On the Number of Sins which God Pardons No More

[mVitus]

We have achieved Godwin’s law!

Anyways, Trinity, I remember a question-answer segment before confirmation and one of the things that’s stuck with me was when answering a question anout why hell exists how the youth leader also stressed God’s mercy and that how even Hitler, if he was truly contrite at his death, could go to Heaven.
And one thing I think you’re overlooking is that contrition isn’t a get-out-jail free card when it comes to the temporal consequences of sin. Hitler would sfill have to suffer temporal consequences in Purgatory.

And as pensmama pointed out, St. Paul started out persecuting Christians. Yet he’s arguably the 3rd most important person in Christian history. (1 is Jesus, 2 is (IMO) Peter.) God’s love is more than ours and when we repent, He forgives.

 

[LilyM]

We have achieved Godwin’s law!

Anyways, Trinity, I remember a question-answer segment before confirmation and one of the things that’s stuck with me was when answering a question anout why hell exists how the youth leader also stressed God’s mercy and that how even Hitler, if he was truly contrite at his death, could go to Heaven.
And one thing I think you’re overlooking is that contrition isn’t a get-out-jail free card when it comes to the temporal consequences of sin. Hitler would sfill have to suffer temporal consequences in Purgatory.

And as pensmama pointed out, St. Paul started out persecuting Christians. Yet he’s arguably the 3rd most important person in Christian history. (1 is Jesus, 2 is (IMO) Peter.) God’s love is more than ours and when we repent, He forgives.

I would say the 4th (after the Blessed Virgin) - or possibly equal 3rd alongside Peter - not that either is necessarily more important than the other.

 

[LilyM]

I have made accusations against no souls except for Hitler. If I am being called a nasty person for criticizing Hitler I think I can be proud of that

You’re not being called a nasty person, you’re simply being called wrong.

Remember all those people in scripture who made accusations against the woman caught in adultery, assuming that Jesus would approve their condemnation of her? Remember the Good Thief, condemned to crucifixion alongside Our Lord? Who admitted that he deserved his punishment but threw himself on Christ’s mercy?

Jesus showed in both these cases that, if repentance is sincere, forgiveness, and salvation, can indeed be immediate. And that God’s mercy is greater than we can possibly know.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

You’re not being called a nasty person, you’re simply being called wrong.

Remember all those people in scripture who made accusations against the woman caught in adultery, assuming that Jesus would approve their condemnation of her? Remember the Good Thief, condemned to crucifixion alongside Our Lord? Who admitted that he deserved his punishment but threw himself on Christ’s mercy?

Jesus showed in both these cases that, if repentance is sincere, forgiveness, and salvation, can indeed be immediate. And that God’s mercy is greater than we can possibly know.

Incomparable. Hitler’s crimes were far greater

 

[mVitus]

I would say the 4th (after the Blessed Virgin) - or possibly equal 3rd alongside Peter - not that either is necessarily more important than the other.

Whoops, I forgot about her. (Sorry.) So yeah, 4th.

Trinity, recall the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Would you say the rich man waa condemned because he was a greater sinner than Paul or because he didn’t repent? God’s mercy when we are contrite is greater than any sin.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Whoops, I forgot about her. (Sorry.) So yeah, 4th.

Trinity, recall the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Would you say the rich man waa condemned because he was a greater sinner than Paul or because he didn’t repent? God’s mercy when we are contrite is greater than any sin.

Mvitus a simple apology to God doesn’t justify Hitler’s actions and won’t allow him into heaven.

 

[edward_george]

Mvitus a simple apology to God doesn’t justify Hitler’s actions and won’t allow him into heaven.

Perfect contrition isn’t a “simple apology.” It’s to repent of one’s sins out of love of God and dread at having offended him, and not motivated by fear of hell. We don’t know if Hitler had that at the end, and it’s fairly unlikely. But through ways known only to God, grace can given for our repentance, even to the most hardened sinner. There is always hope.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on just how one gets to heaven? This is not the first thread you’ve posted to where you seem to doubt that certain people can be saved.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[Reepicheep]

Hitler committed to many sins. He is a rare exception.

God is not so limited. If Hitler repented than Hitler was saved.

That’s not going to let you into heaven after you committed murder of over 50 million innocent Jewish people. Hitler just doesn’t get to say oh I’m sorry about that and get to go to heaven

There is more to repentance than ‘just saying oh I’m sorry’. Further, repentance is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Hitler would be spending the rest of Human history in the Deep Purgatory.

