On Demonic Posession

[anixx]

As I said, one THEORY I’ve heard as to what actually caused the fall of Satan was his pride which made him feel that God was putting far too much love and (1) emotion into human beings which to Satan were far lower on the food chain than the angels were. (2) That is what I meant by the monkey remark. Let me add that this is just ONE of the possible stories I’ve read or heard and I don’t believe it or not believe it. I take it with a grain of salt as a possibility as no human knows for sure.

If you read the whole piece in chapter 6 vs 1 to 4 you will see that these so called giants and heroes (3) were supposedly the result of angels having intercourse with human women–a no-no per God. Re-read it.I don’t subscribe to that belief either as we simply don’t know and I assume if God wanted us to know, he’d tell us–but at least it has a biblical basis.

(4)I’d love to hear where in the church literature you got your ideas about the place where the fight between the angels and Satan occurred. I’ve never heard of it before. Anywhere!

(5) In no sense are we still in the Garden of Eden. We may be happy with our living arrangements on earth, but if you remember, God drove Adam and Eve OUT of the garden when they sinned and even put an angel at the entrance as a big “NO ENTRY” sign just in case they didn’t get the point!

1. Sorry to say love does not equal emotion. In a sense it’s the exact opposite. Love means to suffer, and God certainly didn’t put emotion into anything. Jesus Christ didn’t come jumping up and down from happiness, but he came to show his love for us, by suffering.
2. I thought you meant it literally.
3. Found what you were saying. The sons of God. According to the commentary below it states that according to traditional exegesis these may be angels, nobles or men descended from Set, good and just people, If you know something about angels, you must know that by their very nature don’t poses a body. Angel means messenger. And when they come into our plain of existence we perceive them as having a body. And if you read further you will see that it is stated the: God felt sorry for he had made man. It is not meant to be read in a literalist sense, but in a literal sense. God doesn’t go into moods, and certainly doesn’t feel sorry for something he has done. The point here is that humans did become evil, and were incurring the wrath of God on them. So I highly doubt that those sons of God are actually angels.
4. Is the Scripture Church literature? Hmm?! Read Revelation 12,7-18. It speaks of the war in heaven and the outcome of it. The temptation of the woman and the aftermath. It’s a bit hard to understand the genre, but if you are all that interested look into it.
5. I know that the Garden of Eden is a specific location, and not the entire earth.

God bless!

 

[glendab]

Hello Next.

I was looking into demonic possessions (I’ll admit, the movie “The Exorcist” got me interested), and I had some questions. First I need to clarify something on Satan and demons: Do they have free will, or can they only do what God allows them to do? I’ve heard that demons can only possess people with God’s approval. If so:

Why does God allow a person to be possessed? Doesn’t it take away the person’s free will if the demon has control of their body?

Why do exorcisms fail sometimes? One would think that with the power of holy water and a priest, a demon would immediately leave the person’s body. But yet I hear of exorcisms lasting months or years,

What usually attracts a demon to possess a person? Can “subtle possessions” occur where a person is possessed just for a short amount of time to make them commit and act they don’t want to?

Thanks.

I finally found time to sit and try to answer the questions.

The first one, about God’s permissive will I already said something. But rest assured that God Is Omnipotent and that the devil doesn’t gain the upper hand from God when someone comes under its influence. Nothing happens without God willing it. It is a mystery and great minds have troubled themselves to no end in trying to figure this mystery out, so don’t go off the deep end begging the question. Trust that God is in charge of it all.

