On the frontline of Europe’s forgotten war in Ukraine

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No, the ideas of that priest are his personal ideas.
In Lviv ( the capital of Ukrainian Greek Catholicism) on the street, in cafes, in nightlife places, you can frequently hear Russian, Polish and other foreign languages. Lviv is an international tourist center. Africans feel comfortable in schools, the Turks fly every day here as tourists.
Extreme nationalists who think in the framework of a Christian state are very unhappy with the tourism, unhappy with invasion of thousands of Donetsk aliens,including construction developers from those regions, Turkish grooms, and other vagabonds.
But since the emphasis in the recreational region is made on tourism, and this city is attractive to the people of different age and from different regions, you have to live with it.
 
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To refute the lies of the Russian propaganda about Russian-hating Nazis of Banderas, here is for you a social experiment in Lviv.
A journalist who pretends to be a tourist asks how to find a Russian Orthodox Church. In the cultural, European, civilized city of Lviv people respond sincerely and tolerantly. Literally all adequately answered the question.
It proves once again that the horror stories about Ukrainian Nazis is artificial horror story, the war was necessary to Putin to take the Crimea and so-called Novorossia.

 
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But Putin offended the honor of the ancient people, the ancient spirit, and he opened the Pandora’s box.
Therefore the amputation of Russophilia is a healthy process in Ukraine.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
But it’s easy to find and I’m sure you have, yourself. It shows that the majority of even Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine wanted to remain part of Ukraine, not Russia. I believe among Russian speakers it was 58% favoring Ukraine versus 27% wanting to be part of Russia. Among all Eastern Ukrainians the desire to remain part of Ukraine was much higher.
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No. The talk of secession is for Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk. The poll you cite was taken in a much larger region including several other oblasts outside of Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk and therefore is irrelevant to the discussion of the whether or not the inhabitants of Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk want to secede.
 
Lugansk and Donetsk had a great influence of Russia. Kharkiv in the most is Pro-Ukrainian.
I watched in YouTube Pro-Russian demonstrations in Donetsk and Lugansk before annexation, and watched demonstrations after annexation.
Now the impoverished and angry people are demanding quite the opposite.
To move to live and work in Kharkiv is much more promising than staying in Donetsk. In Donetsk some people can earn only by smuggling. Don’t know what a brave realtor will decide to buy discounted real estate there, but if that regime falls and Donetsk will return to Ukraine, it will back hope to local businesses.
 
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AlNg said:
The talk of secession is for Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk. The poll you cite was taken in a much larger region including several other oblasts outside of Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk and therefore is irrelevant to the discussion of the whether or not the inhabitants of Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk want to secede.
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Produce a credible poll saying otherwise. If not, your argument fails.

The article I cited says the only oblast that favored union with Russia was Crimea. No others.
 
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It is possible to vote regarding Pro-Russian sympathies should include the level of education, a contingent of people in Donetsk/Lugansk
My opinion is - no one educated, modern , forward-thinking people couldn’t vote for Russia.
Actually young people there are not stupid young people there are modern and European.
Even if the vote was in favor of Ukraine you can not doubt that they would be rigged.
 
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THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER IN UKRAINE EVEN WITH A WAR GOING ON !! Changes in 2018: Biometric control, lower speeds, higher wages and more,

Higher wages…

The new state budget hikes the minimum wage raise from Hr 3,200 ($113) to Hr 3,700 ($131).

Ukrainians have the lowest wages in Europe, Eurostat has reported. An average Ukrainian earns about $300 a month. The minimum wage per hour is Hr 22 ($0.78).

In comparison, Ukraine’s neighboring Hungary has only $479 minimum wage, and Poland’s is only $500. and lets not forget that prices in both Hungary and Poland is a lot higher than in Ukraine

The State Border Guard Service introduced a new system of biometric control for foreigners entering Ukraine.
“Mostly this norm will concerns citizens of Russian Federation,” Olexandr Turchynov, head of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, said during the presentation of the new biometric control system in Kyiv Zhulyany International Airport on Dec. 21.

Russian “spies with fake Ukrainian passports and identities won’t enter Ukraine anymore,” Turchynov added.
The Kremlin invaded and annexed the Crimean peninsula in March 2014 and launched a war in the eastern Donbas that has killed more than 10,000 people and uprooted more than 1 million citizens.

And a new, slower 50-kilometer per hour speed limit is designed to save lives and bring Ukraine closer to European road safety rules.
 
I strongly recommend not debating with @Profete.

He claims Christ is his Master, yet his words are clearly inspired by the evil one.
 
