OK, I Am Confused. Do Mormons Believe In The Trinity?

[mormonboy]

You feel this way because the god you believe in was once a human. He is not God eternal. Maybe God does have additional plans for us once in Heaven but I do not presume to know this.

Yes I have read parts of the BOM, I was LDS for 18 years. I have come from a long line of LDS members. In fact Brigham Young is a direct relative. My grandparents have done 5 missions since retiring. Most of my relatives live in Utah and claim the LDS faith. I do not blindly discuss these matters. Frankly, I could never finish it–I always felt when reading that it was phony.

Since becoming Catholic I have been hounded by missionaries, ex-communicated, had my marriage sealed by proxy, told I am going to outer-darkness because I am making such poor decisions in this life by becoming Catholic, told that I would be sealed to another man and so would my children. It seems to me that the LDS have provisions to make sure in all situations you will end up in the “best place” to point that after a person’s death they can still be saved by those on earth. That indicates that the belief is that once LDS you are on par with God Himself.

Doesn’t the belief that living with God in heaven forever mean that you would be eternal? We are not eternal now, but our bodies will be perfected through Christ’s sacrifice and be made eternal.

 

[LDSGuy]

I was told that my marriage ‘would’ be sealed not that it was done. As the ‘these Mormons’ not understanding our eschatology–does it mean that it has changed since I was LDS? When I was going to the LDS Church in the late 80’s I was taught that there are 3 levels of heaven Celestial, Terestial and Telestial and for those unfortunate enough to not make it into one of the three there was Outer Darkness. As they who explained it since I was LDS and understand the true teachings and chose to turn from them then I would be cast into outer darkness.

Too many esoteric teachings in the LDS church.

It hasn’t changed, but based on our beliefs, I don’t think that you would be in danger of Outer Darkness unless you had a true witness of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and deliberately turned away from them. Of course we’ll leave it up to God, but if we understand who goes to Outer Darkness, I think that those Mormons did not understand our eschatology.

 

[LDSGuy]

So you can embrace evil truly and with your whole being and still be saved? HMMMM.
Then what is the point of trying to follow Christ in this world?

Do you remember the differences between the Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial Kingdoms, and Outer Darkness, and who would be brought to each?

 

[mormonboy]

So you can embrace evil truly and with your whole being and still be saved? HMMMM.
Then what is the point of trying to follow Christ in this world?

I never said that, but i find it hard to believe God will punish us the same way by sending us to hell eternally for embracing one evil act. We are judged fairly according to our own acts and rewarded in the same manner.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I think Jeffrey R. Holland, Quorum of the twelves says it best…

"Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures "

"We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] . . . seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus . . . being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16"

And I believe that the Bishops at the Council of Nicaea said it best and correctly:

** We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
 And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the       only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;**

No matter what leader of the LDS have said or will say, to say that there is are at least 3 gods ( no matter how united in purpose they are) is polytheistic. it is anti scriptural.

Christ said I and the Father are one. He did not say I and the Father act as one.
This is not even taking into account that under LDS way of thinking that your godhead is only 3 of how many other gods. For your Heavenly Father was once man an progressed to godhood. Who was his creator?

Bother, I realize that it is hard to see past what we have been taught. But what the LDS teaching ask is for a person to discount Christendom prior to J Smith. Paul did not even ask that we do that of Jewish teaching.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Do you remember the differences between the Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial Kingdoms, and Outer Darkness, and who would be brought to each?

To a Catholic, or any Christian, there is:

With God
Not with God

With God = heaven
Not with God = hell

Mormons:

Celestial - With God
Terrestial - Not with God
Telestial - Not with God

Celestial = heaven
Terrestial = hell
Telestial = hell

You have one heaven, and different levels of hell.

 

[mormonboy]

And I believe that the Bishops at the Council of Nicaea said it best and correctly:

** We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
 And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the       only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;**

No matter what leader of the LDS have said or will say, to say that there is are at least 3 gods ( no matter how united in purpose they are) is polytheistic. it is anti scriptural.

