OK, I Am Confused. Do Mormons Believe In The Trinity?

[Irish_Kathy]

Mormons do not accept the Biblical view of the Trinity. hey say they do but the three member of their trinity are not the same one God as the Bible teaches. Their trinty are 3 separate Gods. They are created beings and eternal.

They also believe that Jesus, unlike most Christians, is not true God and True man. They believe that He is in fact, if I have it correctly, half God and half man.

 

[kikkichan]

Mormons do not accept the Biblical view of the Trinity. hey say they do but the three member of their trinity are not the same one God as the Bible teaches. Their trinty are 3 separate Gods. They are created beings and eternal.

DLCLARK,

Good point! The Mormon “Heavenly Father” may have attained “god-like” attributes, but at some point he did not exist. He came into existence during his own spirit-birth (and subsequently a human-birth). During this time he could “make mistakes” and was dependent on others, presumably “his heavenly father”.

-kc

 

[Irish_Kathy]

DLCLARK,

Good point! The Mormon “Heavenly Father” may have attained “god-like” attributes, but at some point he did not exist. He came into existence during his own spirit-birth (and subsequently a human-birth). During this time he could “make mistakes” and was dependent on others, presumably “his heavenly father”.

-kc

They also believe that there is a Heavenly Mother of some sort, but it’s not Mary, she was just a one time vessel.

 

[kikkichan]

Yes, that verse says “My Father and I are one.” But the verse immediately preceding that one says “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

He obviously separated Himself from His Father there; after all, He did not say “I gave them to myself,” did He? Therefore if He and His Father are One, it’s obviously not in the way you are presenting. In fact, in that same book, John, chapter 17, He expands upon this: He says, in a prayer directed to His Father (and if they are one, why is He praying to Himself?)
…

Dianaid,

Sorry if this already came up. but it’s a mystery. We can understand some things about a mystery, but not all. I agree, if Jesus and the Father are one then it seems that Jesus must be praying to himself. But our logic struggles with that. If they’re “one in substance” the three persons can then have a relationship with each other. This is what I’m taught, but it’s still maybe one too many for my head, but at least then Jesus isn’t praying to himself.

Then I have let go of that for second and think about if there are three substances, but with one in purpose. What is the force that keeps that one purpose united. I suppose they could all agree, but is it possible, being three substances, that they could choose not to agree. Is one in charge? Do the others yield to that one’s authority? And then on top of that I think about the fact that each had to born, or created. Is their creator the one actually in charge?

Anyway, it usually hurts when I try figure this out----thought I’d mention it though.

And oh by the way, Jesus has two natures, one divine, one human, His subordinate role the Father, (e.g., the Father is greater than I, …) is for our benefit … IMHO…

-kc

 

[majick275]

That would be an accurate assessment, if we are going to get picky, yes. Of course, by the same picky token, I guess that Christians in general are polytheists…certainly in comparison to the true monotheists among us, like Judaism and Islam. :ehh:

no we are monotheistic. the father, son and holy ghost are ONE God, co-equal, co-eternal and most importantly consubstantial

 

[majick275]

the real question here is, what does “one” mean? Is it one in being/substance (Catholic, Orthodox, the rest of traditional Trinitarian Christianity), or one in purpose (LDS).

oh i think we can further than that here. in mormon doctrine their is an infinite progression and thus regression of Gods. elohim has a literal father who is God…who has a father who is HIS God…and so on and so on. this will, according to LDs doctrine go on forever in the future where exalted mormons will become Gods and have spirit children who will need physical bodies and thus will need an “earth” and a tempter and a savior…over and over again.

who was Elohim’s savior that atoned for his sins? who will be the savior that atones for teh next generation of spirit children?

 

[Jerusha]

who will be the savior that atones for teh next generation of spirit children?

Just a brief and subtle comment.

Holocaust–**burnt offering: **a religious sacrifice that is totally consumed by fire

 

[DLClark]

Remember this. Every time the Mormons use they always use it out of context. So don’t be fooled when they start quoting the Bible because they are handeling it incorrectly and the Bible verse they use does not state, in context, what they are saying.

 

[Erich]

Yes, that verse says “My Father and I are one.” But the verse immediately preceding that one says “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

He obviously separated Himself from His Father there; after all, He did not say “I gave them to myself,” did He? Therefore if He and His Father are One, it’s obviously not in the way you are presenting.

And so I ask again,

John 10:28-30

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one."

 

[ParkerD]

DLCLARK,

Good point! The Mormon “Heavenly Father” may have attained “god-like” attributes, but at some point he did not exist. He came into existence during his own spirit-birth (and subsequently a human-birth). During this time he could “make mistakes” and was dependent on others, presumably “his heavenly father”.

-kc

Kikkichan,
Just a short note. If you read the King Follett Sermon, you find that Joseph Smith taught that all intelligences have always existed, eternally backward in time.

Joseph Smith never said any of the things you said in your statement. Wherever you got your information, it was only someone’s conjecture. I personally think that what Joseph Smith did teach makes that statement wrong. He said the Savior did on this earth “exactly what His Father” had done. Just as the Savior lived on an earth, the Father lived on an earth, but the context expresses that both lived Perfect lives.

 

[Tmaque]

Kikkichan,
Just a short note. If you read the King Follett Sermon, you find that Joseph Smith taught that all intelligences have always existed, eternally backward in time.

Joseph Smith never said any of the things you said in your statement. Wherever you got your information, it was only someone’s conjecture. I personally think that what Joseph Smith did teach makes that statement wrong. He said the Savior did on this earth “exactly what His Father” had done. Just as the Savior lived on an earth, the Father lived on an earth, but the context expresses that both lived Perfect lives.

Well that’s a problem because before the big bang, the universe and therefore time, did not exist. But, JS didn’t know that. He obviously believed the common scientific misconception at the time of a static universe.

