OK, I Am Confused. Do Mormons Believe In The Trinity?

[RebeccaJ]

            *If you think that understanding *God has defined** what is right and what is wrong is judging, then I suggest you become an atheist. IN YOUR MIND AND LOGIC, I ALREADY AM.

You already are what?

How is NOT killing an unborn being made to feel guilty for a crime? (Surely you have had enough psychology to understand that a victim in this kind of case will have many thoughts about why they have been the victim of such a crime. Many have guilt feelings, though unjustified. “If only I hadn’t been in that place at that time. If only I were more righteous, God would have protected me.”) You are saying they absolutely must have the baby that was conceived by the criminal act. If they don’t make that choice, then you are saying they are guilty of a crime against God. (Whojumajigger called it a term I think is deplorable to have used in this kind of case.)

You are saying that God makes allowances for grave sin, based on circumstance. What other circumstances do you think God is going to look the other way?

God does not sanction any crime. He does not sanction the conception of children conceived outside of marriage. YES, HE DOES. HE ALLOWS FOR REPENTANCE BY THE PARENTS IN THAT CASE.

A woman who is pregnant because of rape or incest has not sinned. What is there to repent of?

Not by my standards, no–but I don’t force my standards onto other people.

I think it is quite apparent that you want to force your “standard” of killing the unborn who aren’t conceived in a way to our liking. Or at least, you want the world to believe that God has given a righteous CHOICE in this matter.

 

[ParkerD]

You already are what?

You are saying that God makes allowances for grave sin, based on circumstance. What other circumstances do you think God is going to look the other way?

A woman who is pregnant because of rape or incest has not sinned*. What is there to repent of? WHAT DO YOU KNOW–YOU GOT A QUESTION RIGHT!

Rebecca,
You have said I am not a Christian. You have said the God I believe in is not the God you believe in. Therefore, I have made the assumption that in your mind, I believe in something other than God when I say that I believe in God. (Remember, all I said was “in your mind”.)

We have talked about two circumstances, period. Rape and incest, only, period, no other situations, period.

You are the one who compared pregnancy out of wedlock with rape. Not me.

I said those guilty of pregnancy out of wedlock can repent, and the child is sanctioned by God.

I have no idea what you meant by your final comment. I have no idea how to respond, since I don’t know what you meant.

 

[zerinus]

and then Satan gives you the OK to kill

Ever wondered why I didn’t bother to get involved with the “abortion diversion” in this thread? You guessed it. I have already debated this subject with Catholics on this board so many times that I would be bored out of my socks to do it again. Check out these threads if you are interested:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=193432
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=199476
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=196184
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217574
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=222583

Were you impressed?

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
You have said I am not a Christian. You have said the God I believe in is not the God you believe in. Therefore, I have made the assumption that in your mind, I believe in something other than God when I say that I believe in God. (Remember, all I said was “in your mind”.)

Yes Parker, and “In your mind”, I know that you know that God defines what is right and wrong. You made a very atheistic statement when you said that saying abortion is a sin, is equal to judging. I hold no such belief.

We’re talking God’s law here. What actions are right and what actions are wrong. I in no way believe that anyone who chooses the wrong action deserves my personal judgment. I know who I am.

I also believe that any who seek forgiveness with a contrite heart, can receive it. This of course includes anyone who has chosen abortion. Even includes a rapist.

We have talked about two circumstances, period. Rape and incest, only, period, no other situations, period.

You are the one who compared pregnancy out of wedlock with rape. Not me.

I made the comparison because of what you are saying. You said, God does not sanction rape. I said, God does not sanction adultery or fornication either. WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? It seems VERY arbitrary to me.

I said those guilty of pregnancy out of wedlock can repent, and the child is sanctioned by God.

OK

I have no idea what you meant by your final comment. I have no idea how to respond, since I don’t know what you meant.

As I see it, mormons think God is pro-choice, in the case of incest and rape. In my view, if a choice is coming from God, it has to be a righteous choice.

Of course, I don’t see that God has given anyone any such choice, at all. To believe He has, I think is making God in your own image. I think you do this because the circumstances are difficult, and you want God to not allow such a thing.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes Parker, and “In your mind”, I know that you know that God defines what is right and wrong. You made a very atheistic statement when you said that saying abortion is a sin, is equal to judging. I hold no such belief.

We’re talking God’s law here. What actions are right and what actions are wrong. I in no way believe that anyone who chooses the wrong action deserves my personal judgment. I know who I am.

I also believe that any who seek forgiveness with a contrite heart, can receive it. This of course includes anyone who has chosen abortion. Even includes a rapist.

