Ohio Voters Reject Public-Union Curbs

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human_being said:
Is the bold print some kind of class envy…If the private sector workers were union in them same jobs…they’d probably make more…The intent on the attack of these public workers is class envy…The Koch brothers and co…want the middle class to turn on their equals in trade…they are taking advatage of the downturn in the economy and are putting the unemployed against the public workers…They have a right to a contract and what was signed…They have a right to collective bargain…They are not volunteers, elected , nor are they slaves…The koch brothers are on a mission to take the SAME amount of taxes you spend now…and privatize everything so they and their types can take it over…the taxes will not drop…only employee pay and benefits and rights will…The few benefit from the many…as is their usual game.
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And you base your analysis of this eeeevil Koch brothers scheme on the objective proof from…🤷

Sure, people have a RIGHT to that contractual agreement, but if they are unwilling to budge, and the city, county, or state files bankruptcy, I’m sure it’s still all for “the little guy”.

bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-02/central-falls-bankruptcy-driven-by-pensions-casts-shadow-over-rhode-island.html

Then, instead of getting reduced benefits, they will get nothing.

It’s not class envy saying someone is overpaid WHEN IT’S YOUR MONEY BEING USED TO PAY THEM.

Do you see a difference?

“Goldman Sach execs are paid too much.”
Answer: “So don’t patronize Goldman Sachs”.

“Public sector pensions are unsustainable”
Answer: “Why do you hate unions???”
 
scipio337 said:
And you base your analysis of this eeeevil Koch brothers scheme on the objective proof from…🤷

Sure, people have a RIGHT to that contractual agreement, but if they are unwilling to budge, and the city, county, or state files bankruptcy, I’m sure it’s still all for “the little guy”.

bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-02/central-falls-bankruptcy-driven-by-pensions-casts-shadow-over-rhode-island.html

Then, instead of getting reduced benefits, they will get nothing.

It’s not class envy saying someone is overpaid WHEN IT’S YOUR MONEY BEING USED TO PAY THEM.

Do you see a difference?

“Goldman Sach execs are paid too much.”
Answer: “So don’t patronize Goldman Sachs”.

“Public sector pensions are unsustainable”
Answer: “Why do you hate unions???”
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Unions are monopolies. They skew free-market checks and balances.
 
qui_est_ce said:
Unions are monopolies. They skew free-market checks and balances.
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In the case of private companies, they represent capitalist free market s at their finest. Two self interested parties enter into negotions: the employer with the power of the purse, and the union with the power of creating a scarcity of goods (labor) through a strike.

If the UAW can’t afford it’s pension, or benefits, they either renegotiate it with the employer, or the employer goes bankrupt, and they get nothing.

If a private union can’t afford its pension, they can just bilk the taxpayer for more money.

I think Ann Coulter put it best:

“The need for a union comes down to this question: Do you have a boss who wants you to work harder for less money? In the private sector, the answer is yes. In the public sector, the answer is a big, fat NO.”
 
human_being said:
Is the bold print some kind of class envy…If the private sector workers were union in them same jobs…they’d probably make more…The intent on the attack of these public workers is class envy…
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NO! The private union members can make whatever they can negotiate. I don’t care. The issue is PUBLIC unions. It is immoral to to expect taxpayers to work harder, have less of a retirement, in order for THEIR TAX DOLLARS to be confiscated so that a government employee with similar job responsibilities can have a better retirement. Those wages and benefits, in many cases, are a result of political paybacks (i.e. “you vote me in, and I’ll give you higher wages and benefits”)

Its not class envy, its about an absolutely immoral situation. If the wages were on par with the private sector (meaning they were paid at “fair market value”), then there would be no issue.
 
shockerfan said:
NO! The private union members can make whatever they can negotiate. I don’t care. The issue is PUBLIC unions. It is immoral to to expect taxpayers to work harder, have less of a retirement, in order for THEIR TAX DOLLARS to be confiscated so that a government employee with similar job responsibilities can have a better retirement. Those wages and benefits, in many cases, are a result of political paybacks (i.e. “you vote me in, and I’ll give you higher wages and benefits”)

Its not class envy, its about an absolutely immoral situation. If the wages were on par with the private sector (meaning they were paid at “fair market value”), then there would be no issue.
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Not to mention, many of these same unions donate to the political campaigns of the very politicians who take part in the one-sided “negotiations”.

opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

3 of the top 10 are PUBLIC sector unions.
 
shockerfan said:
NO! The private union members can make whatever they can negotiate. I don’t care. The issue is PUBLIC unions. It is immoral to to expect taxpayers to work harder, have less of a retirement, in order for THEIR TAX DOLLARS to be confiscated so that a government employee with similar job responsibilities can have a better retirement. Those wages and benefits, in many cases, are a result of political paybacks (i.e. “you vote me in, and I’ll give you higher wages and benefits”)

