OK, I Am Confused. Do Mormons Believe In The Trinity?

[LDSGuy]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not want to be considered Trinitarian. Individual members (aka zerinus for example) may say we believe in the Trinity, but they do not mean that we believe in the traditional Christian Trinity (three persons united in substance/being). We believe that God’s oneness is that of purpose and will, not of substance. Each member of the Godhead is a separate and distinct being.

 

[Bill_Pick]

She did not call you anti-Catholic. She called Scriptorian anti-Catholic. But it did give you a chance to jump in with your protestant America elementary school version of Christian History. Which would make one wonder about your motives, for doing it.

Mormons do not believe in the trinity which is why they are not Christian

From the time I can remember I was told if you do not believe in the trinity you are not a Christian

 

[Stephen168]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not want to be considered Trinitarian. Individual members (aka zerinus for example) may say we believe in the Trinity, but they do not mean that we believe in the traditional Christian Trinity (three persons united in substance/being). We believe that God’s oneness is that of purpose and will, not of substance. Each member of the Godhead is a separate and distinct being.

I agree, Christians believe in the Trinity and Mormons do not. 35 years ago, the Mormons I knew would also agree. BUT it seems by the Mormons that come to this forum, Mormons want others to believe Mormons believe in the trinity. This is a change. Either there has been a change in the Mormon Church or this is a little game played by Mormons that come to this forum.

 

[LDSGuy]

I agree, Christians believe in the Trinity and Mormons do not. 35 years ago, the Mormons I knew would also agree. BUT it seems by the Mormons that come to this forum, Mormons want others to believe Mormons believe in the trinity. This is a change. Either there has been a change in the Mormon Church or this is a little game played by Mormons that come to this forum.

When you say that Mormons want others to believe that Mormons believe in the trinity, are you saying that Mormons on this forum say that we believe in the same Trinity as traditional Christianity?

The Church has not changed its stance on the nature of God. As said above, we believe that God is three distinct beings united in purpose, and not substance. As said above, zerinus does say that we believe in “the Trinity”, or “the Trinity of the Bible”, but he does clarify that this is not the Trinity of traditional Christianity. I personally do not use the word Trinity to describe our beliefs, as it causes too much confusion. While we do believe in one God, that oneness is not that of traditional Christianity.

 

[Stephen168]

When you say that Mormons want others to believe that Mormons believe in the trinity, are you saying that Mormons on this forum say that we believe in the same Trinity as traditional Christianity?

No, they do not claim to believe in the trinity of Christianity. BUT they claim to believe in A trinity defined by the Mormon Church. My point is: 35 years ago, Mormons did not claim to believe in anything called a’ trinity.’ I agree with you, I don’t think the Mormon understand of God has changed, just a desired to believe in A trinity.

 

[Scriptorian]

This is also a problem with anti-Catholicism, you fail to see a difference between the actions of government and the actions of a religious institution.

What about when they were one and the same? When the Pope became the equivalent of a prophet, king, judge, jury, and supreme commander of armies–that is when the darkest periods of Catholic history occurred. I know of one account where a Pope Steven VI did not like the actions of one of his predecessors so according to wiki:

The corpse was disinterred, clad in papal vestments, and seated on a throne to face all the charges from John VIII. The verdict was that the deceased had been unworthy of the pontificate. The Damnatio memoriae, an old judicial practice from the Ancient Rome was applied to Formosus and all his measures and acts were annulled, and the orders conferred by him were declared invalid. The papal vestments were torn from his body, the three fingers from his right hand that he had used in consecrations were cut off and the corpse was thrown into the Tiber (and later retrieved by a monk).

He was later cleared of all charges and his annulled acts were re-instituted (with great confusion on the part of the church). This is only one of many stories that stick out in my mind. Try studying Pope John VII sometime.

 

[Scriptorian]

Scriptorian
Seriously. …well I guess you can claim whatever you want (Jsmith certainly did).

Personally I believe in Peter Pan and I keep his shadow in my drawer. Of course–you can’t really verify that, BUT, if you pray about it, sincerely and with an open heart, soon you will be able to testify to this truth!

Rest assured if there was any substantial physical evidence from the BOM, Monson would be trottin’ in out as we speak, the Smithsonian Institute would have to amend their statement etc etc

And what do you say to the Jehovah Witnesses who have a “testimony” regarding their beliefs? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Perhaps a “testimony”, in and of itself, is not a subjective reason enough to believe --well–anything! People have “testimonies” about Amway! But see, that’s ALL you have. All you have are “feelings” because you’ve nothing else to go on. You belong to the number one feel-good-social club in the world! It is buffered w many things that ARE good, ie-good will and family oriented activities etc, but that doesn’t mean it’s TRUE. The core is wrong. Joseph lied.

Science, reason and logic support (don’t prove) the Bible and Christianity. They do not support the BOM and won’t because it’s fiction. Period.