In some regards the free will of the person is impeded in cases of true possession. In that regard, when a person is really and bodily possessed by the demon, the things they say and do aren’t of their own doing and so the devil is the one who actually incurs the guilt of sins committed during that time of possession. If however, the person cooperates in things from the devil, say by practicing spiritism or witchcraft or horoscopes or in any other of the ways in which person can practice things that are forbidden because of their demonic origins, then their free will has begun to become subjugated to the devil. It is very easy to fall under the devil’s sway in this way and many do without ever realizing it. When this does occur and demonic possession happens as a result, then it becomes more problematic then say an innocent person who never did any such thing getting possessed. It is part of the reason that one of your other questions concern: the apparent “failure” of exorcism to liberate the person afflicted on the first try or after a long period of trying. If a witch becomes possessed after practicing the black arts, because of his or her willful and deliberate cooperation with the devil as a familiar or in other ways, then the likelihood of an exorcist freeing that person is much less likely to be successful. Think of it this way" that witch is simply getting what they asked for in serving the demon by their craft. Horrible it sounds, and horrible it is, but they getting their will instead of God’s will. That is how powerful our own free will is. Like my signature says, free will is our gift from God but what we do with it is our gift back and for those who cooperate with evil, it becomes their self-imposed curse.

As for your “subtle possessions,” there are different effects of the devil in the lives of some. First there is temptation which is of the devil and effects all of us. Every person who endeavors to grow in the spiritual life and leave sin behind experiences temptation. It is very familiar. Some Saints grew in holiness by them - St. Anthony of the Egyptian desert comes to mind. These are the *ordinary *means of affliction by the devil. Then come extraordinary means of affliction by the devil. There are differing kinds, possession being the most extreme. Actual possession is rare. But there are things and persons who are effected in lesser ways. Oppression, obsession, infestation, vexation, spells and curses by witches all come from the devil and are the lesser but still extraordinary means of demonic activity. Perhaps the idea of a “subtle possession” is in actuality another person’s observation of the oppression of a particular person by the devil. That one isn’t possessed just driven by devils to extremes of behaviors that seem odd or influenced. A simple example is the almost perceptible way a person you may see is “drawn” to something most would reject, say a habit of watching bad movies and not being able to see how bad they are. That person is actually under the devil’s influence. You cannot fathom why they’d be drawn to such horrible things, but they are and nothing deters them from it. It is very likely the devil has his hooks in that person already.

Like I said before it is essential to find out the truth about the devil that the Church knows and teaches. That way you can properly address the issue. The one thing from Father Amorth’s book that stayed with me was this: when there is ignorance about things demonic in a person’s religious education, then superstition and half-truth fills the gap. This can lead a person to seek false teaching from others outside the Church which can do more harm than good. This is why there is such a growth in the Protestant’s “deliverance ministries.” The devil delights in the ignorance of men.

Well. I’ve said enough already and like I usually say, I’m no expert on much of anything but chocolate cupcakes with fresh raspberries on top for friends. Hope some of this helps you.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Anixx.

They still have free will. Let me ask you, if they don’t have free will, who coerces them to attack and tempt men? They are incapable of repentance because of their nature. Their free will has never been taken from them, just that it’s perverted and turned to evil and against God and us. Since he can do nothing to God, he occupies himself with humans.

Po is 100% correct. The angels were all created with free will but those who chose to disobey God and rebelled NEVER will be able to change the choice they made. Their disobedience is irrevocable. They aren’t free anymore. That is one of the reasons they hate men so much and work against him - because man has been redeemed by God and when he falls he CAN turn back to God in repentance and he will be forgiven. The devils will never be able to get back what they lost at their fall. This is something each of the devils knows will never be theirs and this is the cause of something I’m sure you’ve heard of before: the envy of the devil. THAT is why they attack men. We have a Redeemer they don’t and never can have it again.

Temptation although from the devil is minor compared to actual demonic assaults. [See the story of St. Pio of Pietrelcina for an example of the difference and degree of assault. He got literally beat up at night by demons and those who had watch over him while he was in seclusion from the rest of his community would be wakened in the night by the racket of Padre Pio being assaulted by demons. They would find him bruised and bleeding in the morning and they were scared out of their wits. ]

So no Annixx, you are incorrect to say that the devils have free will and operate as if they do They no longer have any choice in the matter and their whole will is evil and there is no lesser degree of evil in what they do or can accomplish. They need people to act in concert with them and that is why they can and do seduce. They had a choice only once and they will never get it back. PoGuy is correct. St. Augustine once said that if the devils had their way all mankind would be dead. That’s a whole lot of hatred and it comes from their basic understanding that their choice is permanent and will never be revoked. Man’s however is and he can turn back to God and be forgiven. That is the bottom line as to why the devil hates me and you and every other person on the planet.