Christ said I and the Father are one. He did not say I and the Father act as one.
This is not even taking into account that under LDS way of thinking that your godhead is only 3 of how many other gods. For your Heavenly Father was once man an progressed to godhood. Who was his creator?

Bother, I realize that it is hard to see past what we have been taught. But what the LDS teaching ask is for a person to discount Christendom prior to J Smith. Paul did not even ask that we do that of Jewish teaching.

Do you know what the nicene creed is? Do you know how it came about? Because the people in the council declared God and Jesus are one, you are going to believe it?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I never said that, but i find it hard to believe God will punish us the same way by sending us to hell eternally for embracing one evil act. We are judged fairly according to our own acts and rewarded in the same manner.

God will not condone sin. no matter how great or how small if it is just one or many sins it merits Hell. We are saved from that by Jesus Death and Resurrection on the Cross he took all sin upon himself. Therefore when we stand before the thrown for Judgment and our sins are laid before us Jesus will at that point for those that have believed in him and tried to live without sin and asked for his saving grace he will say My child I see not your sins. Be for the ones that do not, well do I really to say it.

We are all the Prodical Sons of God and are only hope it to come back to God and the son did to his father hoping only to be threaded as well as a servant. If we are able to do Jesus tells us we will walk into the loving arms of the Fathers embrace.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Do you know what the nicene creed is?

Yes I know what the Creed is I say it most everyday.

Do you know how it came about?

it came about to fight heresy regarding the nature of God and Jesus.

Because the people in the council declared God and Jesus are one, you are going to believe it

?

Over believing J Smith that they are not? Yes I will believe the council as the teaching a lines with Scripture and what has been held True since god made himself known to man. As God says he is the the only Lord, It follows that if Jesus is lord he and the father must be one.

To believe other wise it to say God lied to Moses.

 

[appaloosablue]

To a Catholic, or any Christian, there is:

With God
Not with God

With God = heaven
Not with God = hell

Mormons:

Celestial - With God
Terrestial - Not with God
Telestial - Not with God

Celestial = heaven
Terrestial = hell
Telestial = hell

You have one heaven, and different levels of hell.

Beautiful:thumbsup:

 

[mormonboy]

Yes I know what the Creed is I say it most everyday. it came about to fight heresy regarding the nature of God and Jesus. ?

Over believing J Smith that they are not? Yes I will believe the council as the teaching a lines with Scripture and what has been held True since god made himself known to man. As God says he is the the only Lord, It follows that if Jesus is lord he and the father must be one.

To believe other wise it to say God lied to Moses.

Your comment about God lying to Moses has nothing to do with what you just said. Moses has something that Constantine or any of the bishops of the 3rd/4th century has, that is a first hand account of God. Joseph Smith has this same claim…

The council was a group of bishops who got together to determine the nature of God. Do you think there was no disputes among them? Reportedly there was around 2000 present… They based a general idea of God based on their own understanding of scripture. Keep in mind more reformations were made reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed.

Your telling me you would trust this council from the 4th century over many firsthand witnesses?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

mormonboy;5057390]Your comment about God lying to Moses has nothing to do with what you just said.

It has everything to do with Moses as God spoke to Moses about he being the Only God. Not one of three like minded gods.

Moses has something that Constantine or any of the bishops of the 3rd/4th century has, that is a first hand account of God.

Well Constantine was not a Bishop and not at the Council. Yes Moses did have fist hand Eye witness knowledge of God.

Joseph Smith has this same claim…

See here lies the big problem I ain’t buying that one. He had something, but pretty sure it was not a face to face with God.

T

he council was a group of bishops who got together to determine the nature of God. Do you think there was no disputes among them?

Of course there were disputes they were all men. It would be hard for 2 let alone all to agree, but in the end the Holy Ghost did lead them to agreement. .

They based a general idea of God based on their own understanding of scripture. Keep in mind more reformations were made reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed.

I believe that the Athanasian Creed was written prior to the Nicean , but reguardless they do not contradict but compliment one another.