It is not against Church teaching to believe that God would want nothing to do with the man who murdered millions of Jews

I’m pretty sure it* is *against Church teaching to say that God would refuse to forgive someone who genuinely repented.
Bear in mind that “I forgive you” does not equal “and you get no punishment nor have to be purified.” Purgatory is a thing.

The church teaches that we can unilaterally say some evil men are in hell but only in rare instances. Hitler is one of those rare instances

Again I’m pretty sure the Church says we *must not *say any such thing unless there has been a Divine revelation to that effect.

Once again for some scenes a simple apology or confession is not sufficient enough to get into heaven. Hitler is in hell for two simple reasons. Number one he was a peer human evil mean with no remorse in him. Number 2 he murdered millions and millions of people. I think would be quite shocking if the simple confession allowed Hitler to go to heaven. Surely there’s presence would torment the millions of people he cruelly murdered in heaven

Repentance is not ‘a simple apology’ and Hitler, if he repented, did not just get to stroll past the gates of Heaven. He went to Purgatory where he has to expiate every single murder, every single act of cruelty, every single act of hate. “You shall not come out from there until you have paid the last penny.”

Opposition to killing innocent Jews is definitely rooted in Scripture. What are you talking about? I feel like I don’t understand your argument fully. Hitler was a terrible terrible human being he violated so many of God’s natural laws. It is rooted in Scripture that God would condemn him to Hell on his judgement day

Nobody in this thread is saying Hitler should have been allowed to kill Jews. They are saying God’s forgiveness is greater then any sins, however massive or horrible, if the sinner truly repents.

“Hitler was a terrible human being”. Yes. Yes he was.
“Rooted in Scripture that God would condemn him”. I very much doubt the name of Adolf Hitler is to be found in Scripture.
It is rooted in Scripture that the sinner who repents shall be saved and the sinner who refuses to repent shall be lost.

Mvitus a simple apology to God doesn’t justify Hitler’s actions and won’t allow him into heaven.

Nothing justifies Hitler’s actions, and the other posters to this thread are not saying that anything could.
Forgiveness is not condoning nor excusing; and repentance is not a simple apology. Also as I mentioned before, Purgatory is a thing.

 

[Bookcat]

Let us remember Jesus of Nazareth is The Lamb and the Good Shepherd …

"Jesus is called the Lamb: He is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. Someone might think: but how can a lamb, which is so weak, a weak little lamb, how can it take away so many sins, so much wickedness? With Love. With his meekness. Jesus never ceased being a lamb: meek, good, full of love, close to the little ones, close to the poor. He was there, among the people, healing everyone, teaching, praying. Jesus, so weak, like a lamb. However, he had the strength to take all our sins upon himself, all of them.

“But, Father, you don’t know my life: I have a sin that…, I can’t even carry it with a truck…”.

Many times, when we examine our conscience, we find some there that are truly bad! But he carries them. He came for this: to forgive, to make peace in the world, but first in the heart. Perhaps each one of us feels troubled in his heart, perhaps he experiences darkness in his heart, perhaps he feels a little sad over a fault… He has come to take away all of this, He gives us peace, he forgives everything. “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away sin”: he takes away sin, it’s root and all! This is salvation Jesus brings about by his love and his meekness. And in listening to what John the Baptist says, who bears witness to Jesus as the Saviour, our confidence in Jesus should grow. Many times we trust a doctor: it is good, because the doctor is there to cure us; we trust in a person: brothers and sisters can help us. It is good to have this human trust among ourselves. But we forget about trust in the Lord: this is the key to success in life. Trust in the Lord, let us trust in the Lord! “Lord, look at my life: I’m in the dark, I have this struggle, I have this sin…”; everything we have: “Look at this: I trust in you!”. And this is a risk we must take: to trust in Him, and He never disappoints."

~Pope Francis

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20140119_omelia-parrocchia-sacro-cuore-gesu_en.html

"Jesus is the “Good Shepherd” who goes in search of lost sheep, who knows his sheep and lays down his life for them (cf. Mt 18:12-14; Lk 15:4-7; Jn 10:2-4, 11-18). He is the way, the right path that leads us to life (cf. Jn 14:6), the light that illuminates the dark valley and overcomes all our fears (cf. Jn 1:9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:46).

He is the generous host who welcomes us and rescues us from our enemies, preparing for us the table of his body and his blood (cf. Mt 26:26-29; Mk 14:22-25); Lk 22:19-20) and the definitive table of the messianic banquet in Heaven (cf. Lk 14:15ff; Rev 3:20; 19:9). He is the Royal Shepherd, king in docility and in forgiveness, enthroned on the glorious wood of the cross (cf. Jn 3:13-15; 12:32; 17:4-5)."

~Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20111005_en.html

"I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”.[1] The Lord does not disappoint those who take this risk; whenever we take a step towards Jesus, we come to realize that he is already there, waiting for us with open arms.

Now is the time to say to Jesus: “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. How good it feels to come back to him whenever we are lost!

Let me say this once more: God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy.

Christ, who told us to forgive one another “seventy times seven” (Mt 18:22) has given us his example: he has forgiven us seventy times seven. Time and time again he bears us on his shoulders.

No one can strip us of the dignity bestowed upon us by this boundless and unfailing love. With a tenderness which never disappoints, but is always capable of restoring our joy, he makes it possible for us to lift up our heads and to start anew. Let us not flee from the resurrection of Jesus, let us never give up, come what will. May nothing inspire more than his life, which impels us onwards!"

~ Pope Francis

APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
EVANGELII GAUDIUM

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html#I.%E2%80%82A_joy_ever_new,_a_joy_which_is_shared

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Reepicheep

“We have the false [Protestant] principle that pretty much everybody is going to Heaven. You don’t have to do anything in particular except make a vague act of faith at some point in your life. But those of us who know, are aware that salvation is difficult. The road is narrow.”

• Rev. Patrick Perez

There is a point on a humans life on earth where a human so evil has reached the point of no return. Hitler ignored and enjoyed the cries of death from millions of people, Sure when Hitler was about to enter the gates of Hell, he may have cried out for Gods mercy knowing the terrible fire that awaited him, but to no avail. God ignored him like he ignored the millions of people who died under his watch.

 

[porthos11]

Reepicheep

“We have the false [Protestant] principle that pretty much everybody is going to Heaven. You don’t have to do anything in particular except make a vague act of faith at some point in your life. But those of us who know, are aware that salvation is difficult. The road is narrow.”

• Rev. Patrick Perez

There is a point on a humans life on earth where a human so evil has reached the point of no return. Hitler ignored and enjoyed the cries of death from millions of people, Sure when Hitler was about to enter the gates of Hell, he may have cried out for Gods mercy knowing the terrible fire that awaited him, but to no avail. God ignored him like he ignored the millions of people who died under his watch.

No one can beg for mercy when he’s dead. For as long as one is alive, one always has the chance to truly repent. Not an empty “I’m sorry” but a true sorrow for sin. Even a man like Hitler. If he was dead and about to enter the gates of hell, no repentance is possible. But till his last breath, he had a chance, despite what he had done.

It is more than likely Hitler is in hell. But it’s not because God ignored him. If he’s in hell, it’s because he died unrepentant. But we do not know the state of any man’s soul with the certainty of faith, even though we can be reasonably certain based on the way he lived his life.

If he had not killed himself, experienced true sorrow for sin, been absolved and amended his life, even if it was to end soon with his neck in a noose, he would have been saved, even if it meant a LONG stint in Purgatory. And he would have had the least share in the glory of heaven.

Hitler should be a lesson too for those who insist on sinning. Continued, unrepented sin can so harden a person that he would no longer seek forgiveness or respond to grace. See how Hitler would rather kill himself and risk damnation rather than be captured. Whereas there are examples of Nazis having expressed remorse for their deeds and worthily receiving absolution before they were hanged. For those men, we can hold out the strong hope that they were saved.

The limit is not with God. The limit is with man.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Hello my friends,
I know many of you may have heard and read this sermon yourselves, and after reading it myself, does the Church profess this as doctrine? That God Himself assigns to each person a number of sins they are within the limit of committing and should they surpass this limit, they will be forgiven no more? Does St. Alphonsus de Liguori wish us to take this sermon to heart as if WE did have a certain limit to the number of sins we were allowed to commit and living with that idea in mind? If anyone would kindly relay the Church’s opinion on this matter, it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you very much.
God bless you.
:thankyou:

The answer to your question comes from God the Father Himself, and He tells us directly that the greater the sinner, the greater the rights to His mercy.

 

[mVitus]

While this is private revelation, I’d also like to put forth a quote from Mary to St. Bridget. (Emphasis mine.)

“No matter how numerous a person’s sins may be, if he turns to me with a sincere purpose of amendment I am prepared forthwith to receive him graciously, for I do not regard the number of sins he has comitted, but only look upon the dispositions with which he comes to me; for I feel no aversion in healing his wounds, because I am called and am in truth the Mother of Mercy.”