Glenda

 

[Aloysium]

So, they would have a will; but being evil, it is not free to do any good. All they do is evil. They cannot create, bring about joy, not anything that invloves expressing the love that ultimately has God as its source.

 

[Thorns]

If a person should become subtly possessed to where the person doesnt even know it, would God release them from their bondage out of mercy or would He require all the bells and whistles of exorcism? If its the latter, then theres no hope for the subtly possessed person?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Demonic possession means, in the strict sense of the phrase, that we have given over our will to do Satan’s will. All of us who are going to hell are going there because we have surrendered our good will to assume the malicious will of Satan. It seems to me that this is the only kind of demonic possession that really matters in the long run.

The kind of possession that requires exorcism might be simply an extreme condition of the surrender just described. It results in the devil prematurely becoming one with his victim in this world. This would seem to be a betrayal of a certain lack of intelligence in the devil, for to be so bold about his possession in this life opens up the possibility of exorcism and the eventual defeat of the devil so far as his victim is concerned. Perhaps the Lord allows this demonic possession as a grace, that is, a gift of warning to the victim and those who care for the victim, that the victim’s soul is in danger of immortal suffering and somebody needs to ride to the rescue … usually a holy priest trained in exorcism.

 

[Alindawyl]

If a person should become subtly possessed to where the person doesnt even know it, would God release them from their bondage out of mercy or would He require all the bells and whistles of exorcism? If its the latter, then theres no hope for the subtly possessed person?

There’s no such thing as being possessed without knowing it. A demon can mess with anyone, but to actually possess someone they need an invitation.

There are two major misconceptions about demonic possession and the exorcism rite that most people have, both of which are fed by Hollywood. One is that demons can take over people, or hop around from person to person. Demons can only possess people who exercise their free will in favor of possession.

The second is that exorcists carry on a back and forth conversation with a demon, like in the movie The Exorcist. In reality, the only thing they say directly to the demon is give orders in the name of God for the demon to depart. Demons are hyper-intelligent and can easily deceive us if we give them an opportunity. If you read the rite, you see that it’s a collection of prayers, Scripture readings, and blessings. No conversation with the demon.

It’s for our own good. Demons are fallen angels, so still have all of the powers of an angel. Angels are far more powerful and far more intelligent than humans. If we try to pit our own will against theirs, we stand about as much chance as a pill bug stands against a descending human heel. If we even begin an argument with a demon, we’ve already lost. The only winning move is not to play.

If we remain close to God then the demons can’t touch us. They can try, but they will fail miserably every time. They only succeed when we let them succeed.

 

[Thorns]

There’s no such thing as being possessed without knowing it. A demon can mess with anyone, but to actually possess someone they need an invitation.

There are two major misconceptions about demonic possession and the exorcism rite that most people have, of which are fed by Hollywood. One is that demons can take over people, or hop around from person to person. Demons can only possess people who exercise their free will in favor of possession.

The second is that exorcists carry on a back and forth conversation with a demon, like in the movie The Exorcist. In reality, the only thing they say directly to the demon is give orders in the name of God for the demon to depart. Demons are hyper-intelligent and can easily deceive us if we give them an opportunity. If you read the rite, you see that it’s a collection of prayers, Scripture readings, and blessings. No conversation with the demon.

It’s for our own good. Demons are fallen angels, so still have all of the powers of an angel. Angels are far more powerful and far more intelligent than humans. If we try to pit our own will against theirs, we stand about as much chance as a pill bug stands against a descending human heel. If we even begin an argument with a demon, we’ve already lost. The only winning move is not to play.

If we remain close to God then the demons can’t touch us. They can try, but they will fail miserably every time. They only succeed when we let them succeed.

Fr. Barron says living in sin and leaving it to fester by not going to confession is like leaving a window open for a demon to possess us. A person in such a situation hasnt handed their will over to the demon, only to sin, but apparently becomes possessed. This persons possession might go unnoticed, no?

