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dvdjs
Guest
Not yet.
But then again, how long did ittake to the EP to recogniz other claims of autocephaly from Churches erstwhile within its territory?
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But then again, how long did ittake to the EP to recogniz other claims of autocephaly from Churches erstwhile within its territory?
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JW55
Guest
You lost me at “always”. I think that is a generalization and an overstatement. I think everyone understands that you don’t like the Russian government and apparently the Russian people. You have had numerous posts of this nature. What is the litany of posts of this nature intended to project, that all Russians are evil, and mean ill will for Ukrainians, or possibly anyone else? What are you hoping to accomplish?
Ukraine is a highly divided people and not one that obviously doesn’t share a common set of values. This applies not just to a west-east divide. It is plagued by corruption as much within, as without and you obviously have a highly divisive population. If Russia suddenly went away and never had anything to do with Ukraine it wouldn’t solve the problems between East and west Ukraine. It wouldn’t even solve the problem with in the western Ukraine.
Bottom line-what do you want to see happen and what do you want the rest of the world to do about the situation in Ukraine?
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Athanasiy
Guest
No that’s not true.
I’m just simply trying to refute the myth of the innocence and spirituality of the so-called older brother, аnd I am waiting for counter arguments.
I personally want this war to be over, even at the expense of our territorial integrity, but common sense dictates that people have to fight for the freedom, and sometimes fight for a centuries.
I personally want first of all to fight with our Cosa Nostra of several generations of the authorities, which are responsible for the impoverishment of the people, but being a citizen with the collective consciousness I am aware of the danger of the Russian Empire for the future of the civilized world, and I realize that corrupt elites is just a part of webs , which the ordinary citizen is not able to monitor, and for that probably needed more sophisticated and professional Western detective agencies.
If you accept the fact that instead of anti-corruption help of the West , Ukraine is used as a third-rate colony, and in the country in power, no real patriots, but mostly the clowns who make their money, it is very sad for the future of the state.
Тhe fact is that anti-corruption Maidan and the war with the Russian Empire can not be ended soon, it is a long process that has just begun.
I’m just simply trying to refute the myth of the innocence and spirituality of the so-called older brother, аnd I am waiting for counter arguments.
I personally want this war to be over, even at the expense of our territorial integrity, but common sense dictates that people have to fight for the freedom, and sometimes fight for a centuries.
I personally want first of all to fight with our Cosa Nostra of several generations of the authorities, which are responsible for the impoverishment of the people, but being a citizen with the collective consciousness I am aware of the danger of the Russian Empire for the future of the civilized world, and I realize that corrupt elites is just a part of webs , which the ordinary citizen is not able to monitor, and for that probably needed more sophisticated and professional Western detective agencies.
If you accept the fact that instead of anti-corruption help of the West , Ukraine is used as a third-rate colony, and in the country in power, no real patriots, but mostly the clowns who make their money, it is very sad for the future of the state.
Тhe fact is that anti-corruption Maidan and the war with the Russian Empire can not be ended soon, it is a long process that has just begun.
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JW55
Guest
Athanasiy-
My response In regard to your first 2 sentences:
“No that’s not true.
I’m just simply trying to refute the myth of the innocence and spirituality of the so-called older brother, аnd I am waiting for counter arguments” quote
,
I think that in the U.S. it is highly supportive of Ukraine and most people seem to have a negative opinion of Russia. So at least here, I don’t see where Russia holds an image as an older brother or spiritual guide to the Ukraine. This can be highly evidenced by the number of posters on this forum. Most are very pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia. A lot of posters here buy in to what they hear on U.S. mass media and appear to totally support the “Russia is bad”, “Ukraine is good” ideology. As a matter of fact, the U.S, has been so supportive of western Ukraine they have tried to influence elections and encourage revolution (of course this is for their benefit, not that of the Ukraine).