 

[Wesrock]

That’s not going to let you into heaven after you committed murder of over 50 million innocent Jewish people. Hitler just doesn’t get to say oh I’m sorry about that and get to go to heaven

If he truly accepted Christ and repented he would.

He’d probably be due an incredible amount of purgation before entering, though.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

While this is private revelation, I’d also like to put forth a quote from Mary to St. Bridget. (Emphasis mine.)

“No matter how numerous a person’s sins may be, if he turns to me with a sincere purpose of amendment I am prepared forthwith to receive him graciously, for I do not regard the number of sins he has comitted, but only look upon the dispositions with which he comes to me; for I feel no aversion in healing his wounds, because I am called and am in truth the Mother of Mercy.”

You took this quote out of context, by your logic you can commit all the horrendous sins you want and at the end ask for forgiveness and find a priest for confession knowing that if you confess you’ll make it to heaven.

 

[mVitus]

If your repentance is true, yes. But also remember Confession isn’t magic. You need at least imperfect contrition. Someone who says “I’ll do all this and just confess it.” may not have that contrition, though they might, after going that course, realize how cavalier they were and then repent. So yes I do believe you could be a huge sinner and still go to Heaven provided you repent. Purgatory may be long, I can’t claim to know how long it is, but God would not reject the repentant soul.

Recall the Prodigal Son. As soon as he turned back home, his father came running.

Recall the sinful woman of the city who asked for mercy and washed Jesus’ feet with her tears. Those to whom much is given, love much.

Recall the lost lamb. He went out and searched for the lamb.

Recall Adam and Eve. It’s quite arguable that most of what’s happened would never have of occured if they’d just not taken the fruit, but God sought them out in the Garden as the story goes.

Recall Peter who denounced Jesus thrice. He became the first pope, by God’s will.

Recall Nineveh which God was going to destroy, but didn’t when they took to Jonah’s words.

Our Lord is a God of mercy. If we ask for His forgiveness, He will forgive.

 

[mVitus]

Don’t know why I didn’t think of this before, but the Ask An Apologist section actually answered the original question.

“It is true that with God mercy and justice are one; but this does not put a limit on His love for us. Certainly, when we confess our sins and receive absolution for them from Him through His priest, He will NEVER take back that forgiveness; and so long a we repent, He will always forgive seventy times seven, as He says in Mt. 18:22. His love for us is has no limit.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1032854

And as the subject of the unforgiveable sin is somewhat similar

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61307

To emphasize the Bible quote

“All sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”. Mark 3:29

And blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is defined as not repenting, so a person that repents cannot be guilty of it by the very nature of what it is.

And with your earlier argument that Hitler’s sins were too great, I’m reminded of a Parish Mission where the speaker mentioned how they’d sometimes have a daydream. In it he’d be in a boat with Jesus and a bunch of people, murderers, adulterers, ect. So he’d tap Jesus on the shoulder and say, “These people are murderers and whatnot. Big sinners. I should be in the little sinner boat.”
So Jesus would reply, “Have you ever hated your brother.”
“Well, yeah.”
“Hating your brother is the same as killing him. Have you ever lusted at a woman?”
“Yeah.”
“Lusting after a woman is the same as committing adultery.”
And so he’d realize he was in the right boat with the big sinners.

 

[LilyM]

Reepicheep

“We have the false [Protestant] principle that pretty much everybody is going to Heaven. You don’t have to do anything in particular except make a vague act of faith at some point in your life. But those of us who know, are aware that salvation is difficult. The road is narrow.”

• Rev. Patrick Perez

There is a point on a humans life on earth where a human so evil has reached the point of no return. Hitler ignored and enjoyed the cries of death from millions of people, Sure when Hitler was about to enter the gates of Hell, he may have cried out for Gods mercy knowing the terrible fire that awaited him, but to no avail. God ignored him like he ignored the millions of people who died under his watch.

True, you don’t gain salvation by a “vague act of faith at some point in your life”.

Repentance unto salvation, which we are talking about, is much more than that - it requires all of the following:

a) a very specific recognition of the full extent and gravity of one’s mortal sins,
b) real sorrow at the offence they have caused God, motivated by love for Him,
c) a firm intention to sin no more,
d) successful perseverance in that intention (ie actually sinning no more, at least not mortal sins) unto the point of death.

These are the requirements. Salvation is a grace, a gift which God is willing to bestow upon each and every one of those who genuinely seek it. The seeking is the point, and the difficulty in that many are not genuine in their seeking due to continued attachment to their sin.