Secondly, I recall reading about a real exorcism where a priest identifies the demon and its personality, obtains information from it, and then removes it. I have heard this is the standard? Doesnt Fr. Amorth also obtain information during big exorcisms?

Just out of total curiousity, how could a priest be deceived by a demon by conversing with it if he knows exactly what hes dealing with?

 

[glendab]

Hello Thorns.

If a person should become subtly possessed to where the person doesnt even know it, would God release them from their bondage out of mercy or would He require all the bells and whistles of exorcism? If its the latter, then theres no hope for the subtly possessed person?

The Church’s teaching on possession is correct. There is no such thing as a “subtle possession.” There is vexation, infestation, obsession, oppression and possession. A person can be either partial possessed or fully possessed or perfectly possessed. Partial possession leaves the person who is possessed aware and appearing somewhat “normal” in their lucid states but amnesiac during periods of demonic activity, usually during the attempt to exorcise the demon or demons involved. Fully possessed persons loose all contact with the “outside” world and if liberation is achieved, they will have a period of time they then have no memory of. This can be days, weeks or even years depending on each case and each case is different. *A perfectly possessed person is the rarest *I think but on the increase these days. This happens when a person gives themselves over to Satan himself in a blood pact or contract or some other ritualized action. The devil then owns them and they become his slaves. This is on the rise because of the “tolerance” folks extend to all religions even Satanism and the occult practices surrounding it. It is growing and those who practice it actually try to achieve perfect possession obscene as that may seem to you and me.

I’ve never heard of anything in any of the books I’ve read called a “subtle” possession. Perhaps you could provide the source. I’m betting it isn’t a Catholic source.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Alindawyl.

There’s no such thing as being possessed without knowing it. A demon can mess with anyone, but to actually possess someone they need an invitation.

There are two major misconceptions about demonic possession and the exorcism rite that most people have, both of which are fed by Hollywood. One is that demons can take over people, or hop around from person to person. Demons can only possess people who exercise their free will in favor of possession.

The second is that exorcists carry on a back and forth conversation with a demon, like in the movie The Exorcist. In reality, the only thing they say directly to the demon is give orders in the name of God for the demon to depart. Demons are hyper-intelligent and can easily deceive us if we give them an opportunity. If you read the rite, you see that it’s a collection of prayers, Scripture readings, and blessings. No conversation with the demon.

It’s for our own good. Demons are fallen angels, so still have all of the powers of an angel. Angels are far more powerful and far more intelligent than humans. If we try to pit our own will against theirs, we stand about as much chance as a pill bug stands against a descending human heel. If we even begin an argument with a demon, we’ve already lost. The only winning move is not to play.

If we remain close to God then the demons can’t touch us. They can try, but they will fail miserably every time. They only succeed when we let them succeed.

You are incorrect on several accounts. There is a type of amnesia which is a direct result of demonic activity in a person either partially or fully possessed. The young boy who was the actual story behind the movie The Exorcist experienced such amnesia. He lost consciousness as the demon took over and exerted his influence over the boy and the boy would carry on conversations with many who were involved in his care as if he were simply a sick and weakened child. Thankfully he didn’t remember the things he did because if you ever read the accounts you could only feel sympathy for the poor boy.

No, the demon can possess a person without an “invitation.” The false notion that you’re safe from them if you never invite them isn’t good to tell others. Any one can become a target and everyone is by the very nature of them. It is by God’s permissive will that they have any power to act anyway. But it is wrong to tell others that the ONLY way a person can become possessed is by their own willing it.

There actually are “conversations” that occur during the Rite of Exorcism and in fact, the Rite includes this dialog. It can be part of the “clash” that occurs so the Priest/Exorcist will know for certain he has expelled the demon or demons from the person or place involved. There is also a part of the Rite when the Priest/Exorcist demands to know the name of the specific demon and they do have names.

You are correct that in that ordinary persons if they suspect demonic activity in any form, whether it is a “ghost” or a benign “spirit” or any other false disguise the demon puts on, should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER engage them in any kind of conversation or request. This is one sure way to give them the hold they need to gain control. You are also correct in stating that to keep safe we should stay close to God, but we should stay close to God for much better reasons than fear of demons.