Ukraine is a mix of good and bad, as is Russia and the U.S. I am for Ukraine in regard to self-determination whether it be of dividing or uniting (with reservations). Those reservations are that “the Ukrainians” make those decisions themselves, not someone else. I hope the war between east and west ends soon, If they divide, then they divide. If a country is held together by force of one over the other, then it is not free and is no more than a dictatorship. My hope would be that Ukrainians both east and west would decide their own fate without the needless meddling and imperialism of the European Union, NATO, the U.S. or Russia. None of these entities are particularly interested in Ukraine for Ukrainians. They are for reasons of either economic or military gain for themselves. I am also not going to belittle the Russian people as some seem to want to do. You apparently are proud be a Ukrainian. The Russian people should also feel pride in who they are. Let’s not deny them that. They should feel no shame for who they are or of their Orthodox faith.
Both the Latin, Eastern Catholic Church and Russian Orthodox Churches all have meaningful traditions. I hope one day there can be union between the Orthodox and Catholic Church. I have never felt the gap was as wide between them as many make it.
My response In regard to your first 2 sentences:
“No that’s not true.
I’m just simply trying to refute the myth of the innocence and spirituality of the so-called older brother, аnd I am waiting for counter arguments” quote
,
I think that in the U.S. it is highly supportive of Ukraine and most people seem to have a negative opinion of Russia. So at least here, I don’t see where Russia holds an image as an older brother or spiritual guide to the Ukraine. This can be highly evidenced by the number of posters on this forum. Most are very pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia. A lot of posters here buy in to what they hear on U.S. mass media and appear to totally support the “Russia is bad”, “Ukraine is good” ideology. As a matter of fact, the U.S, has been so supportive of western Ukraine they have tried to influence elections and encourage revolution (of course this is for their benefit, not that of the Ukraine).
Ukraine is a mix of good and bad, as is Russia and the U.S. I am for Ukraine in regard to self-determination whether it be of dividing or uniting (with reservations). Those reservations are that “the Ukrainians” make those decisions themselves, not someone else. I hope the war between east and west ends soon, If they divide, then they divide. If a country is held together by force of one over the other, then it is not free and is no more than a dictatorship. My hope would be that Ukrainians both east and west would decide their own fate without the needless meddling and imperialism of the European Union, NATO, the U.S. or Russia. None of these entities are particularly interested in Ukraine for Ukrainians. They are for reasons of either economic or military gain for themselves. I am also not going to belittle the Russian people as some seem to want to do. You apparently are proud be a Ukrainian. The Russian people should also feel pride in who they are. Let’s not deny them that. They should feel no shame for who they are or of their Orthodox faith.
Both the Latin, Eastern Catholic Church and Russian Orthodox Churches all have meaningful traditions. I hope one day there can be union between the Orthodox and Catholic Church. I have never felt the gap was as wide between them as many make it.
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Athanasiy
Guest
Ahead there will be the presidential elections in Russia and the football world Cup in Russia. This year you can expect anything. This hybrid war is a kind of too long preparation for real war. Judging by the news from the war zone, its termination has not yet close.
In Shakespeare’s Macbeth, if the person dropped into the blood as in the river, he continues to go on, and nothing can stop him, but in Shakespeare’s Macbeth the ladies and gentlemen whose hands were in blood, - finished badly.
“What’s done is done.”
The justice of the Lord coming to befall those who are guilty of what happened.
In Shakespeare’s Macbeth, if the person dropped into the blood as in the river, he continues to go on, and nothing can stop him, but in Shakespeare’s Macbeth the ladies and gentlemen whose hands were in blood, - finished badly.
“What’s done is done.”
The justice of the Lord coming to befall those who are guilty of what happened.
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AlNg
Guest
The Ukrainian Orthodox church of the Kyivan Patriarchate is not recognized as canonical not just by the Russian Orthodox church but also is not recognized by His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew of the Greek Orthodox church, is it not true?
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AlNg
Guest
I think it is in the Russian vocabulary. Please see the following video where they translate
КОЛЯДКИ rozhdestvo Khristovo
as “Christmas carols.”
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AlNg
Guest
Oh, I don’t think that atheism is growing in Russia. Actually, atheism in Russia has fallen by 50 percent in the last three years. President Putin has given solid support to the Russian Orthodox Church and hundreds of new churches are being built or already have been built. According to a 2017 poll, 13% of Russians are atheists and believers make up 86% of the population.
Further, according to the poll, 74 percent of Russians view the Catholic church with “respect and benevolence.”