You seem to imply something entirely different, however. You seem to imply that salvation is some sort of reward that you, but not Hitler, will deserve or merit by your own actions of either committing comparatively fewer sins than he or (perhaps) doing more acts of penitence in your life than he.

This is the wrong thinking of the disgruntled older brother of the Prodigal Son. It is also the wrong thinking of the disgruntled workers in another parable of Christ’s - the parable where those who were hired at dawn and worked all through the day were paid just exactly the same as those who were hired at the end of the day and so did very little work.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

True, you don’t gain salvation by a “vague act of faith at some point in your life”.

Repentance unto salvation, which we are talking about, is much more than that - it requires all of the following:

a) a very specific recognition of the full extent and gravity of one’s mortal sins,
b) real sorrow at the offence they have caused God, motivated by love for Him,
c) a firm intention to sin no more,
d) successful perseverance in that intention (ie actually sinning no more, at least not mortal sins) unto the point of death.

These are the requirements. Salvation is a grace, a gift which God is willing to bestow upon each and every one of those who genuinely seek it. The seeking is the point, and the difficulty in that many are not genuine in their seeking due to continued attachment to their sin.

You seem to imply something entirely different, however. You seem to imply that salvation is some sort of reward that you, but not Hitler, will deserve or merit by your own actions of either committing comparatively fewer sins than he or (perhaps) doing more acts of penitence in your life than he.

This is the wrong thinking of the disgruntled older brother of the Prodigal Son. It is also the wrong thinking of the disgruntled workers in another parable of Christ’s - the parable where those who were hired at dawn and worked all through the day were paid just exactly the same as those who were hired at the end of the day and so did very little work.

Unfortunately, that is not what I am implying. I more then welcome those who turn away from christ, or those who have commited terrible deeds back into the church. And if not, I hope they find it in their heart to find salvation with God before they die. The thinking I strongly detest is that since Hitler was baptized, or that he may have found god at the last moment, he automatically has a higher chance of getting into heaven then a lifelong atheist who dies a atheist and lived a charitable life. I detest the fact that just because the atheist died a atheist it means he goes to hell. I remind you of the Good Samaritan. Lets put it this way, 10 Catholics who believe in God walk by a beaten man on the side of the road. They laugh at him, spit on him, and steal his only possesions. They say we are baptized, we are catholic, We can just confess and go to heaven. The Atheist takes the man to a hospital, pays for his medical bills, and make sure he will be on solid footing when he is released. I think that Jesus would judge the Atheist more kindly on judgement day. Any thoughts?

 

[Wesrock]

Unfortunately, that is not what I am implying. I more then welcome those who turn away from christ, or those who have commited terrible deeds back into the church. And if not, I hope they find it in their heart to find salvation with God before they die. The thinking I strongly detest is that since Hitler was baptized, or that he may have found god at the last moment, he automatically has a higher chance of getting into heaven then a lifelong atheist who dies a atheist and lived a charitable life. I detest the fact that just because the atheist died a atheist it means he goes to hell. I remind you of the Good Samaritan. Lets put it this way, 10 Catholics who believe in God walk by a beaten man on the side of the road. They laugh at him, spit on him, and steal his only possesions. They say we are baptized, we are catholic, We can just confess and go to heaven. The Atheist takes the man to a hospital, pays for his medical bills, and make sure he will be on solid footing when he is released. I think that Jesus would judge the Atheist more kindly on judgement day. Any thoughts?

We’ll all be held to account for our sins, but nobody gets to Heaven alone. A man sinner who knows his place before God and despises his sins is different than a nice man who sees no need for God, which is perhaps an even greater sin.

You seem to view Confession as some type of magic spell, something legalistic, as if it’s a get out of jail free card. It’s not. Penitents are called to repent. That isn’t simply going through the motions, but an interior transformation and conversion to Christ.

God desires to transform us, but we have to be open to that. He won’t force someone who rejects him. If a less charitable man is open to that transformation, even if he frequently falls into sin, God will scrub him clean, however long it takes. If a more charitable men dies in a cleaner state bit rejects God, God won’t necessarily decide to scrub him clean, but leave him as he is, dirt and all. This isn’t just a matter of being baptized, though, it’s a matter of cooperation with God. And if someone opens themselves up to that cooperation with God’s grace, God will work with them.

The men who walked by, laughed, and stole, in your example. Did they “just go to Confession?” Or did they truly realize how much they offended God and man and wished to repent and repair that relationship?