I will repeat once more, there are cases of demonic possession that occurred WITHOUT the person’s willing it in any way. That is a fact. So don’t think that you can blame those who are afflicted by devils for their plight. **Jesus had nothing but pity for them **and freed them at every opportunity and gave this ability to His disciples. It has been a integral ministry in the Church ever since Jesus walked the earth. When Jesus cast out demons He didn’t tell the crowd anything like “This person deserved it,” or “That one asked for it.” He simply freed them from their affliction and ordered those in observance to minister to them with food and attention and kindness afterwards. Read the Biblical accounts and find out what the Church teaches.

Glenda

 

[anixx]

Hello Anixx.

Po is 100% correct. The angels were all created with free will but those who chose to disobey God and rebelled NEVER will be able to change the choice they made. Their disobedience is irrevocable. They aren’t free anymore. That is one of the reasons they hate men so much and work against him - because man has been redeemed by God and when he falls he CAN turn back to God in repentance and he will be forgiven. The devils will never be able to get back what they lost at their fall. This is something each of the devils knows will never be theirs and this is the cause of something I’m sure you’ve heard of before: the envy of the devil. THAT is why they attack men. We have a Redeemer they don’t and never can have it again.

Temptation although from the devil is minor compared to actual demonic assaults. [See the story of St. Pio of Pietrelcina for an example of the difference and degree of assault. He got literally beat up at night by demons and those who had watch over him while he was in seclusion from the rest of his community would be wakened in the night by the racket of Padre Pio being assaulted by demons. They would find him bruised and bleeding in the morning and they were scared out of their wits. ]

So no Annixx, you are incorrect to say that the devils have free will and operate as if they do They no longer have any choice in the matter and their whole will is evil and there is no lesser degree of evil in what they do or can accomplish. They need people to act in concert with them and that is why they can and do seduce. They had a choice only once and they will never get it back. PoGuy is correct. St. Augustine once said that if the devils had their way all mankind would be dead. That’s a whole lot of hatred and it comes from their basic understanding that their choice is permanent and will never be revoked. Man’s however is and he can turn back to God and be forgiven. That is the bottom line as to why the devil hates me and you and every other person on the planet.

Glenda

Have you actually read Thomas Aquinas on the matter?! Or are you just expressing an opinion? Free-will and irrevocability of choice are two different matters. Though they are related, they are not one and the same. Are you saying that in Heaven we will have no free-will, either?

 

[MtnDwellar]

Have you actually read Thomas Aquinas on the matter?! Or are you just expressing an opinion? Free-will and irrevocability of choice are two different matters. Though they are related, they are not one and the same. Are you saying that in Heaven we will have no free-will, either?

A being with infused knowledge who exists outside of time cannot change its decision. The ability to change is inconsistent with its state. As you say, the inability to revoke a choice is not necessarily related to free will or lack thereof.

 

[anixx]

Let me be more clear. In the spiritual world making a choice means setting a bar, that can never be crossed again. Free will is an essential part of intellect, and the two can never be separated, nor one can cease to exist without the other. So, where there is intellect there is free-will, and vice-versa. Now, spiritual beings, like angels, make a decision in the instant they learn something new. Choice is made. Choice can never be remade. Free-will is influenced by choice, but not extinguished. It can never be, because that means removing intellect. A saved angel’s choice can never fall beyond he’s choice to be with God, and a fallen angel’s choice can never rise above his choice to reject God. But in between they exercise freely their will. So a choice of an angel that is with God, as is with the saved souls in Heaven, can do another choice only for the better, never for the worse, ie one can never reject God again. And a fallen angel’s choice,as is with the damned souls in Hell, can do another choice only for the worse, never for the better, ie one can never be with God again. The free-will is determined by previous choices, but is there nonetheless either fulfilled, in Heaven, or reduced, in Hell
To what degree is it reduced or fulfilled is the subject of another topic.

 

[MtnDwellar]

The choice can never be re-made because angels have infused knowledge. The moment they encounter a subject, they know all there is to know about that subject. So, already having full knowledge when the decision is made means that no new information can be added which will change the decision. Changing a decision is outside the purview of angels.

