no one was willing to pay for it. What happened was that when travelers were willing to pay for high quality service, either they flew in first class or they chartered or purchased their own planes so they could fly at the times of their choosing and also not be limited to the relative few airline airports.

Airlines service a couple of hundred airports in the United States [actual number is around 400]; but there are closer to 20.000 airports overall of differing sizes and amenities.

airlines.org/ATAResources/AirportsQA/pages/airportsqa.aspx

 

[shockerfan]

It is wrong to say that the private sector creates wealth without the aid of government. When the railroad companies laid down the rails across the continent and spurred the creation of wealth by making it easier to ship goods from coast to coast, they did so only with the protection of the military, the granting of land rights, and other incentives all provided by the government. When the government uses tax money to pave the road between your home and work place, allowing you to use your Porsche and leave your horse and buggy at home, providing you with easier and more rapid access to your place of business, it is aiding you in the creation of wealth. The relationship between the private sector and government is not mutually exclusive. It is hand and glove and the taxes we pay, however misused they may be by this mayor or that governor, support the efforts of the private sector in the creation of wealth. The private sector isn’t the only factor involved in creating wealth.

I did NOT say that private sector creates wealth without the aid of government. I said the private sector creates wealth. That is a factual statement.

I am not disparaging those who support wealth creation, simply making a point that government does not create wealth. If government created wealth, the MORE government would create MORE wealth. If that was the case then lets tax everybody at 100%, grow government to be as big as possible, and we would have maximum wealth creation, right?

 

[shockerfan]

Wealth creation includes any and everything that goes toward preparing, assisting and maintaining the ability of a person (from birth to death) to contribute to society by means of supplying or creating products/services. In particular, this includes education and health.

I didn’t create this economic theory. The world’s major financial institutions have for the past few decades turned attention to improving health and education in underdeveloped countries. Why? Because they grew to realize that economic development depends on a healthy, educated populace.

the “supplying or creating (and selling) products / services” is wealth creation. Everything else you describe supports wealth creation. You are actually agreeing with me the more you write.

Government plays a supportive role, but not always. For example, there are websites with a whole host of pork barrel projects that don’t support wealth creation, just the destruction of wealth. Also, certain policies they enact can destroy wealth.

Monte RCMS is asking the right questions: How much government and what level of goverment?

Again, if you believe government creates wealth, then you should believe more government creates more wealth. So we should make government as big as possible so as to maximize wealth.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Writer at National Review calls Republicans, “the stupid party” for their failure to communicate.

nationalreview.com/corner/282742/why-o-why-o-michael-walsh

 

[Tsuwano]

I did NOT say that private sector creates wealth without the aid of government. I said the private sector creates wealth. That is a factual statement.

I am not disparaging those who support wealth creation, simply making a point that government does not create wealth. If government created wealth, the MORE government would create MORE wealth. If that was the case then lets tax everybody at 100%, grow government to be as big as possible, and we would have maximum wealth creation, right?

I know what you said. My point is that the private sector, though it does create wealth, does not create wealth by itself. It often utilizes the power, wealth and assets of government in order to create that wealth. Both government and the private sector have a role to play in the creation of wealth. You can’t really talk about creating wealth without visualizing government and private enterprise working together. This is part of what President Coolidge meant when he said “The business of America is business.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

Perhaps because how well the government is protecting the citizen worker can depend on who is in the goverment?

You said it.

Anybody see the irony here?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am not disparaging those who support wealth creation, simply making a point that government does not create wealth. If government created wealth, the MORE government would create MORE wealth. If that was the case then lets tax everybody at 100%, grow government to be as big as possible, and we would have maximum wealth creation, right?

In other words, profits create wealth.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Uhhhh… there is wealth in Somalia missed that in the National Geo.

Oh, I love remedial education. There is a huge difference between well-being, which one can have with some rags, a plastic tent, a campfire, and some roasted vermin as victuals and ….wealth. Wealth is things like tasty food, dry goods, houses, fuel, transportation, entertainment, et cetera. It is grown, mined, built, and transported all the other things associated with wealth are really service oriented.

Governments are for providing security and justice like locking up bad guys<= had to be specific for the ecconomic justice crowd because there ain’t none of that.

Just wanted to bump this as it was conveniently ignored.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Writer at National Review calls Republicans, “the stupid party” for their failure to communicate.

nationalreview.com/corner/282742/why-o-why-o-michael-walsh

Newt Gingrich could help here. He is a masterful communicator. But I agree, Republicans have always been heavy on substance and light on the message. Democrats are all about the razzle dazzle, but there is no meat on the plate.

 

[seekerz]

You are actually agreeing with me the more you write.

Only if you snip off my sentences. I said ***anything which goes toward preparing *** an individual to do the supplying/creating…

Separating the notion of supportive roles, from active roles is creating an artificial division if the activity is not possible without the support. Wealth creation is inseparable from good governance.