On Demonic Posession

[OneSheep]

Hello Again OneSheep.

Thank you for the reply and while I can respect your opinions there are several levels on which I cannot agree with you. Please don’t be insulted by the term I’m about to use, but it seems to fit - yours is a kind of Cafeteria Catholicism, pick what you like and leave the rest. And it really does describe the eclectic viewpoint you seem to have. Am I correct? You don’t see anything wrong with some of the things some of us Catholics call heresy - Manichaeism, Modernism, etc. and think the demon can be wholesalely exorcised by thinking differently and that God did what He did only in a figurative sense? Correct? You see things that the rest of us would call demonic in origin as only a matter of attitude semantics and mind over matters, sort of. Have I got the picture accurately? If not, correct me. Flesh it out for us.

As fro my own personal “spiritual development” I’m a convert to the faith and didn’t really have another religion before I bean my search for God and the meaning of life in general, so some of us take a different turn in the spiritual life than you have perhaps. I’m guessing your a Cradle Catholic as well. I really don’t like using stereo types but for the sake of time and polite conversation, they eliminate some of the guess work. Please don’t be offended.

Glenda

No offense taken! To me, Catholicism is about community, it is the community of followers. I do not judge anyone as a “follower” or not based on some type of doctrinal criteria, but by the will of the person to be in communion. So, hey, if someone says they are Catholic but go at it cafeteria-style, then it makes no difference to me. I know very few Catholics who completely buy in to all of the doctrines.

I look at the question. Is demonic possession central to a person’s faith? Well, some people actually “knew” there were demons before they even considered the possibility that there is a God. In that case, such an observation is pretty important to faith.

If I were to ask the person later, though, “If there were no demons, would you still be committed to follow Christ?” would they answer in the positive? I would think so, the person who develops a relationship with the trinity does not rely on seeing some negative power. And remember, saying that there is such a negative power is plain-old dualism. Am I in communion with those who see the universe dualistically? Of course, I was there too! It was part of my journey.

Do you find that St. Augustine’s words promote “Cafeteria Catholicism”? That it is through the Spirit that we see that whatsoever exists is good?

 

[glendab]

Hello Thorns.

I was referring to Diabolical Obsession, not like OCD or anything.

Being fixated on fear of the devil can probably manifest Diabolical Oppression, or like I was saying, Diabolical Obsession, since it controls you and bullies you.

Diabolic Obsession comes from the devil, thus it is called diabolic. ODC is a mental illness and one part is the repetitive actions that are its hallmark feature and can be so intense they seem almost a seizure as in those who keep repeating a word or phrase over and over and over again till they either stop themselves or get stopped. It is like a word hiccup and those who experience this type of symptom can get really upset and withdrawn to avoid the embarrassment of not being able to talk without “hiccupping” words or phrases. It is this feature that gave the shrinks a bit of confusion way back when they were just sorting through all the various and sundry ways different mental illnesses were “discovered” and treated. It was considered a type of palsy or seizure and they chose to medicate it heavily till the person couldn’t talk at all! Kinda barbaric but true. Like the Lobotomy for mood disorders that left the person without any emotions at all. But I diverge from the topic at hand.

No matter how fearful a person is they cannot out of fear generate a state of Diabolic Obsession. I’ll type out the text f one of the books I have on the subject and see if that helps you understand better what it means to be in a state of Obsession that is truly demonic in origin. It comes from the Book An Exorcist Tells His Story by Gabriele Amorth and he is considered an expert on the subject as well as an experienced Exorcist.

“Diabolic Obsession: Symptoms include sudden attacks, at times ongoing, of obsessive thoughts, sometimes even rationally absurd, but of such nature that the victim is unable to free himself. Therefore the obsessed person lives in a perpetual state of prostration, desperation, and attempts suicide. Almost always obsession influences dreams. Some people will say that this is evidence of mental illness, requiring the services of a psychiatrist of a psychologist. The same could be said of all other forms of demonic phenomena. Some symptoms, however are so inconsistent with known illnesses that they point with certainty to their evil origins.” (page 34)

There is more in this book to flesh out Father Amorth’s definition but notice he speaks of how out-of-the-ordinary for the person so afflicted the particular symptom seems and it is this that is the red flag for things demonic. An example of this would be a Sister in a Convent who although regular in her comportments all of a sudden is laid low by seemingly obsessive obscene thoughts that “come to her out of no where” and refuse to budge. Now Sister’s are very aware of their thoughts in a convent setting and are more than aware of the normal distractions that are common among those striving for singularity in their thoughts when they spend hours praying. You notice the fly on the wall more often then you’d like at Adoration or other such nonsense. But the person afflicted by devils who “implant” thoughts in the mind of their targets do so with such intensity that it isn’t self-generated at all the those who experience very often know that these thoughts aren’t theirs. However, explaining these things to another may generate accusations and so those who are so afflicted will give up telling if the person they tell only sees the surface. To me, it sounds totally horrid and I feel nothing but sympathy for someone who falls sway to the devil in this way. It is so subtle in its method that it probably goes on for years before the real cause is determined, if ever. I’ve read about this type of attack in the stories of the Saints, St. Teresa of Avila comes to mind again. No, she didn’t have OCD - she had devils trying to destroy the great works she was doing for the Church not only in her generation, but in those to come.