Incidentally, once the big bang theory was proven it was a big blow to the atheistic scientific community because it put a definitive time frame on the expansion/development of the universe and evolution. The big bang makes it much more likely that the universe was created by an intelligence.

 

[Bill_Pick]

The mormons do not think of the tritinty as Christian do. or any way, that MOST Christians do.

 

[kikkichan]

Kikkichan,
Just a short note. If you read the King Follett Sermon, you find that Joseph Smith taught that all intelligences have always existed, eternally backward in time.

Joseph Smith never said any of the things you said in your statement. Wherever you got your information, it was only someone’s conjecture. I personally think that what Joseph Smith did teach makes that statement wrong. He said the Savior did on this earth “exactly what His Father” had done. Just as the Savior lived on an earth, the Father lived on an earth, but the context expresses that both lived Perfect lives.

Parkerd,

Thanks for the response. This is my source: Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith - Section Six 1843-44, p.345

“In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.”

Section Six 1843-44, p.345

“These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”

Now I would wager that we are fallible" and therefore if god was once like us, then if follows that god was, at one time, fallible.

Meanwhile, I didn’t get where JS ‘showed this from the Bible’. I suspect that you may help there!

thanks
-kc
+±+

 

[PaulDupre]

I personally think that what Joseph Smith did teach makes that statement wrong. He said the Savior did on this earth “exactly what His Father” had done. Just as the Savior lived on an earth, the Father lived on an earth, but the context expresses that both lived Perfect lives.

Yes, when I was LDS (in the 70’s and 80’s) I was taught that Elohim (Heavenly Father) was the Christ of another world. That would necessarily mean that Elohim led a sinless life as Jesus did.

Imagine then my surprise when just a few years ago I read in the Gospel Principles manual:

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.

• Gospel Principles, Chapter 47

This last part of the quote makes it sound like Elohim was a sinner who “succeeded” in gaining salvation and exaltation. With Jesus, at least from the Christian POV, there was never a possibility that Jesus could not have succeeded because Jesus is fully God as well as fully man. Jesus was God before, during and after his earthly life. From the Mormon POV, Elohim was not God (or a god) until after he “succeeded” in his earth life. After that, according to Joseph Smith, Elohim became God.

 

[DLClark]

The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father and christ are the very same God. John 1:1-3; Heb. 1;8; Jn 10:27-34.John 20:30-31.

 

[dianaiad]

And so I ask again,

Erich:

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one."
Jesus has just taken one of the most monotheistic statements from Deuteronomy and applied it to himself, including himself with the Father in its affirmation. Would the Jewish leaders of the day have wanted to kill Jesus if all He were claiming was that He and the Father are of one purpose?

The Jewish leaders of the day misunderstood Who he was, and what He was claiming (In no way would they have turned him over to the Romans to be killed if they thought for one minute that He actually WAS the Messiah!)

…and you are basing your argument for your understanding of the Trinity upon their MISunderstanding of Who He is?

Isn’t that a little like claiming that if the church burned a witch at the stake, then she must obviously then have BEEN a witch?

I will admit that this is an argument that I don’t often see.

 

[kikkichan]

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one."
Jesus has just taken one of the most monotheistic statements from Deuteronomy and applied it to himself, including himself with the Father in its affirmation. Would the Jewish leaders of the day have wanted to kill Jesus if all He were claiming was that He and the Father are of one purpose?

The Jewish leaders of the day misunderstood Who he was, and what He was claiming (In no way would they have turned him over to the Romans to be killed if they thought for one minute that He actually WAS the Messiah!)

…and you are basing your argument for your understanding of the Trinity upon their MISunderstanding of Who He is?

Isn’t that a little like claiming that if the church burned a witch at the stake, then she must obviously then have BEEN a witch?

I will admit that this is an argument that I don’t often see.

dianaiad,
I think the leaders of the day did understand Jesus’ claim. What they misunderstood was that it could be true.. I think Erich’s point is a good one. The angst Jesus caused was based on a claim far more substantial than one of being on the same page as the Father.
-kc

 

[Scriptorian]

oh i think we can further than that here. in mormon doctrine their is an infinite progression and thus regression of Gods. elohim has a literal father who is God…who has a father who is HIS God…and so on and so on. this will, according to LDs doctrine go on forever in the future where exalted mormons will become Gods and have spirit children who will need physical bodies and thus will need an “earth” and a tempter and a savior…over and over again.

who was Elohim’s savior that atoned for his sins? who will be the savior that atones for teh next generation of spirit children?

Sometimes when you are trying to be cynical you stumble onto something profound. Will there be a savior over and over again? No.

Jesus atoned for the sins of all. His was an infinite and eternal sacrifice in both time and space. For all creations in all places in all ages in all eternity. Infinite.

8 And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice. (Alma 34:8-10)

 

[Scriptorian]

Remember this. Every time the Mormons use they always use it out of context. So don’t be fooled when they start quoting the Bible because they are handeling it incorrectly and the Bible verse they use does not state, in context, what they are saying.

Wow! I’m insulted. What a way to silence those who disagree with you! Every time… always… don’t be fooled… You sound somewhat shallow, my friend. Shallow arguments are those that must rely on generalities and stereotypes.

Have you read the Bible, Mr. Clark? I have. Several times. I know the context better than any Protestant I have ever heard speak of it. Perhaps if we all discussed the scriptures more, we would all be more enlightened.

 

[Scriptorian]

And so I ask again, Would the Jewish leaders of the day have wanted to kill Jesus if all He were claiming was that He and the Father are of one purpose?

No, he was claiming to be the Son of God, i.e., the Messiah. His followers were claiming he was the King of the Jews. He basically confessed as much to Pilate:

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. (John 18:37)