Its not class envy, its about an absolutely immoral situation. If the wages were on par with the private sector (meaning they were paid at “fair market value”), then there would be no issue.
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If everybody got “overpaid” i.e., private workers paid as much as public sector union employees, prices would naturally go up as the labor goes up. And everybody’s purchase power would be in the same place.🤷
 
human_being said:
Is the bold print some kind of class envy…If the private sector workers were union in them same jobs…they’d probably make more…The intent on the attack of these public workers is class envy…The Koch brothers and co…want the middle class to turn on their equals in trade…they are taking advatage of the downturn in the economy and are putting the unemployed against the public workers…They have a right to a contract and what was signed…They have a right to collective bargain…They are not volunteers, elected , nor are they slaves…The koch brothers are on a mission to take the SAME amount of taxes you spend now…and privatize everything so they and their types can take it over…the taxes will not drop…only employee pay and benefits and rights will…The few benefit from the many…as is their usual game.
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 Class envy? That's ridiculous. The salient point I am making is that government union pay, benefits and pensions have gotten so out of kilter that people are being driven from their homes. Is this fine with you? This is reality in America 2011. Governments refuse to accept what people are able to pay. They demand blood, and it's a terrible struggle for many families to subsist.
 BTW, I don't consider teachers, tax collectors or any other government sector workers to be one iota better than anyone else in "class". They are very fortunate to be immune to many of the woes afflicting everyone else in Obamaville, and many don't appreciate that fact. BTW#2, who has more honor, the Koch Bros, or George Soros, who hates God and has made his billions breaking currencies? :confused: Rob
 
Studies state that government workers make , on average, more money than private. BUT, private workers include teenagers frying hamburgers and retirees working part time handing out carts. No similar jobs in the government. Every year under every president (Dem and Rep) there is a review board comparing similar jobs. In this case while the Heritage Foundation stated that a mailman makes more than an assembly worker (two jobs not comparable) a mailman makes less than a UPS driver. Studies showed government make about 10% less than comparable workers.
Also, government employees pay a greater percentage of their retirement then most private industry. Nevertheless, governpors and presidents have raided the retirement funds. It needs to be repaid. If it still bothers that some of your taxes support pension does it bother you when you buy groceries and pay for utilities part of your bill pays for retirements?
 
wondrousgnat said:
Also, government employees pay a greater percentage of their retirement then most private industry. Nevertheless, governpors and presidents have raided the retirement funds. It needs to be repaid. If it still bothers that some of your taxes support pension does it bother you when you buy groceries and pay for utilities part of your bill pays for retirements?
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What is a retirement?
 
qui_est_ce said:
What is a retirement?
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I think a “Retirement” could best be described as when your employer tells you that “we’re going to pay you not to come to work anymore”. I can’t wait until my employer tells me that someday. 🙂
 
scipio337 said:
If the UAW can’t afford it’s pension, or benefits, they either renegotiate it with the employer, or the employer goes bankrupt, and they get nothing. "
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Now what you write is common sense, and what we were all taught about business. However, if you study history - very recent history - the unions lost nothing when GM went bankrupt. (Well, I think they screwed one electrical union) The stock owners lost everything. The non-union workers (engineers, secretaries) lost part of their pensions, but the union lost nothing.

Current history teaches us that when businesses go bankrupt, the stock owners lose everything while the company keeps all its assets and its executives all their salaries. I wonder if that’s why people are having second thoughts about buying stock. Stockholders are not owners of the company, they’re poor saps playing hot potato and hoping they don’t get caught with the stock when the music stops. Not the way it is supposed to be.
 
wondrousgnat said:
Studies state that government workers make , on average, more money than private. BUT, private workers include teenagers frying hamburgers and retirees working part time handing out carts. No similar jobs in the government. Every year under every president (Dem and Rep) there is a review board comparing similar jobs. In this case while the Heritage Foundation stated that a mailman makes more than an assembly worker (two jobs not comparable) a mailman makes less than a UPS driver. Studies showed government make about 10% less than comparable workers.
Also, government employees pay a greater percentage of their retirement then most private industry. Nevertheless, governpors and presidents have raided the retirement funds. It needs to be repaid. If it still bothers that some of your taxes support pension does it bother you when you buy groceries and pay for utilities part of your bill pays for retirements?
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 Bottom line: America is dying. Did you ever see how hard UPS employees work? You may cite statistics, but I know in my area, Scranton, government workers make a fortune compared to private sector. Small business owners are killed by regs and taxes and LONG hours. Don't believe me?  Start a small business. 
 Honestly, it's shocking to me that even a single American could be optimistic about the future, given the corrupt BHO administration and the spending into bankruptcy insanity. I try to concentrate on sports and music to avoid full-fledged depression. :rolleyes: Rob
 
RACJ said:
Bottom line: America is dying. Did you ever see how hard UPS employees work? You may cite statistics, but I know in my area, Scranton, government workers make a fortune compared to private sector. Small business owners are killed by regs and taxes and LONG hours. Don’t believe me? Start a small business.
Honestly, it’s shocking to me that even a single American could be optimistic about the future, given the corrupt BHO administration and the spending into bankruptcy insanity. I try to concentrate on sports and music to avoid full-fledged depression. :rolleyes: Rob
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those in favor of public service unions don’t really care. Its all about maximizing their gold plated pensions, and to heck with everybody else.
 
RACJ said:
Bottom line: America is dying. Did you ever see how hard UPS employees work? You may cite statistics, but I know in my area, Scranton, government workers make a fortune compared to private sector. Small business owners are killed by regs and taxes and LONG hours. Don’t believe me? Start a small business.
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Can you give us some examples of what you feel are onerous regulations? Taxes I understand and if i understand you correctly long hours are hours put in by the owner?
 
gamewell45 said:
I think a “Retirement” could best be described as when your employer tells you that “we’re going to pay you not to come to work anymore”. I can’t wait until my employer tells me that someday. 🙂
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Well, my employer makes me work for pay. :o

I do have an IRA, though.🙂
 
scipio337 said:
An IRA isn’t an employer run retirement fund.

Its an Individual Retirement Account (IRA).
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I never considered that, but your right. I would assume that it would give you more control over your funds as opposed to a company-sponsored 401.k
 
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