Keep in mind even our Lord was afflicted by devils. It really happens.

Glenda

 

[Thorns]

Glenda, perhaps I am not clear in my writing lol. I am saying possibly controlling and obsessive fear comes from the Devil to bully a person into not praying, doing good deeds, thinking about God etc because it can be so crippling and consuming.

Or maybe the person on their own shows such fear and mistrust, that this gets the attention of the evil one and he then takes over and controls, oppresses, obsesses, or even possesses through that fear.

 

[opusAquinas]

Demonic possession is possible by welcoming the devil into your life. How? Practicing the occult. The ouija board. Book on the new age and other occult thoughts. Aleister Crowley etc and magik. Fortune telling and summoning demons. Listening to obscene music. Welcoming sinful thoughts. If you “breathe” it in you will bring the demons in.

Demonic obsession can happen to even the saintly. Maybe as a test from God to show them what evil is… I’m not sure but Padre Pio suffered from diabolical obsession occasionally.

However frequent use of the sacraments will aid you. That’s why they are there.

 

[CRM_Brother]

Yes, demonic possession and diabolical obsession can stem from the usage of the occult, but it is not the only way. I had a friend while I was studying in Rome who came under a physical diabolical obsession, not through use of the occult, but an actual obsession with demons. That is, he learned a little about demons from an overheard conversation and was so scared that he delved into how to combat them in his life. Ultimately he became more concerned with keeping demons at bay than with loving Christ. This drew demons to him to keep his attention away from Christ. The priest that came to help him said that demons usually try to lure the faithful away from Christ by pretending that they (the demons and evil in general) don’t exist, or scaring the faithful so badly that they are more concerned with the demons than with Christ.

I say this as a warning; do not let fear of Satan or demons consume you. Always remember that demons are just beings that the faithful must be aware of, but ultimately lie on the fringe of our spiritual lives. Our main goal is God and if interest in the demonic takes away from that, it should be discarded. I spent four months of my life preoccupied with demons, please don’t make the same mistake I did.

 

[SCHULTZZKOPF]

Yes demonic possession can and does occur every day. Everytime one gives into sin a sort of temporary possession occurs. People who are drunk or on drugs can easily have demonic possession. I have seen it. Saw a person drunk with a contorted face of anger and hate. Twenty minutes later he crashed his speeding vehicle and killed a little seven year old girl destroyed the life of the driver, a pregnant mother who lost her baby as a result of the crash. The possessed man ran away and was caught bya security guard then became extremely combative when confronted by police. When people regain their senses often the demon departs. Sometimes they don’t and then an excorcism may be necessary.
Nowadays demons are very bold for their time of rule is limited. Wear a blessed sacramental. Maintain an active prayer life. Go to confession on a regular basis. Pray that you are not put to the test.

 

[Michael19682]

This is obviously a discussion that has many nuances and purposes.
I have recently reviewed some material on the psychology of self.
In this material, there is the expressed opinion that people–a person–
is not a single, unified entity that responds according to one set of rules.
We are more like a cast of characters in our core. Our influences.
With that in mind, and the above ideas that demons tend to distract from the
Lord’s course, it becomes a matter of opinion in determining what is a demon
with regard to minor distractions. I mean, if we are intent on taking out the
garbage, and the phone rings just as the men are coming to take it away, would
it be a demon that impels us to answer the phone?
Behaviorally, and cognitively, I can see how so-called demons can catch the
blame for any failure we have. Yet if the person is weak, had bad influences in
life, and for some reason “let in” a demon by reading or watching movies
about them – and desired to have the same “power”, then I can see what is called
actual “possession”, but only under extreme vulnerability and weakness of will.

 

[glendab]

Hello Michael.

This is obviously a discussion that has many nuances and purposes.
I have recently reviewed some material on the psychology of self.
In this material, there is the expressed opinion that people–a person–
is not a single, unified entity that responds according to one set of rules.
We are more like a cast of characters in our core. Our influences.
With that in mind, and the above ideas that demons tend to distract from the
Lord’s course, it becomes a matter of opinion in determining what is a demon
with regard to minor distractions. I mean, if we are intent on taking out the
garbage, and the phone rings just as the men are coming to take it away, would
it be a demon that impels us to answer the phone?
Behaviorally, and cognitively, I can see how so-called demons can catch the
blame for any failure we have. Yet if the person is weak, had bad influences in
life, and for some reason “let in” a demon by reading or watching movies
about them – and desired to have the same “power”, then I can see what is called
actual “possession”, but only under extreme vulnerability and weakness of will.