Your telling me you would trust this council from the 4th century over many firsthand witnesses?

Over what J Smith says yes I trust the Council. I mean the BOM as scripture is like saying The Chronicles of Narnia are yet another testament and therefore scripture.

 

[mormonboy]

Over what J Smith says yes I trust the Council. I mean the BOM as scripture is like saying The Chronicles of Narnia are yet another testament and therefore scripture.

Not going to lie… You made me laugh with this comparison. C.S. Lewis and Joseph Smith have different stories… Altough Lewis a great christian, I have never heard him claim a vision of God and Jesus Christ. The validity of the BOM lies on Joseph Smith’s vision.

What is it that convinces you so much about Moses’ one on one contact with God? I don’t know if there are any factual evidences of Moses’ existence but I wonder if you are of those people who believe in something merely because it is in the bible.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Over what J Smith says yes I trust the Council. I mean the BOM as scripture is like saying The Chronicles of Narnia are yet another testament and therefore scripture.

Not going to lie… You made me laugh with this comparison. C.S. Lewis and Joseph Smith have different stories… Altough Lewis a great christian, I have never heard him claim a vision of God and Jesus Christ. The validity of the BOM lies on Joseph Smith’s vision.

What is it that convinces you so much about Moses’ one on one contact with God? I don’t know if there are any factual evidences of Moses’ existence but I wonder if you are of those people who believe in something merely because it is in the bible.

Secular history tells us that that at some point the Hebrews were in Egypt and then they were not. From there we have only the Bible, and some 4000 year later or so give or take Jesus confirms it In the New testament.
Oh by the way I do pretty much believe what the Bible says at face value. And I thank God for the Church to help in the dicernment of what it means.

 

[cothrige]

I never said that, but** i find it hard to believe God will punish us the same way by sending us to hell eternally for embracing one evil act**. We are judged fairly according to our own acts and rewarded in the same manner.

I hear this argument from a lot of people. How can a loving God condemn people to hell? Silly, because of course he does no such thing. God wills that all men be saved. However, he has created us in his own image, which means that we have free will. That is important because if God forced us to love him, we couldn’t choose to love him. And to be forced to love is not to love at all. Some people in this life will of course hate the only Good, which is God, and to do that is to choose evil. How can you be happy if you reject the only cause of happiness in the universe? But, does God condemn them for their choice? How could he, since he forgives anything short of refusing forgiveness? He doesn’t condemn us, we condemn ourselves. This argument that God “sends people to hell” is like a man jumping overboard in shark infested waters, who refuses to take a rope, or get into a lifeboat, and kills the men sent to help him, and then insists that the Captain of the ship has condemned him to death.

 

[CJ_Nick]

The council was a group of bishops who got together to determine the nature of God. Do you think there was no disputes among them? Reportedly there was around 2000 present… They based a general idea of God based on their own understanding of scripture. Keep in mind more reformations were made reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed.

Your telling me you would trust this council from the 4th century over many firsthand witnesses?

Hi Mormonboy,

I am not being contentious, I just wanted to share a few things to offer a slightly different perspective ( I do appreciate you sharing your perspective ).

The council of Nicea was not a group of Bishops who got together to determine the nature of God. They were assembled ( due to Arius and others) to clarify the Church Teachings and reject much of the ongoing heretical teachings that took place in the early Church.

I will grant you that it indeed was probably something to witness ( fly on the wall as they say ) but they did not make up " new " teachings, rather indeed confirmed, cemented, and provided direction that was absolutly consistent with the previous held beliefs and teachings of the early Church Fathers.

At any rate, I do appreciate your contributions as well as the respectful manner you have offered them.

Peace my brother
CJ

 

[mormonboy]

He doesn’t condemn us, we condemn ourselves. This argument that God “sends people to hell” is like a man jumping overboard in shark infested waters, who refuses to take a rope, or get into a lifeboat, and kills the men sent to help him, and then insists that the Captain of the ship has condemned him to death.

