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O
Old_Scholar
Guest
I’m sure the karate lesson is not in a religious setting.
What you actually said was: “I bow all the time in reverence for Christ’s Sacrifice. I bow to Mary from time to time because I am reminded of her great love for Christ and His Church.”
I will accept your answer, however I do not feel it would be necessary to bow to her in order to show respect. That shows worship.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Isn’t it true that the Roman Catholic Church considers all other churches apostate?
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
I believe that is true of both of us. I know some Catholics that do not even own a Bible. I also know some Protestants who wouldn’t know the New Testament from the old.
Unfortunately too may people simply believe what they are told. When I first started posting on Catholic sites, I had a long standing forum type debate with someone who claims to have a good knowledge of the Roman Catholic Church. My purpose was to find out exactly why he believed the way he did and I learn a lot every time I post on one of these forums. The part I don’t yet understand is why most of them believe in the history of their church as they do. It falls in the face of actual history. Then I remember that, in most cases, most Catholics have been taught what they know from kindergarten on through school. It is easier to understand them then. However when I find one educated in history in college, then I find some who are searching to find the truth, no matter where it takes them. Sometimes I find that theological and scholarly discussions in seminary don’t compare with the real world either…
Actually I post quite a bit on a Protestant forum and often create quite a stir there because I find out that many, if not most, don’t know why they believe as they do either. I do know now however, why so many believe as they do about certain doctrines. And I also have a lot of conversations with my pastor when he says something I can’t find in Scripture.
Being a ‘devil’s advocate’ works more than it fails…
Quoting Dale Jr., “this is fun…”
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/teufel/devil-smiley-033.gif
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Old_Scholar
Guest
In OS’s Defense (no, don’t worry, this isn’t the 7th sign!!!), I consider all Protestant Reformation churches to be apostate, but I don’t consider all non-Catholics to be going to hell. I **think **my view reflects that of the Catholic Church.
If I recall correctly, that is what you said that Old Scholar claimed. If I’m mistaken, then I’m sorry.
This is what I claim:
That Bible speaks frequently, and in glowing terms, of the church. Kingdom of God, Bride of Christ, New Jerusalem—these are some of the names given to the church. So what is the church?
Romans 12:5 tells us that: So we, who are many **are one body in Christ, **and individually we are members who belong to one another.(NET) Most every translation says exactly the same thing. We are all one body in Christ.
Notice it says ONE BODY. Sometimes called, “the body of Christ.”
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
What happens when one becomes a believer?
Acts 5:14 And **believers **were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)(RSV)
The Christian Church is not an organization, it is not an institution, it is not a building, it is people. Specifically, people who believe in Jesus Christ as their saviour.
The church is the body of believers who have been baptized into the church.
1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
This doesn’t leave room for different people. Believers are belivers, not Protestant or Catholic or Mormons, etc.
GA 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
EPH 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
So we are told that the church is the people—all people who believe in Christ as their Savior and Lord.
This tells us that the church is the mystical, intimate union of all people who believe in Christ. The Holy Spirit converts people one by one. But he doesn’t let them remain alone—detached.
Once I **have faith in Jesus **and I am united with Him, I am automatically untied with everybody else who is united with Him. Jesus gives us **our oneness **as we all trust in the same Jesus.
From this we learn: By bringing them to faith in Christ, He makes them members of Christ and fellow members of all believers in Christ. Thus, the church is one body, one family, one fellowship: the communion of saints. We all address God as **“Father.” **Those are family words.
Why is it we want to split up into groups and believe different things? Shouldn’t we merely believe in Christ Jesus and follow His word?
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NotWorthy
Guest
I think only God and I know who I worship. Not you, or anyone else on these Forums, mind you.
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NotWorthy
Guest
You need to ask Luther and his ilk that question. When I see what other faiths have dropped, simply because “those Catholics do it”, it makes me sad and certainly doesn’t make me feel “as one”.
But, as I think on your question, I’m reminded of your original post, the one that called the Catholic Church Apostate. That doesn’t sound like you feel like we are “one Body”.
C
CTA1967
Guest
Hehe, isn’t it kinda ironic how today’s the Assumption of Mary?I think only God and I know who I worship. Not you, or anyone else on these Forums, mind you.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
I am not thinking that of the members—just the institution of the church.
