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JimmyDFG
Guest
So if its referring to muslims …does that mean fighting back until the religion is islam?
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Wouldn’t that justify in the eyes of radical mulims on what ISIS is doing…or any other islamic terrorist group?
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worldcitizen
Guest
2:190 sets the parameters of war.
2:190 And fight for the religion of GOD against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first, for GOD loveth not the transgressors.
So if they stop attacking then withdraw but if they want to fight to the death then Muslims have the right to self defense.
2:193 but if they desist, then let there be no hostility except for the wicked.
It doesn’t mean forcing people to become Muslims because the Quran states that there is no compulsion in religion.
So it’s all about stopping oppression and persecution nothing else. The battles were ‘idolatry vs belief in one God’. But Muslims were never the first to attack and often were outnumbered.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
The Mecca Quran
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JimmyDFG
Guest
5:54
O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
5:51
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
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worldcitizen
Guest
Yes Jimmy ‘allies’ as in military allies and including political and following the same moral codes.
Association is permitted but not ‘affiliation’. So a Muslim can marry a Christian as long as he/she is not compelled to give up his/her beliefs.
In the Covenants of Muhamnad to the Christians which are authentic documents you can read just how beautifully Muhammad speaks about Christians and how they are to be treated.
I keep mentioning these Covenants which are available on Kindle iPad/Android and if people really want to delve more into how Muhammad views Christians they really, really must get this because they will see for the first time the falsity of groups like Isis and will be shocked at how much Muhammad loved the,Christians.
I have these and they are beautiful. I wish people here would read them. They would then see the picture a lot more clearly.
The Bahai Writings confirm their authenticity
“In short, there are seven lengthy edicts on these subjects, copies of some of which are to this day extant in Jerusalem. This is the very truth and not merely my own assertion: The edict of the second Caliph is still in the custody of the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and the matter is beyond doubt. Nevertheless, after a time, rancour and envy arose between Muslims and Christians as transgressions were committed by both sides.”
Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.
The seventh edict would be the Constitution Of Medina.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
A Muslim woman is formally forbidden to marry a non-Muslim man regardless of his religion, while a Muslim man is allowed to get married to a non Muslim woman, mainly a Christian or a Jew, considered by the Islamic schools as “People of the Book”
Allah says: “Do not marry idolatresses (al mushrikāt) till they believe; and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress even though she would please you; and do not marry idolaters (al Mushrikīn) till they believe (hata yūminū), and certainly a believing slave is better than an idolater, even though he would please you. These invite to the Fire, and Allah invites to the Garden and to forgiveness by His grace, and makes clear His revelations to mankind so that they may remember.”Qur’an 2:221.
Through this Qur’anic order, the verse clearly forbids the marriage of the believing men and women to polytheists, called at the time “mushrikīn”.
“And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful” Quran 4:25
Islamic marriage rules between Muslim men and non-Muslim women are regulated by Islamic principles. There are restrictions to whom a Muslim man can marry. Muslim men are forbidden from marrying polytheist women. A polytheist woman would have to convert to Islam if she would want to get married to a Muslim man, according to Islamic principles.
Muslim women are forbidden from marrying non-Muslim men according to Islamic law. All major groups of Muslims have forbidden Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men. According to some[who?], this prohibition serves to preserve the Islamic faith from dilution and expand it, within societies which are patriarchal but multi-faith. It effectively ensures that over many generations, providing that the society is patrilineal, Islam would naturally gain in adherents relative to other co-existing religions, through its ability to secure the adherence of all offspring from mixed marriages. In effect, all children of any mixed-marriages involving Muslims are guaranteed to be raised as Muslim.This systemic method of expanding the Muslim community in any multi-religious society is assisted by the ability for Muslim men to marry more than one non-Muslim wife (a possibility usually not available to non-Muslim men) and therefore secure all of their offspring for the Islamic faith - provided that the society acknowledges a patrilineal religious system in which only the father’s religion is passed down. There also exists a minority view that does permit women who have converted to Islam to remain with non-Muslim spouses as an exception to the general rule. This minority view is however restricted to converted women only.
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worldcitizen
Guest
Thanks mummy for that.
Christians and Jews both have the right to life and freedom of belief in Muslimsocieties but unfortunately they don’t always practise it.
But in the Medina Charter for instance their rights are guaranteed.
What Muslims need to move towards is a true recognition of human rights. There is movements towards that direction but it still needs revision.
Christians and Jews both have the right to life and freedom of belief in Muslimsocieties but unfortunately they don’t always practise it.
But in the Medina Charter for instance their rights are guaranteed.
What Muslims need to move towards is a true recognition of human rights. There is movements towards that direction but it still needs revision.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Islam sees itself as a theocracy has enormous ramifications for how it regards itself and for the behavior of Muslims.
First, it means that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political ideology. If the government of the Muslim community simply is God’s government, then no other governments can be legitimate. They are all at war with God. As a result, Muslims have typically divided the world into two spheres, known as the Dar al-Islam—the “house of Islam” or “house of submission” to God—and the Dar al-Harb, or “house of war”—those who are at war with God.