I made the comparison because of what you are saying. You said, God does not sanction rape. I said, God does not sanction adultery or fornication either. WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? It seems VERY arbitrary to me.

OK

As I see it, mormons think God is pro-choice, in the case of incest and rape. In my view, if a choice is coming from God, it has to be a righteous choice.

Of course, I don’t see that God has given anyone any such choice, at all. To believe He has, I think is making God in your own image. I think you do this because the circumstances are difficult, and you want God to not allow such a thing.

Rebecca,
Perhap it would help further your position if you were to point out the specific scripture where God said specifically what to do in the case of rape or incest, as to the unborn child in question.

What I honestly, sincerely would like to see, is how a Catholic clinical psychologist counsels a victim of rape, and how they answer the honest confusion of the person in that specific situation. Do you know anyone who has those credentials who could respond in this forum? Or, perhaps you have literature that already deals specifically with that kind of a case, and could provide the clinical psychologist’s viewpoint and how they helped the victim work through the trauma of their situation. I am honestly just curious–no pointing fingers, I just think it would be of interest and would enlighten my own limited knowledge in this area as to the Catholic position.

 

[Stephen168]

Rebecca,
Perhap it would help further your position if you were to point out the specific scripture where God said specifically what to do in the case of rape or incest, as to the unborn child in question.

What I honestly, sincerely would like to see, is how a Catholic clinical psychologist counsels a victim of rape, and how they answer the honest confusion of the person in that specific situation. Do you know anyone who has those credentials who could respond in this forum? Or, perhaps you have literature that already deals specifically with that kind of a case, and could provide the clinical psychologist’s viewpoint and how they helped the victim work through the trauma of their situation. I am honestly just curious–no pointing fingers, I just think it would be of interest and would enlighten my own limited knowledge in this area as to the Catholic position.

Are you suggesting the Bible tells us that murder is a good thing? Or are you suggesting there are exceptions for murder in the Bible?
Didiche 2:2:

Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born, thou shalt not covet thy neighbours goods.

 

[ParkerD]

Stephen,
If you are saying that you are a clinical psychologist, then I poor pity the Catholic church.

 

[Stephen168]

Perhap it would help further your position if you were to point out the specific scripture where God said specifically what to do in the case of rape or incest, as to the unborn child in question.
Stephen168;5136612:

Are you suggesting the Bible tells us that murder is a good thing? Or are you suggesting there are exceptions for murder in the Bible?

If you are saying that you are a clinical psychologist, then I poor pity the Catholic church.

Interesting

 

[zerinus]

Are you suggesting the Bible tells us that murder is a good thing? Or are you suggesting there are exceptions for murder in the Bible?

No. It is the Catholic Church that teaches that murdering poor innocent pregnant mothers is okay.

Did you miss all the links I gave you in my previous post? If they were too many you can try the first one here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=193432

As you can see, I can play this game a lot better than you can.

zerinus

 

[CJ_Nick]

As you can see, I can play this game a lot better than you can.

zerinus

Hi Z,

Game???

Not really when you consider the practice of abortion being discussed.

Peace,
CJ

 

[Stephen168]

It is the Catholic Church that teaches that murdering poor innocent pregnant mothers is okay.

What chapter of the Catechism teaches poor and innocent are exceptions to murder? We know the Mormon Church teaches being conceived by rape or incest are exceptions to murder.

 

[zerinus]

What chapter of the Catechism teaches poor and innocent are exceptions to murder? We know the Mormon Church teaches being conceived by rape or incest are exceptions to murder.

Read the thread I gave you. You wouldn’t need to ask if you did.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
Perhap it would help further your position if you were to point out the specific scripture where God said specifically what to do in the case of rape or incest, as to the unborn child in question.

Parker, would you like all the scriptures about marriage, family, children as God’s blessing followed by the scriptures that explain why murder is a sin? I had this assumption going that you knew them already.

What I honestly, sincerely would like to see, is how a Catholic clinical psychologist counsels a victim of rape, and how they answer the honest confusion of the person in that specific situation. Do you know anyone who has those credentials who could respond in this forum?

I don’t. You can search the “social justice” forum. There are people there who relate first-hand experiences. There are also people who are counselors who post in there, but I don’t know that they ever relate specific patient stories.

 

[sweetnay]

and then Satan gives you the OK to kill

Agreed. Any “holy ghost” who gives you permission to kill your innocent, unborn child is anything but “holy”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What I honestly, sincerely would like to see, is how a Catholic clinical psychologist counsels a victim of rape, and how they answer the honest confusion of the person in that specific situation. Do you know anyone who has those credentials who could respond in this forum? Or, perhaps you have literature that already deals specifically with that kind of a case, and could provide the clinical psychologist’s viewpoint and how they helped the victim work through the trauma of their situation. I am honestly just curious–no pointing fingers, I just think it would be of interest and would enlighten my own limited knowledge in this area as to the Catholic position.