I take it you don’t believe in actual demonic possession. Am I correct? Is it just psychology? if so, how do you account for the Scriptural accounts of God casting out demons?

Glenda

P.S. Please get your trash to the curb on time or your wife will have a fit!

 

[Michael19682]

Hello Michael.

I take it you don’t believe in actual demonic possession. Am I correct? Is it just psychology? if so, how do you account for the Scriptural accounts of God casting out demons?

Glenda

P.S. Please get your trash to the curb on time or your wife will have a fit!

First, I don’t think that saying “It is just psychology” means that possession is a fallacy.
I think demons are entities. They are spiritual entities. It is their affect on man that is of concern. I can’t account for the Scriptural passages where God casts out demons; because those passages are miracles of healing, and, importantly, at least in the case of true possession, the exhortation to continually pray and stay close to God (I’m talking about the propensity of a demon to return with 7 more demons more evil than itself).
If I had to account for them, I would say that encountering the person of God in Jesus must have strengthened something inside the person – a kind of inverse possession. But that is tantamount, as explanation, to denying spirit; whereas I think that demons require we rethink what (s)pirit is.

 

[glendab]

Hello Michael.

First, I don’t think that saying “It is just psychology” means that possession is a fallacy.
I think demons are entities. They are spiritual entities. It is their affect on man that is of concern. I can’t account for the Scriptural passages where God casts out demons; because those passages are miracles of healing, and, importantly, at least in the case of true possession, the exhortation to continually pray and stay close to God (I’m talking about the propensity of a demon to return with 7 more demons more evil than itself).
If I had to account for them, I would say that encountering the person of God in Jesus must have strengthened something inside the person – a kind of inverse possession. But that is tantamount, as explanation, to denying spirit; whereas I think that demons require we rethink what (s)pirit is.

Thanks for the clarification of your position. A true skeptic. God bless.

Glenda

 

[SCHULTZZKOPF]

One of the greatest coups of all time is the success satan has had in convincing souls that he does not exist. Psychology has its purpose in that it can help counselors to help others who have emotional and/or mental problems, depending on the “school” or psychologist one follows. However, to rely upon the science of psychology to determine whether demons exist or are influential on humans is foolhardy. It doesn’t indicate knowledge it indicates ignorance and can be very dangerous to one’s own soul. Without giving glory to the minions of evil they are much smarter than the most intellectual, most educated and learned people here on earth or anywhere else. They will lie and deceive and trick and lead the unwary to sinful behavior without many aware of their powers.

Protect yourself. Know the difference between being smart and being well educated. Smart Christians will put on the “armor” of God. Prayer, devotion to the Triune God and our Holy and Blessed Mother and Her powerful, swift Angels. Intercessory prayer on behalf of Saints, frequent Reconciliation and reception of the Holy Eucharist, Leccio Divina, Liturgy of the Hours, and other pious practices and most of all an awareness and knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. Existentialists, Atheists, Relativism, and the denial of good and evil, and most importantly, sin, leads to much unhappiness. Look at Freud and other poor souls who took their own lives.

Living according to the plan God has for us is simple, if, we follow it. We can get so caught up in the age of information that we forget our true purpose here on earth. To know, love, and serve God here on this earth and prepare our souls to be with Him in Heaven, forever.

 

[glendab]

Hello Schultzzy.

One of the greatest coups of all time is the success satan has had in convincing souls that he does not exist. Psychology has its purpose in that it can help counselors to help others who have emotional and/or mental problems, depending on the “school” or psychologist one follows. However, to rely upon the science of psychology to determine whether demons exist or are influential on humans is foolhardy. It doesn’t indicate knowledge it indicates ignorance and can be very dangerous to one’s own soul. Without giving glory to the minions of evil they are much smarter than the most intellectual, most educated and learned people here on earth or anywhere else. They will lie and deceive and trick and lead the unwary to sinful behavior without many aware of their powers.

Protect yourself. Know the difference between being smart and being well educated. Smart Christians will put on the “armor” of God. Prayer, devotion to the Triune God and our Holy and Blessed Mother and Her powerful, swift Angels. Intercessory prayer on behalf of Saints, frequent Reconciliation and reception of the Holy Eucharist, Leccio Divina, Liturgy of the Hours, and other pious practices and most of all an awareness and knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. Existentialists, Atheists, Relativism, and the denial of good and evil, and most importantly, sin, leads to much unhappiness. Look at Freud and other poor souls who took their own lives.

Living according to the plan God has for us is simple, if, we follow it. We can get so caught up in the age of information that we forget our true purpose here on earth. To know, love, and serve God here on this earth and prepare our souls to be with Him in Heaven, forever.

Good job. Well said. And welcome to CAF!

Glenda