How does that compare with the great country of Ukraine, where we see Ukrainians tossing eggs at an icon of the Mother of God as Russian Orthodox parade with various religious icons showing their love for the Mother of God. However, I do admit that there are many Ukrainians who are wonderful people and who are religious. Some of my best friends are Ukrainian and some of them have Russian friends.
But how many Ukrainians are atheist? Isn’t it about 20% ?
And the population is about 50% atheist for France, Germany, Czechia, Denmark and Norway? Much larger than 13% atheist for Russia.
Report: Atheism in Russia Falls by 50 Percent in Three Years
The number of Russians who identify as atheists has fallen by 50 percent in just three years, according to a new report.
www.breitbart.com
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AlNg
Guest
You might try reading the article from cruxnow posted by Athanasiy. According to that article:
“In late January 2015, when the pontiff prayed for an end to the “fratricidal” conflict in eastern Ukraine, some Greek Catholics were outraged, insisting this isn’t a struggle among brothers but the product of foreign aggression from Moscow and the regime of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
In the wake of the pope’s remark, Shevchuk issued a statement saying the pope’s description of the conflict was “particularly painful for all the people in Ukraine.”
Some Greek Catholics were also disappointed in a February 2016 joint declaration between Francis and Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church, feeling the pontiff should have been more forceful in insisting that Kirill accept the legitimacy of the Eastern Catholic churches.”
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Athanasiy
Guest
I think that Kremlin (the FSB) in addition to the politics, very successfully implementing it’s influence in ecclesiologies cases as well.
The West does not consider ecclesiological structures worthy of attention, but the Kremlin understands how important is spiritual and ideological side effects.
Therefore, Russia finds ways to influence the church structures, blocks certain initiatives, and so forth.
The West does not consider ecclesiological structures worthy of attention, but the Kremlin understands how important is spiritual and ideological side effects.
Therefore, Russia finds ways to influence the church structures, blocks certain initiatives, and so forth.
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Athanasiy
Guest
Do you still focus attention on the lexical meaning of the words regarding the meeting of the Pope with Kyril?
I think that the Vatican diplomacy of Ukraine lost because of the meeting of the Pontiff with Patriarch Kyril, and lost because of “Cuba Declaration”.
That’s right: Pope Francis is against a military solution to the conflict, and UGCC supported the military conflict, supported the war.
Intellectuals of UCU initially did not support the rocking of the boat by radical, they did not support the division of people/regions on “friends and enemies” ,because of this, the radicals , who together with Yanukovych were preparing a war, chased UCU, but when it all came together so that Maidan could not win peacefully and after annexation has occurred, The UGCC supported the military solution to the conflict, that is, supported the war.
The UGCC could not take the side of peaceful solution to the conflict, as the Kiev Patriarchate and the Autocephalous Church had a Patriotic position as well.
We are supported by Western world, USA, we had the consolidation of society, increased national pride, strengthened national identity.
This is a very serious processes. Ukrainians make the history.
If Pope Francis does not understand the situation, in this instance, in our context of situation, then pacifism is fatal.
If Pope Francis is right, and a Christian ought to be above patriotism, and ought to give up the regions at the expense of national integrity, then right in this situation it is very difficult to apply this for - Ukrainian soldier and a Ukrainian patriot.
I think that the Vatican diplomacy of Ukraine lost because of the meeting of the Pontiff with Patriarch Kyril, and lost because of “Cuba Declaration”.
That’s right: Pope Francis is against a military solution to the conflict, and UGCC supported the military conflict, supported the war.
Intellectuals of UCU initially did not support the rocking of the boat by radical, they did not support the division of people/regions on “friends and enemies” ,because of this, the radicals , who together with Yanukovych were preparing a war, chased UCU, but when it all came together so that Maidan could not win peacefully and after annexation has occurred, The UGCC supported the military solution to the conflict, that is, supported the war.
The UGCC could not take the side of peaceful solution to the conflict, as the Kiev Patriarchate and the Autocephalous Church had a Patriotic position as well.
We are supported by Western world, USA, we had the consolidation of society, increased national pride, strengthened national identity.