I believe that fully… Maybe I phrased that the wrong way…

That wasn’t the point of my post. We were discussing the difference in understanding between heaven and hell. I, as an LDs, cannot find any reason as to why there would only be a heaven and a hell. Does God just draw a line and say this half goes to hell and this to heaven? It seems unjust for we all committ sin of different degrees.

 

[cothrige]

You don’t refer to a married couple usually as humans. You usually refer to them as “a family.” One family. Similarly, when you unify the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost together they are “one God.”

Your analogy does not fit though. You don’t call the Godhead a family, but God. In that example that is not the equivalent of the word family, but of human. That is why I chose that analogy. The word Godhead is the equivalent of family, and I don’t quibble about that. It is the insistence that the Godhead be called God that I find inconsistent. I can’t help but think perhaps it is a fear of being called polytheists that makes people avoid calling three Gods by the proper English term Gods.

Though technically correct, it is probably not proper to refer to them as “gods.” To do so, minimizes their perfect unity and presupposes that they might use their authority independent of one another. They are one God, as the Book of Mormon teaches constantly.

That means, as far as I can tell, that saying God would then be technically incorrect. And given your position on the Trinity, which does profess a singularity of being, regarding “1+1+1=3 except when it doesn’t” I am surprised you would be so comfortable with using God in reference to the LDS Godhead.

At this point I will admit to you that I am far less versed in Hebrew than I would like to be. However, I know this: Elohim is a title. It is both a plural word and a singular depending on the context. In the singular, it may refer to God the Father alone due to the fact that he is accurately described as “God” and “Head of the Gods.” It may also appropriately refer, though less often, to the “Godhead” or the plurality of beings known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

This is one of those words that Hebrew scholars could spend years studying, but we don’t have that much time.

I still don’t think the word God, as LDS use it, would be connected to any Hebrew. There are Hebrew words you could use, but you don’t. While Elohim may be able to mean all these things there is no denying or getting around that you don’t say Elohim, or any Hebrew word, but instead say God. God isn’t a plural or a singular depending on the instance. It is always singular. And saying God instead of Gods means that you are at the least implying the existence of one being, which you specifically deny. It really does seem very self-contradicting to take the position the LDS do on the Godhead, and then choose to use the singular form God to refer to it.

BTW, Scriptorian, I am confident that I won’t convince you of anything on this, and I am not trying to browbeat you about it. I brought the subject up only to ask about what seemed to me to be an inconsistency. I am quite convinced that I was right in that. But, in any case, I have enjoyed the give and take on it so far, and I wanted to thank you for taking the time to discuss it with me.

 

[mormonboy]

Hi Mormonboy,

I am not being contentious, I just wanted to share a few things to offer a slightly different perspective ( I do appreciate you sharing your perspective ).

The council of Nicea was not a group of Bishops who got together to determine the nature of God. They were assembled ( due to Arius and others) to clarify the Church Teachings and reject much of the ongoing heretical teachings that took place in the early Church.

I will grant you that it indeed was probably something to witness ( fly on the wall as they say ) but they did not make up " new " teachings, rather indeed confirmed, cemented, and provided direction that was absolutly consistent with the previous held beliefs and teachings of the early Church Fathers.

At any rate, I do appreciate your contributions as well as the respectful manner you have offered them.

Peace my brother
CJ

Sorry for providing such a watered down version of the council. Thank you for your corrections.

Either way, I still consider each person in the council a human being with no evidence they were being inspired by God. They are human, subject to mistakes, I am frightened to put my personal belief in the opinion of another person. does that make sense?

Another poster said the Holy Spirit guided them to come up with the final beliefs. In your beliefs, how does the spirit make itself manifest?

 

[Scriptorian]

We can understand to a point but we cannot understand it fully in this life. Perhaps in Heaven once in the presence of God we will be able to fully understand it.

Do you understand where Heaven is, can you draw me a map to it? Do you full understand the location of Heaven?

In fact I do. It is standard Mormon Doctrine and found in the most famous sermon of the Savior, the Sermon on the Mount. That may cause a giant tangent here, so maybe we should open a new forum before beginning the discussion.