I googled.

priestsforlife.org/articles/index.htm

priestsforlife.org/testimony/ingentlehands.htm
priestsforlife.org/testimony/jennispeltz.htm
priestsforlife.org/articles/rapeandabortion.html

 

[Stephen168]

Read the thread I gave you. You wouldn’t need to ask if you did.

zerinus

Which means you know very well the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that. If we did, it would be in the Catechism. It is very sad that you would have to lie just to try and win an argument. Or a game as you put it. Your Church has no consistent rational moral teaching.

 

[dianaiad]

And with today’s medical advances we hear of case more often that those premature births of to 5 months are living. and healthy so even that case is became more and more unacceptable.

“unacceptable” is the wrong word.

“rare” is the right one, thank heaven. The more we learn, the less often this choice has to be made and I’m all for that!

There may come a time when a woman who was raped and simply cannot handle the pregnancy can let another woman bear and have the child…a very early adoption. I’m not certain that we can’t almost do that now!

As well, with the sort of medical care available, there are very few situations in which the pregnancy must end in order to save the life of the mother. Some cancers, perhaps…I can’t think of too many. Pre-eclampsia is a nasty one, though usually a mother and child in that situation are far enough along that the child has a good chance of surviving.

The vast majority of abortions are for the sake of convenience; a ‘back up’ birth control method…and I see them as no different from the old practices of leaving a newborn on a hilltop to die of exposure.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

“unacceptable” is the wrong word.

“rare” is the right one, thank heaven. The more we learn, the less often this choice has to be made and I’m all for that!

There may come a time when a woman who was raped and simply cannot handle the pregnancy can let another woman bear and have the child…a very early adoption. I’m not certain that we can’t almost do that now!

As well, with the sort of medical care available, there are very few situations in which the pregnancy must end in order to save the life of the mother. Some cancers, perhaps…I can’t think of too many. Pre-eclampsia is a nasty one, though usually a mother and child in that situation are far enough along that the child has a good chance of surviving.

The vast majority of abortions are for the sake of convenience; a ‘back up’ birth control method…and I see them as no different from the old practices of leaving a newborn on a hilltop to die of exposure.

I stand by what I said. The premeditated murder of an innocent unborn Child is unacceptable. I do not care how you dress it up what you stack around it.

As to In the case of the mothers life or the babies I pray that non ever have to make this choice. Because I do not see one as more valuable than the other.

 

[Irish_Kathy]

post 749

A conversation about mormons and their witness of the holy ghost. mormonpro brought up the witness they get from their holy ghost that it is ok to have an abortion.

Thanks Rebecca

 

[dianaiad]

Which means you know very well the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that. If we did, it would be in the Catechism. It is very sad that you would have to lie just to try and win an argument. Or a game as you put it. Your Church has no consistent rational moral teaching.

I just got back from the Catholic Encyclopedia, where I struggled through the whole thing. It seems that it is neither moral nor acceptable to perform an abortion for any reason whatsoever, not to save the life of the mother or for any other reason; killing the child to save the mother is absolutely forbidden.

However.

If something must be done to save the mother’s life, and that ‘something’ just happens to result in the death of the fetus, well then, that’s all right.

That’s how y’all get around the problem of an ectopic pregnancy. You can’t abort the fetus. But you CAN remove the obstacle from the fallopian tube…or remove the fallopian tube that is causing the pain and the inevitable hemorrhage that will kill her. If that obstacle just happens to be a fetus—oh, well.

Or, if a mother has cancer and requires treatment…chemo or radiation…you can’t abort the baby. However, you CAN give her the chemo and radiation even though you know that both things will kill the child. Oh, well.

In fact, the Catholic church position on this is a masterpiece of obfuscation and sophistry.

I prefer a little honesty in things. If we acknowledge that the medical procedure that is about to save the woman’s life is absolutely about ending the life of the unborn child, and do that from the get go, we are more likely to look for alternatives, don’t you think? Let’s not kid ourselves; to say that surgically removing an ectopic pregnancy is NOT ending the life of the child–and rather directly at that—is a lie. Coating it in religious rhetoric doesn’t make it less so.

We should face that. Acknowledge that. Allow for the grief–and embrace the added motive to find another way of dealing with the medical emergency. To do otherwise, it seems to me, is hypocrisy.