Have you actually even looked into the science of the Book of Mormon or are you just taking the “testimony” of anti-Mormon rumors as gospel. Yes, there is substantial and credible science “proving” the Book of Mormon has historical accuracy.

But the point is this, when it comes to proving the Book of Mormon to be true by science or archeology, it is impossible. There is too much. You can prove 200 examples of accurate history and still have hundreds more to prove. The book is 531 pages!

Many have tried to prove the book false, which should be far easier. You only have to find one thing to be false and the whole book is disproved, right? But even though the task is easier it has yet to be done with any conclusiveness. The best anyone has been able to do is say, “The Book of Mormon mentions such and such, but we haven’t found such and such where we think it would be. The book must be false.” Lack of evidence is not proof, my friend.

 

[cothrige]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not want to be considered Trinitarian. Individual members (aka zerinus for example) may say we believe in the Trinity, but they do not mean that we believe in the traditional Christian Trinity (three persons united in substance/being). We believe that God’s oneness is that of purpose and will, not of substance. Each member of the Godhead is a separate and distinct being.

I hope I don’t cause anyone here offense, but I am just unable to understand how this usage can be supported. Here you speak of God in the singular saying We believe that God’s oneness is that of purpose and will, not of substance. But, how can purpose and will actually make what is plural into the singular? My wife and I are united in purpose and will regarding our children, and yet we are not a parent, but parents. No matter how agreed we could be we would always be separate and plural. If there are two or more beings, regardless of how agreed they are, then there must be Gods.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Many have tried to prove the book false, which should be far easier. You only have to find one thing to be false and the whole book is disproved, right? But even though the task is easier it has yet to be done with any conclusiveness. The best anyone has been able to do is say, “The Book of Mormon mentions such and such, but we haven’t found such and such where we think it would be. The book must be false.” Lack of evidence is not proof, my friend.

The Holy Spirit witnessed to me that it is false.

 

[Scriptorian]

I hope I don’t cause anyone here offense, but I am just unable to understand how this usage can be supported. Here you speak of God in the singular saying We believe that God’s oneness is that of purpose and will, not of substance. But, how can purpose and will actually make what is plural into the singular? My wife and I are united in purpose and will regarding our children, and yet we are not a parent, but parents. No matter how agreed we could be we would always be separate and plural. If there are two or more beings, regardless of how agreed they are, then there must be Gods.

Excellent point!

Now, take that to the next level. What if you and your wife were perfect beings who would do exactly the right thing every time? And then what if you had a perfect link between your minds and spirits (called the Holy Ghost) who allowed you to communicate seamlessly and perfectly at the “speed of thought”? You would be one in ways that we mere mortals can’t even imagine. You would not be one individual, but if your wife were speaking it may as well have been you because you were so unified. I would call that “the perfect couple.”

The relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Testator or Messenger is what we call “the Godhead.” We do not use the word “Trinity” because we believe it is a false tradition that does not agree with the scriptures nor reality.

 

[Scriptorian]

The Holy Spirit witnessed to me that it is false.

Wow. That’s interesting. Will you describe the experience as it has never happened before…?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wow. That’s interesting. Will you describe the experience as it has never happened before…?

I read. I prayed. I thought, this is BS. It was a really, really good feeling that went along with that thought.

Never happened before? How many BoMs are given out by how many missionaries and how many people actually get a “testimony”?

 

[Scriptorian]

I read. I prayed. I thought, this is BS. It was a really, really good feeling that went along with that thought.

Never happened before? How many BoMs are given out by how many missionaries and how many people actually get a “testimony”?

That’s not what you said, Rebecca. You said that you received a testimony the book wasn’t true. That has never happened before to my knowledge. Will you describe the experience or were you just being facetious?

I know why you said it. But tongue in cheek lying, is still lying.

 

[cothrige]

Now, take that to the next level. What if you and your wife were perfect beings who would do exactly the right thing every time?

What makes you think we don’t?

And then what if you had a perfect link between your minds and spirits (called the Holy Ghost) who allowed you to communicate seamlessly and perfectly at the “speed of thought”? You would be one in ways that we mere mortals can’t even imagine. You would not be one individual, but if your wife were speaking it may as well have been you because you were so unified. I would call that “the perfect couple.”

I would like to consider your approach carefully. What you are describing is a situation in which two beings have perfect and instant communication between them. Okay. I can buy that. The question though is does that mean that there are no longer two, but one? I don’t think so. If point A is connected to point B by perfect communication conduit C you don’t get point ABC. There are still three points, not one. As long as no unity in being is held I just cannot see how one gets from plural to singular. Not in the sense conveyed by a change from the form Gods to the form God.

I can concede that one can speak of unity. There can be many levels of unity here. Unity of mind, purpose, intent, will, or so on. However, unity does not negate plurality, unless the unity is one of being. If you have two beings, you cannot then have one being simply because they have perfect communication. Neither can, as you suggest, two individuals become one individual. There can be unity. That I agree. But to say God, rather than Gods, just requires more.

The relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Testator or Messenger is what we call “the Godhead.” We do not use the word “Trinity” because we believe it is a false tradition that does not agree with the scriptures nor reality.

Yes, I can accept your usage of the word Godhead. That word is open to interpretation of what level of unity is being spoken about. And I can understand your criticism of the Trinity and disinterest in using it. Actually, it seems to me to be a very honest position. Maybe that is why I am surprised that LDS so often say God when speaking of the entire LDS Godhead, which is to insist on singularity of being even though singularity of being is being dismissed as being abiblical.

 

[sweetnay]

That’s not what you said, Rebecca. You said that you received a testimony the book wasn’t true. That has never happened before to my knowledge. Will you describe the experience or were you just being facetious?

I know why you said it. But tongue in cheek lying, is still lying.

Um, how else would you take “BS”–?

Oh and be sure to let us all know when a credible,non-LDS funded source has some physical evidence accepted by the scientific community supporting ANYTHING in the BOM. Especially now that the LDScorp bought the Hill Cumorah–I don’t think any credible excavating of any kind will be going on there. Oh–and how many ppl died in that last battle? Sooo, let’s see, there should be–oh I don’t know–a remnant of SOME sort of weapon–SOMEthing. A shield maybe? And I never said science can prove Christianity, it merely SUPPorts it–unlike the BOM.

 

[Jerusha]

I also have read the BOM, studied it, even to the point of translating it into plain Englaish. I have prayed over it. The Holy Spirit has also told me that it is not true. I could even go so far as to say that parts of it come from a very unholy spirit.

I am sorry, but when that crashes, everything else crashes. And your endless speculations about the nature, and the Mystery of the Trinity are pointless.

 

[Scriptorian]

What makes you think we don’t?

I would like to consider your approach carefully. What you are describing is a situation in which two beings have perfect and instant communication between them. Okay. I can buy that. The question though is does that mean that there are no longer two, but one? I don’t think so. If point A is connected to point B by perfect communication conduit C you don’t get point ABC. There are still three points, not one. As long as no unity in being is held I just cannot see how one gets from plural to singular. Not in the sense conveyed by a change from the form Gods to the form God.

I can concede that one can speak of unity. There can be many levels of unity here. Unity of mind, purpose, intent, will, or so on. However, unity does not negate plurality, unless the unity is one of being. If you have two beings, you cannot then have one being simply because they have perfect communication. Neither can, as you suggest, two individuals become one individual. There can be unity. That I agree. But to say God, rather than Gods, just requires more.

Sorry, I guess I should have considered that I may be talking to a perfect individual.

Maybe this scripture would help, although you may have seen it before:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

“That they may be one, even as we are one.” Profound.

I find it far less difficult to imagine perfect unity than to come up with a reason Jesus would be praying so fervently to himself.

 

[Scriptorian]

I also have read the BOM, studied it, even to the point of translating it into plain Englaish. I have prayed over it. The Holy Spirit has also told me that it is not true. I could even go so far as to say that parts of it come from a very unholy spirit.

I am sorry, but when that crashes, everything else crashes. And your endless speculations about the nature, and the Mystery of the Trinity are pointless.

So, how do you explain my experience that was categorically and unequivocally the opposite? I know it to be true and have felt the witness of the Holy Ghost countless times that it is true. I have read the Book of Mormon nearly forty times, and I have yet to find a single passage that does not bring me closer to Jesus Christ.

I have found no need to correct the language of the book at all. I tried to do it once also, and found myself with my mind darkened concerning the whole process. It just didn’t work. I would guess God doesn’t like us to over-simplify the scriptures.

However, when I learn and teach the language as written, I find it beautiful and inspiring.

 

[Jerusha]

LOL. That is part of preconceived notions, and being trained to believe that it is true. When you tried to translate it into plain English, perhaps you were sad, because the translation was proving to you that it is false. Funny thing, the Bible in plain Englaish is still beautiful.

 

[Irish_Kathy]

If I and my wife are united in purpose, intent, will and love regarding our children, and I would say that we are btw, then would we be one parent? It seems a bit of a stretch to claim that three separate entities are one God merely because they share the same intent and purpose.

Hi Cothrige – For us, the Trinity is what’s refered to as a Mystery. We may not ever be able to fully understand it or unpack it in this lifetime. But it’s still the truth. Jesus proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit is the love shared between them.

In searching for some material that would be good resoures, I happened upon some terrific interviews, etc with Dr. Scott Hahn. One of his best books, and according to Dr. Hahn his most important, is FIRST COMES LOVE. He is one of the most recent, best people I know of who can help anyone better understand the Trinity as Catholic’s (and most other Christians for that matter) understand the Father, Son and Holy Spirt.

excerptsofinri.com/scotthahn-ewtn.html#First_Comes_Love