Since angelic beings exist outside of time, their decisions are permanent. They cannot change their minds later, because later does not exist.

 

[Alindawyl]

You are incorrect on several accounts. There is a type of amnesia which is a direct result of demonic activity in a person either partially or fully possessed. The young boy who was the actual story behind the movie The Exorcist experienced such amnesia. He lost consciousness as the demon took over and exerted his influence over the boy and the boy would carry on conversations with many who were involved in his care as if he were simply a sick and weakened child. Thankfully he didn’t remember the things he did because if you ever read the accounts you could only feel sympathy for the poor boy.

Yes, a possessed person does not always know what is going on once possession has taken place. But I said nothing about someone’s actions after they are possessed, only before.

No, the demon can possess a person without an “invitation.” The false notion that you’re safe from them if you never invite them isn’t good to tell others. Any one can become a target and everyone is by the very nature of them. It is by God’s permissive will that they have any power to act anyway. But it is wrong to tell others that the ONLY way a person can become possessed is by their own willing it.

By invitation, I did not mean to imply only an explicit invitation along the lines of, “I wish to be possessed”. If that was the impression I gave, I apologize.

Perhaps the phrase “open disposition” would better describe it.

There actually are “conversations” that occur during the Rite of Exorcism and in fact, the Rite includes this dialog. It can be part of the “clash” that occurs so the Priest/Exorcist will know for certain he has expelled the demon or demons from the person or place involved. There is also a part of the Rite when the Priest/Exorcist demands to know the name of the specific demon and they do have names.

I was going by what exorcists have told me. Every exorcist I’ve ever spoken with (granted, not many) has said that he doesn’t carry on conversations with a demon he exorcises other than a demand for its name.

I will repeat once more, there are cases of demonic possession that occurred WITHOUT the person’s willing it in any way. That is a fact. So don’t think that you can blame those who are afflicted by devils for their plight. **Jesus had nothing but pity for them **and freed them at every opportunity and gave this ability to His disciples. It has been a integral ministry in the Church ever since Jesus walked the earth. When Jesus cast out demons He didn’t tell the crowd anything like “This person deserved it,” or “That one asked for it.” He simply freed them from their affliction and ordered those in observance to minister to them with food and attention and kindness afterwards. Read the Biblical accounts and find out what the Church teaches.

Vexation, infestation, obsession, and oppression happen with or without our consent. But I was not aware that possession could. I thought all possession required that the person being possessed have an open disposition that would permit it, even if that open disposition was mostly the result of something like fear from regular demonic oppression, as long as there was at least some level of free choice on their part. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.

 

[glendab]

Hello Anixx.

Have you actually read Thomas Aquinas on the matter?! Or are you just expressing an opinion? Free-will and irrevocability of choice are two different matters. Though they are related, they are not one and the same. Are you saying that in Heaven we will have no free-will, either?

You need to read the portion you’re referring to again and look to the word that starts the sentence: OBJECTION. That means it is one of several REFUTATIONS of a basic truth that the Church teaches and that St. Thomas Aquinas is defending. The particular OBJECTION to the Truth you are referring to reads in its entirety thusly:
Whether the will of the demons is obstinate in evil?

Objection 1: It would seem that the will of the demons is not obstinate in evil. For liberty of will belongs to the nature of an intellectual being, which nature remains in the demons, as we said above (A[1]). But liberty of will is directly and firstly ordained to good rather than to evil. Therefore the demons’ will is not so obstinate in evil as not to be able to return to what is good.

Objection 2: Further, since God’s mercy is infinite, it is greater than the demons’ malice, which is finite. But no one returns from the malice of sin to the goodness of justice save through God’s mercy. Therefore the demons can likewise return from their state of malice to the state of justice.

Objection 3: Further, if the demons have a will obstinate in evil, then their will would be especially obstinate in the sin whereby they fell. But that sin, namely, pride, is in them no longer; because the motive for the sin no longer endures, namely, excellence. Therefore the demon is not obstinate in malice.