This is a very serious processes. Ukrainians make the history.
If Pope Francis does not understand the situation, in this instance, in our context of situation, then pacifism is fatal.
If Pope Francis is right, and a Christian ought to be above patriotism, and ought to give up the regions at the expense of national integrity, then right in this situation it is very difficult to apply this for - Ukrainian soldier and a Ukrainian patriot.
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AlNg
Guest
Yes, because I do agree that a peaceful solution to the conflict in Ukraine should be found and that war is not the solution:
"26. We deplore the hostility in Ukraine that has already caused many victims, inflicted innumerable wounds on peaceful inhabitants and thrown society into a deep economic and humanitarian crisis. We invite all the parts involved in the conflict to prudence, to social solidarity and to action aimed at constructing peace. We invite our Churches in Ukraine to work towards social harmony, to refrain from taking part in the confrontation, and to not support any further development of the conflict. "
I don’t agree with that. I think that it would have been better to wait until the next Ukrainian presidential election and remove Yanukovych peacefully. He was elected peacefully and the rules of the constitution were not followed in removing him. This led to the killing and death of 9000 people. I believe that it would have been better not to kill those 9000 people and to have resolved this issue peacefully.
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Athanasiy
Guest
That’s the point, Yanukovych couldn’t be kicked out peacefully.
The radicals are so much squeezed the moderate once, that to prevent the war and to advocate pacifism would not be heroism but betrayal of national interests.
The radicals are so much squeezed the moderate once, that to prevent the war and to advocate pacifism would not be heroism but betrayal of national interests.
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Athanasiy
Guest
Here is the testimony of one Jesuit-
David Nazar SJ, the witness of the Ukrainian Maidan.
Ukraine: “А spiritual journey in a political guise”
www.thinkingfaith.org
David Nazar SJ, the witness of the Ukrainian Maidan.
Ukraine: “А spiritual journey in a political guise”
Ukraine: A spiritual journey in a political guise
Writing from Ukraine, David Nazar SJ gave a first-hand account of the events of early 2014 in the country. What was really going on in this ‘apocalyptic’ confrontation between the people and the government?
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Athanasiy
Guest
Patriarch Kirill is the exact opposite of the Pope.
For the Pontiff -" there is no excuse for war and any war is loss. "
-“The only way to win is not to fight.”
Kirill called upon quite different- “they declared undeclared war to us.”
“Our opponents want to destroy Russia.”
That is, I understand that in the 21st century for the Kirill,- the religion is inseparable from statehood, but for the Pontiff, - the statehood, state, patriotism has lost its historical importance?
Point me to the right idea.
For the Pontiff -" there is no excuse for war and any war is loss. "
-“The only way to win is not to fight.”
Kirill called upon quite different- “they declared undeclared war to us.”
“Our opponents want to destroy Russia.”
That is, I understand that in the 21st century for the Kirill,- the religion is inseparable from statehood, but for the Pontiff, - the statehood, state, patriotism has lost its historical importance?
Point me to the right idea.
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AlNg
Guest
I don’t see how you can know that. It seems to me that this is an excuse, trying to justify the killing of 9000 people. Yanukovich was elected peacefully and another election was coming up. If that election had been held, he may have retained power or he may have been thrown out peacefully.
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Athanasiy
Guest
I wrote that special services are preparing for a very long time certain operations. Special services sometimes have " plan B", and sometimes another extra plan in case of various failures.
That night when at square has remained not so many students as before, it was then that someone needed the forceful dispersal of the Maidan.
For us , there are many question which no body can answer.
For example, in some hours prior to dispersal of the Maidan, Klitschko(candidate in the new government and today’s mayor of Kyiv) has suddenly taken his equipment off the stage.
At the time of dispersal of the Maidan suddenly from somewhere appeared television. Ukraine Channel-5(who belongs to Poroshenko)
What was the sense to put up a Christmas tree just then at 4: 00 in the morning?
From where suddenly, from the Crimea there was the military division “Berkut”?
I am outraged by the price which was later paid by the students.
Why did they have to shoot those kids?
Nobody still can’t answer these questions.
Some believe that the scenario was beneficial to those who are now in power, but what happened is what happened.