Second, it means that Muslims have believed themselves to have a “manifest destiny.” Since God must win in the end, the Dar al-Harb must be brought under the control of Muslim government and made part of the Dar al-Islam.
Third, since the Dar al-Harb by its nature is at war with God, it is unlikely that it will submit to God without a fight. Individual groups might be convinced to lay down their arms and join the Muslim community by various forms of pressure—economic or military—that fall short of war. In history some groups have become Muslim in this way, either fearing Muslim conquest, desiring Muslim military aid against their own enemies, or.aspiring to good trade relations with the Muslim world. But many peoples would rather fight than switch. This has been particularly true of Christians, who have put up more resistance to the Muslim advance than have pagan and animistic tribes.
Because of the need to expand God’s dominion by wars of conquest, Islam’s ideology imposes on Muslims the duty to fight for God’s community. This duty is known as jihad (Arabic, “struggle, fight”). Although it is binding on all Muslims, it has been particularly incumbent on those on the edges of the Muslim world, where there was room for expansion. Only by continual jihad could the manifest destiny of Islam to bring the world into submission to God be fulfilled.
As eminent French sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, “Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion.”
A fourth and final consequence of Islam’s view of itself as a theocracy is that in theory all Muslims should not only form one religious community but should be subject to one government as well—God’s government, a kind of Muslim superstate. Yet this has not happened. Muslims have been ruled by different governments since the early days of Islam.
catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-about-islam-and-violence
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Is this before or after the jizyah tax??
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worldcitizen
Guest
The Covenants of Muhammad say they pay no tax. But after He died people didn’t follow everything He told them to. Man is renowned for not obeying God in all Faiths.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Or they didn’t think he was a prophet
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Servant19
Guest
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Just a brief interruption, but worldcitizen, did you call Jimmy your …“mummy” above???
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Just a brief interruption, but worldcitizen, did you call Jimmy your …“mummy” above???
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worldcitizen
Guest
Ha! Ha! I blame Apple for that always changing my words I type..
Just a brief interruption, but worldcitizen, did you call Jimmy your …“mummy” above???
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I’ve just been abused for the last 24 hours and called mentally insane and clinically insane and been under a barrage of insults and inuendo just for saying I believed Muhammad was a Prophet and the Quran a Holy Book.
I swear if those people had a knife I’d be dead by now. So I guess subconsciously I was calling for my mummy when Jimmy posted. Ha! Ha! Sorry Jimmy
At one time I had about almost 70 emails.
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Servant19
Guest
Hahaha, love you brother.
I was also amused that Jimmy just completely dismissed it and got on with the matter at hand. I honour your focus and concentration dear Jimmy.
Sorry you’ve been abused David, it is a testament to Catholics that we can have deep theological conversations without resorting to personal abuse
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Reuben_J
Guest
Nonsense. Christians and Jews were just considered non-Muslims and there was not much freedom for them. There were many loop-holes and that they seldom really got to have the privilege as the so-called Christians and Jews.
You must remember that they were supposed to accept Muhammad as prophet as their respective Scriptures were rescinded with the revelation of the Quran. Those that did not assent to Muhammad would find themselves at an unfavorable end of his displeasure. And you know what happened to those that did so. Much enmity arose from this and eventually relationship especially with the Jews was so bad that they were practically at each other throats literally, with the Jews at the losing end. Eventually all Christians and Jews either flee or converted to Islam, the reason simply because it was not viable to be otherwise. So you say freedom? It was more of a fairy tale.
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worldcitizen
Guest
All I’m saying is Muhammad laid down the law so Muhammad was not to blame for Muslims disobeying just like we don’t blame Christ if Christians are disobedient.
Muhammad was very clear and specific in the Covenants if you can read them online maybe.
The thing is we can’t hold the Founders of their respective Faiths responsible for the disobedience of Their followers.
Muhammad even goes so far as to say any Muslim who mistreats Christians has broken His covenant with God and is no longer a Muslim.
The same in any society. The laws are there but it’s not the laws fault if people break it.
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Servant19
Guest
Do you have any historical evidence of this action against Christians by Muhammadcplease Reuben?
Plus, also, your unanswered questions are building up brother:
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TonyBS
Guest
The Nonsense is rejection of sound argument for the purpose of making bad of one religion, it has been Gods way from the Beginning
It is the Same as with a Christian and a Jew, there is and can not be any forced conversion. God has left us to Our Free Will.
Among the many decisive pieces of evidence in this regard are the following. God says:
“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)
God says:
“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)
God says:
**“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” **(Quran 3:20)
God says:
“The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” (Quran 5:99)
The Prophet, said in his letter to the Roman governor Heraclius:
**“I invite you to accept Islam. If you accept Islam, you will find safety. If you accept Islam, God will give you a double reward. However, if you turn away, upon you will be the sin of your subjects.” **(Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)
So much evidence that the Word in the Koran does not Teach the practice of Violence against others to convert, but it does allow oneself to defend against receiving it.
To me the destruction of Monastery’s and other disasters are in direct consequence of our blindness against the religions of God, God has allowed certain events to transpire to wake us from our slumber of superiority. It is Gods world we play our little religious games in and who is the best of players!
Regards Tony
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