Objection 4: Further, Gregory says (Moral. iv) that man can be reinstated by another, since he fell through another. But, as was observed already (Q[63], A[8]), the lower demons fell through the highest one. Therefore their fall can be repaired by another. Consequently they are not obstinate in malice.

Objection 5: Further, whoever is obstinate in malice, never performs any good work. But the demon performs some good works: for he confesses the truth, saying to Christ: “I know Who Thou art, the holy one of God” (Mk. 1:24). “The demons” also “believe and tremble” (Jam. 2:19). And Dionysius observes (Div. Nom. iv), that “they desire what is good and best, which is, to be, to live, to understand.” Therefore they are not obstinate in malice.

**ALL OF THESE OBJECTIONS ARE FALSE!!! ** And the proving of their falsity is what made Aquinas who he is a Doctor of the Church. Just because you found a sentence in his writings and misdirected it, doesn’t make it true. To present the Objections portions of his arguments as if they are the Church’s teaching *grossly misrepresents both *Church teaching and St. Thomas Aquinas. I’m going to assume in charity that wasn’t your intention and you simply didn’t notice the writing regarding the will and nature of the demons was as Objection to Church teaching regarding the same. Please be careful when you provide quotations to include the whole thing and the context in which it is contained.

I will provide the link to those OBJECTIONS for those who care to read more about it.

sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum072.htm

Glenda

 

[MtnDwellar]

According to Aquinas:

Reply to Objection 1: The good and wicked angels have free-will, but according to the manner and condition of their state, as has been said.

 

[glendab]

Hello again Anixx.

… Free will is an essential part of intellect, and the two can never be separated,… So, where there is intellect there is free-will,…Free-will is influenced by choice, but not extinguished… A saved angel’s choice can never fall beyond he’s choice to be with God,… But in between they exercise freely their will. So a choice of an angel …one can never reject God again…To what degree is it reduced or fulfilled is the subject of another topic.

First thing you state that free will and intellect are inseparable. Not so, ever hear of impulsive behaviors or persons under compulsion? Their thoughts aren’t how they act. Or perhaps slaves who have thoughts of their own but act as they are told to not how they’d like to. Pretty simple example. And what of the mentally impaired who really are barely above vegetative states of mind who need some one else to help them do the very basic elements of living. They have a will but their intellect is completely impaired so they cannot be allowed to act upon what they think. Or babies who need to be taught how to not stick their fingers in the electric socket on the wall? No a person’s thoughts can be separate from their will. That is why St. Paul asks in Scripture for help and prayers from others because he wills the good, but falls.

Your second statement: Free will being effected by choice and not separated from thoughts, (the intellect). Again false - you must think first to make a choice. You seem to have misunderstood the basic meaning of irrevocable regarding the fallen angel’s choices and give them their free will back. They have no longer a free will. They had it only once. They rebelled. They no longer can choose good. They are permanently evil.

This permanence removes their ability to choose anything good which leads me into your third statement: That the angels who are fallen can be “saved”. This is a big mistake and one that Origen made in his re-interpretation of Salvation. He (Origen) speculated that God can and will save all persons and places and things and he included the devils in this “plan” of salvation. He was condemned for it. And I won’t say much more about your repetition of such nonsense. The devils are damned and they will never be as you suggest, saved. In charity I’ll assume you didn’t quite mean it that way. There are no “saved angels.” They will never get a second chance, as you state, to reject God again. This is a basic mispersonification of a demon - you extend to them something human that cannot be theirs. Free will.

And so you assume your understanding of the “free will” of the fallen angels is returned to them post fall at some point. This too is an error. Perhaps your understanding to the good angels needs fleshing out too. The Angels who serve God have only one will - HIS! They do it perfectly at His Command. The fallen angels cannot do this anymore. They’ve rejected it and have only one will as well, EVIL. PERIOD. They cannot do anything good. And locked into a state of permanent evil, they’ve completely lost the* free *part of the will that you and I enjoy. Does this help clear up your misunderstandings? I hope so.