“What’s done, is done”
In Shakespeare’s Makbet in the struggle for power there was a formula-“Be bloody bold and resolute.”
but we also know what the end is of those who profess such a formula.
That night when at square has remained not so many students as before, it was then that someone needed the forceful dispersal of the Maidan.
For us , there are many question which no body can answer.
For example, in some hours prior to dispersal of the Maidan, Klitschko(candidate in the new government and today’s mayor of Kyiv) has suddenly taken his equipment off the stage.
At the time of dispersal of the Maidan suddenly from somewhere appeared television. Ukraine Channel-5(who belongs to Poroshenko)
What was the sense to put up a Christmas tree just then at 4: 00 in the morning?
From where suddenly, from the Crimea there was the military division “Berkut”?
I am outraged by the price which was later paid by the students.
Why did they have to shoot those kids?
Nobody still can’t answer these questions.
Some believe that the scenario was beneficial to those who are now in power, but what happened is what happened.
“What’s done, is done”
In Shakespeare’s Makbet in the struggle for power there was a formula-“Be bloody bold and resolute.”
but we also know what the end is of those who profess such a formula.
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Athanasiy
Guest
I heard that in the Crimea and in the so-called Novorossiya teachers are forced to teach children a pseudo-Soviet history.
Glorification of Stalin, glorification of Ivan the Terrible, public justification of draconian laws against national liberation oppositions in Chechnya, all these are the signs of the historic Russian love for totalitarianism and authoritarian whip.
MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Russian historian whose exposure of Soviet leader Josef Stalin’s crimes angered state officials is due to begin enforced psychiatric testing this week amid fears he will be falsely declared insane, his lawyer said on Tuesday.
Yuri Dmitriev, 61, is on trial in northwest Russia on charges brought by state prosecutors of involving his adopted daughter, then 11, in child pornography, of illegally possessing “the main elements of” a firearm, and of depravity involving a minor.
Some of Russia’s leading cultural figures say Dmitriev was framed because his focus on Stalin’s crimes - he found a mass grave with up to 9,000 bodies dating from the Soviet dictator’s Great Terror in the 1930s - jars with the latter-day Kremlin narrative that Russia must not be ashamed of its past.
The narrative has taken on added importance ahead of a March presidential election which polls show incumbent Vladimir Putin, who uses his country’s World War Two victory when Stalin was in charge to bolster national pride, is on track to win.Russian historian who exposed Stalin's crimes faces enforced psychiatric testing
Glorification of Stalin, glorification of Ivan the Terrible, public justification of draconian laws against national liberation oppositions in Chechnya, all these are the signs of the historic Russian love for totalitarianism and authoritarian whip.
MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Russian historian whose exposure of Soviet leader Josef Stalin’s crimes angered state officials is due to begin enforced psychiatric testing this week amid fears he will be falsely declared insane, his lawyer said on Tuesday.
Yuri Dmitriev, 61, is on trial in northwest Russia on charges brought by state prosecutors of involving his adopted daughter, then 11, in child pornography, of illegally possessing “the main elements of” a firearm, and of depravity involving a minor.
Some of Russia’s leading cultural figures say Dmitriev was framed because his focus on Stalin’s crimes - he found a mass grave with up to 9,000 bodies dating from the Soviet dictator’s Great Terror in the 1930s - jars with the latter-day Kremlin narrative that Russia must not be ashamed of its past.
The narrative has taken on added importance ahead of a March presidential election which polls show incumbent Vladimir Putin, who uses his country’s World War Two victory when Stalin was in charge to bolster national pride, is on track to win.Russian historian who exposed Stalin's crimes faces enforced psychiatric testing
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Athanasiy
Guest
It rides a humble train of the Patriarch Kyrill.
The amateur video.
The inconvenience to drivers is still half bids, but for example for emergency services such as ambulance, this tuple is really inconvenient.
This sequel to thinking how important the power of the person who holds spiritual propaganda banner of the Russian Empire.
The amateur video.
The inconvenience to drivers is still half bids, but for example for emergency services such as ambulance, this tuple is really inconvenient.
This sequel to thinking how important the power of the person who holds spiritual propaganda banner of the Russian Empire.
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