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elts1956
Guest
A “bow” of the head, or of the body can be a way from saying hello to a way of worship. The Japanese bow from the waist in saying hello. I don’t think they are worshiping the person they are addressing.
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elts1956
Guest
Well, I suppose we can use our imagination. These so called “graven images” are only concrete reminders for us to keep God and the Saints in our minds and hearts. I have never heard of a Catholic bowing to any image in worship, nor thinking those objects can answer any prayer. I think you mistake respect for worship.
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elts1956
Guest
Just because Old Scholar says it, doesn’t make it so does it? It’s not in the Bible.
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elts1956
Guest
Even though they are human, they are still a representation.
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elts1956
Guest
“A manger scene is ‘obviously’ a celebration. Having Jesus on a cross would seem as a celebration as well. Why would anyone want to do that?”
We don’t “celebrate” Christ’s death on the Cross. Death and Life are two different dichotomies. We remember the one, Christ’s death and celebrate the other, Christ’s birth.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
That type of greeting is a ‘culture’ thing and is not done in a religious setting. I don’t believe they pray to each other either…A “bow” of the head, or of the body can be a way from saying hello to a way of worship. The Japanese bow from the waist in saying hello. I don’t think they are worshiping the person they are addressing.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
How would you define ‘graven images.’?
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Old_Scholar
Guest
God wants us to worship Him. He doesn’t want us making carvings in wood or stone to worship. It’s ok if there is a cross on your bible or on your church, that is a reminder. It’s a symbol. It isn’t ok if you worship that cross. You only worship God.
The Second Commandment
“Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.”
It is clear that his commandment forbids creation of any substitutes for God. That includes worship of any kind of idols, physical or imaginary. Even more subtle forms of idolatry which persist among those who would consider any literal worship of idols ludicrous.
The spirit of the second commandment forbids worship of anything or regard of anything more than God. When you consider some object something to which you declare all your thoughts, time and energies to, then that object becomes an idol.
All of God’s commandments have a purpose. They are for our good. They are a blessing to us and a benefit to mankind. They define the relationships that produce respect and stability within any society and when we openly disobey them, what does that say about us? We should look to the commandments as our standard for behavior, not develop ways to circumvent them.
The Second Commandment
“Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.”
It is clear that his commandment forbids creation of any substitutes for God. That includes worship of any kind of idols, physical or imaginary. Even more subtle forms of idolatry which persist among those who would consider any literal worship of idols ludicrous.
The spirit of the second commandment forbids worship of anything or regard of anything more than God. When you consider some object something to which you declare all your thoughts, time and energies to, then that object becomes an idol.
All of God’s commandments have a purpose. They are for our good. They are a blessing to us and a benefit to mankind. They define the relationships that produce respect and stability within any society and when we openly disobey them, what does that say about us? We should look to the commandments as our standard for behavior, not develop ways to circumvent them.
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CTA1967
Guest
Which might possibly be why Jesus is on our crosses?
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GeorgiaPeach
Guest
OS: I have a question. From what I understand you removed a photo from your signature that had an image of Christ in it and replaced it with an image of a Bible. Why do you not apply the same standards to images of creatures/objects other than graven? If we are to follow the Second Commandment according to your interpretation we should not have any statues, photographs or paintings of nature. This would even include crosses as the commandment says “likeness of anything.” Since a cross represents/is a likeness of the cross that Christ was crucified on, this too should be a no-no.
Also, how do you reconcile images of presidents on currency? I know many religious leaders that worship the almighty dollar, although they don’t physically “bow down” before it.
Also, how do you reconcile images of presidents on currency? I know many religious leaders that worship the almighty dollar, although they don’t physically “bow down” before it.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
To be honest I had not noticed what was in the picture, other than the bible, until someone on this forum pointed it out to me. Then I had to remove it because I refuse to use such ‘graven images.’
As for the picture of Anthony holding a child, I believe, as Paul taught, that all believers are saints. Since my brothers in Christ who are Catholic revere St. Anthony, I don’t believe it would be right for me to display publicly his picture on this forum.
God, in the commandment refers to heavenly beings and satanic beings. The only thing we know is that we are made in God’s image so there is where the graven image comes into being.
As for the dollar, that is not a religious symbol and has nothing to do with God or Christ. Perhaps some of them display a slogan of 'In God We Trust" on them but if the liberals in congress have their way, even that will disappear.
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