Glenda

 

[lilelvispresley]

I read all of those from the Catechism. It only states the irrevocability of their choices, doesn’t state anything of them having or not having free will. You really should read Aquinas on the matter, you’ll find him most illuminating.
Here are a few things:



Read the entire article if you want. Here it is:
sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum072.htm

Yes you are correct regarding the quote from St Thomas Aquinas.

Also,

’Like humans, spirits—angelic or demonic—are understood to have a free will, according to St. Thomas Aquinas’s treatment of the topic in the Summa Theologica. Yet, even though it is free, the will of a demon or an angel nonetheless differs from ours in at least one major respect. For humans, our will is ‘moveable’—in other words we have the ability to change our minds and move from one thing to its opposite, say from faith to unbelief.'

***But it is not so with the spirits, Aquinas writes. Once they have made their choice, it can’t be undone:

So it is customary to say that man’s free-will is flexible to the opposite both before and after choice; but the angel’s free-will is flexible [to] either opposite before the choice, but not after. Therefore the good angels who adhered to justice, were confirmed therein; whereas the wicked ones, sinning, are obstinate in sin.***

 

[glendab]

Hello Alindawyl.

Vexation, infestation, obsession, and oppression happen with or without our consent. But I was not aware that possession could. I thought all possession required that the person being possessed have an open disposition that would permit it, even if that open disposition was mostly the result of something like fear from regular demonic oppression, as long as there was at least some level of free choice on their part. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.

You’re partly correct in this statement. Just as there are those who become possessed without invitation towards the devil, there ARE those who ask or invite things demonic and depending upon how intense or willful their invitations are, this has a direct bearing upon how hard it can be to liberate them once liberation is required. I will once again refer to the boy who was behind the movie The Exorcist. He inadvertently "invited’ the devil into his life via a Ouija Board experience he had with his Aunt. This coupled by the fact that he hadn’t even been Baptized left him completely defenseless when the demon came to possess him. It began with vexation and progressed to full blown possession and was very difficult to dislodge. His story can be read in the book Possessed:The True Story of an Exorcism, by Thomas B. Allen. it can be found on Amazon for cheap cheap BTW. It gives a basic understanding of what can happen in both the progression of afflictions of the devil and clears up many misunderstandings about things demonic that are common these days.

But back to your statement about culpability and invitations. They vary in degree and intensity, and thusly effect the way the demon takes hold, the prime example being that of perfect possession. In this extreme, the person who achieves a state of perfect possession does so voluntarily and with knowledge and full consent. They desire consecration to Satan and it is part of their religion. (And they have fought for and gained some religious freedoms that are protected by the courts in our land shocking as that may seem to most folks.) But I’m getting off the track here. They give themselves over to Satan and once this is achieved, that is, perfect possession they will appear perfectly normal to those innocents around them in daily life and it is there that they are sent to devastate those they can. They work fully against all you and I stand for. They are in fact, the instruments of the devil - his eyes and ears and hands and feet. Horrible but true. They rarely if ever desire to be un-possessed. Alister Crowley is one example or Charlie Manson as another. How about your basic Pagan Biker Dude? It happens.

In lesser forms of possession, both partial and full, the “invitation” can be as innocuous as reading one’s horoscope each day in the paper or seeking out the advise of a Medium and believing in ghosts. All of these tangle with the devil and are gravely sinful and do invite the devil to act in one’s life. But they don’t always cause or bring about possession. However, if possession occurs as a result, the intensity with which the individual willed their cooperation in the beginning can have a direct bearing on the degree and intensity of how entrenched the devil or devils become. Time is also a factor from first symptoms to the entrance into the picture of the exorcist. Another factor is seeking help in the wrong places and from the wrong persons and can intensify the afflicted’s symptoms. Don’t go to the witchdoctor to get help with a demon - you could wind up with two! Common sense.

Oh dear. I’ve said too much. I guess I know more about this stuff then you’d think. Oh well. Sorry for saying so much. Hope I didn’t bore anyone. I’m no expert on anything but cinnamon toast and fresh strawberries that were really yummy but I resisted adding the whipped cream to them. I’m on a diet.

Glenda