Your high figures you have stated about people in Donbas not wanting to leave the Ukraine do not necessarily translate to their satisfaction with the government of Ukraine itself. It can be somewhat misleading. It does not mean they are so pro-Ukraine or in some sort of love fest to remain in Ukraine. I believe some of the things they were hoping for was more freedom and usage of the Russian language, more autonomy and/Or more recognition of the people of eastern Ukraine and a more equitable distributon of resources between the West and east Ukraine. Many do want to remain part of Ukraine if the Ukrainian government addresses their issues. In time it may show that separation of The two factions may be necessary as in Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia if these issues are not resolved and there may just be enough cultural difference to warrant this to facilitate peace.
 
JW55 said:
Your high figures you have stated about people in Donbas not wanting to leave the Ukraine do not necessarily translate to their satisfaction with the government of Ukraine itself
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Of course not. Southerners were, by and large, deeply unsatisfied with Obama, but that didn’t mean any significant number of them wanted to secede.

But in the absence of any indicator other than a poll by a well-regarded organization saying eastern Ukrainians wanted to remain in Ukraine and not become part of Russia, there’s no good reason to deny the truth of it or to invent reasons why they didn’t really mean it.

And it certainly does not provide a good reason to divide the country and hand over part of it to a foreign power.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
But in the absence of any indicator other than a poll by a well-regarded organization saying eastern Ukrainians wanted to remain in Ukraine and not become part of Russia, there’s no good reason to deny the truth of it or to invent reasons why they didn’t really mean it.
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The fallacy of this line of reasoning has already been pointed out. The poll in question was taken in more than 10 oblasts in Eastern Ukraine. There are only two oblasts of Eastern Ukraine under discussion for separation Donetsk/Lugansk. In other oblasts in Eastern Ukraine, separation is not favored.
 
My point was and still is that simply supplying these poll numbers offers the illusion that the majority of people of eastern Ukraine are supportive and in agreement with the Ukrainian government, as a whole. If one has a simple line question to be answered “yes” or “no”- Do you want to remain with Ukraine or secede?, I suppose you have the answer. I think the nature of this thread is deeper than can be summarized so handily, particularly when it is to support a position on the allegiance of the people of the Donbas area. They no doubt would prefer to remain a part of the Ukraine and to face the certainty of an existing government rather than strike out on their own. Most of the blame has been placed on the east, but the west has seemed to have done littler to recognize the divide between them and to offer compromise. I see no less corruption there than I do in the east. So I see neither one as more favorable than the other. Neither the east or the west have any bragging rights to a claim of an honest government not filled with corruption. If they can’t reach some sort of compromise, then yes, dividing the country might be a last option if all else fails. Not desirable but maybe a final option if it avoids further conflict. I don’t think my comments were to deny any truth in the situation.
 
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In my part of the country, almost nobody would have said they were supportive of, or in agreement with the Obama administration, but that doesn’t mean cutting it off and making it a province of Mexico or Canada would have been the answer.

Further, I would greatly discourage the idea of rewarding aggression with territorial grants to the aggressor. Russia has absorbed Crimea. Why should Russia be given Eastern Ukraine. The only thing that will avoid future conflict will be Russia removing itself from Eastern Ukraine or Russia evicting the rest of the Ukrainians.
 
AlNg said:
The fallacy of this line of reasoning has already been pointed out. The poll in question was taken in more than 10 oblasts in Eastern Ukraine. There are only two oblasts of Eastern Ukraine under discussion for separation Donetsk/Lugansk. In other oblasts in Eastern Ukraine, separation is not favored.
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You forget that the Pew poll said that the only oblast in all Ukraine that favored separation from Ukraine and becoming part of Russia was Crimea.

And since, at the time, Russia had already taken over Crimea, even that can be questioned.
 
Not sure if your comment was directed at my post as I don’t recall saying anything about the Donbas area joining Russia.

You made a comparison of your part of the country reactions to that of Obama’s election. I think comparing Missouri and surrounding area’s reaction to voting or not voting for Obama to the situation in the Ukraine is a bit of a stretch. We are talking about apples and oranges. Very different situations, However, it is up to the people of the Ukraine on both sides to determine their fate.

Although it too is not a viable comparison with the Ukraine, in Switzerland each canton decides on a routine basis if they freely chose to continue remaining a part of Switzerland. Of course, they always chose to remain.

If there is to be a resolution in the Ukraine it would best if it comes without force, from either side.
 
Ridgerunner said:
You forget that the Pew poll said that the only oblast in all Ukraine that favored separation from Ukraine and becoming part of Russia was Crimea.
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I guess I missed that. What was the percentage of people in Donetsk/Lugansk who did not favor separation from Ukraine?
How many people were polled in these two oblasts?

There is only one other problem, as reported by Athanasiy, who says that you can be sure that the poll in the area of Donetsk/Lugansk was rigged.
Athanasiy said:
Even if the vote was in favor of Ukraine you can not doubt that they would be rigged.
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