On the Number of Sins which God Pardons No More

[Reepicheep]

Yes, And I still disagree. This still places a ridiculous amount of influence on baptist. This article is suggesting that if a 1 year old child dies without being baptized it somehow has a worse chance of getting into heaven then a child who was baptized. God would not be so cruel. What if the Athiest does not seek God but is still good like the good samaritan. Thats the issue here. Are we honestly suggesting that he goes to hell because he did not believe in God on his deathbed or did not have some life changing moment…

…What?

Do you really think the Church teaches that a baby can go to Hell? It is not possible to go to Hell unless you have committed a mortal sin and refused to repent of it. A one-year-old child is simply not capable of such a thing.

And no, we are not supposing the atheist goes to hell.

 

[Reepicheep]

When the Athiest dies, and comes before god at his judgement he would obviously believe. Is it still to late at that time in your opinion?

An atheist may be saved even if he never came to believe in God in this life.

 

[Reepicheep]

You have a very basic understanding of the wisdom of God. God doesnt seperate us into categories of Catholics and Non Catholics, then sends the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church. God is to complex and compassionate for that my dear. Let me ask you, Do you trust in the wisdom of God, or are you determined in damning those who are not apart of the church and not invincibly ignorant to hell?

No, God does not separate us into Catholics and Non Catholics, then send the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church.

That He does so is not the teaching of Mother Church.

You are trying to refute statements that nobody in this thread has made.

 

[Wesrock]

You have a very basic understanding of the wisdom of God. God doesnt seperate us into categories of Catholics and Non Catholics, then sends the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church. God is to complex and compassionate for that my dear. Let me ask you, Do you trust in the wisdom of God, or are you determined in damning those who are not apart of the church and not invincibly ignorant to hell?

You err, sir. Nobody here is determined to damn atheists to Hell. We are merely articulating what has been taught about what we do know and what we don’t.

 

[Wesrock]

No, God does not separate us into Catholics and Non Catholics, then send the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church.

That He does so is not the teaching of Mother Church.

You are trying to refute statements that nobody in this thread has made.

Not only is he arguing against arguments no one is making, he’s attempting to refute arguments we’ve repeatedly said we don’t hold.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Not only is he arguing against arguments no one is making, he’s attempting to refute arguments we’ve repeatedly said we don’t hold.

Quite the contrary, your distorting my statement and argument

 

[Usagi]

…What?

Do you really think the Church teaches that a baby can go to Hell? It is not possible to go to Hell unless you have committed a mortal sin and refused to repent of it. A one-year-old child is simply not capable of such a thing.

Well, strictly speaking, those who die “in original sin only” also go to Hell, and baptism is the normative means of getting rid of original sin. That’s why the whole question about baptized vs. unbaptized infants has plagued Christian thinkers in the first place.

That is not to say that any babies do go to Hell; I certainly tend to think otherwise. But very great saints have struggled with the question of whether they do or, if not, how they receive the necessary grace. The Church is very optimistic of late, because of an ever-growing appreciation of God’s mercy, but technically what happens to the innocently unbaptized has not specifically been revealed to us.

 

[Reepicheep]

Well, strictly speaking, those who die “in original sin only” also go to Hell, and baptism is the normative means of getting rid of original sin. That’s why the whole question about baptized vs. unbaptized infants has plagued Christian thinkers in the first place.

That is not to say that any babies do go to Hell; I certainly tend to think otherwise. But very great saints have struggled with the question of whether they do or, if not, how they receive the necessary grace. The Church is very optimistic of late, because of an ever-growing appreciation of God’s mercy, but technically what happens to the innocently unbaptized has not specifically been revealed to us.

…And therefore Mother Church does not teach that unbaptized babies go to Hell. Rather she tells us to trust in God’s mercy even though we’ve had no specific revelation on the matter.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

…And therefore Mother Church does not teach that unbaptized babies go to Hell. Rather she tells us to trust in God’s mercy even though we’ve had no specific revelation on the matter.

Exactly my point. We can guarantee that Catholic babies who die are in heaven because of baptism, but we dont know about the other babies. I think this has been a good discussion, and would like to thank my peers in faith for engaging in it with me but i will leave this thread.

 

[Lea101]

You have a very basic understanding of the wisdom of God. God doesnt seperate us into categories of Catholics and Non Catholics, then sends the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church. God is to complex and compassionate for that my dear. Let me ask you, Do you trust in the wisdom of God, or are you determined in damning those who are not apart of the church and not invincibly ignorant to hell?

I know you said you will leave this thread but I just want to say something

Many Christians make this mistake that God is either all mercy, or all just. He is both. And sometimes it is very difficult to understand that.

You are trying to refute statements that nobody really said here, so we are obviously confused.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

I know you said you will leave this thread but I just want to say something

Many Christians make this mistake that God is either all mercy, or all just. He is both. And sometimes it is very difficult to understand that.

You are trying to refute statements that nobody really said here, so we are obviously confused.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14413562#post14413562

Here is proof on another thread that i am not distorting your arguements.

 

[Bookcat]

What if the Athiest does not seek God but is still good like the good samaritan. Thats the issue here. Are we honestly suggesting that he goes to hell because he did not believe in God on his deathbed or did not have some life changing moment…

The persons acting as he did …and seeking goodness like he did can be a sign that he is seeking God.

The Church Teaches that yes it is possible for God to save them in a way known to God - but not seen by us!

We do not enter into life though by our “good deeds” by our virtues. But they can be a good sign of our openness to God* even if we do not know it*…that we are open to truth and goodness - open to God. God can work with this - God can reach us in ways others do not see.

Yes it is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church…but who still seek God…and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience …even if it is not an “explicit” seeking as I noted…

We just do not know all that God does “behind the scenes” as it were.

(Though one will find in Private Revelations such as to the Polish St. Faustina some interesting light on even in the very last moments of life -if the door is left open - God can still in his mercy save even those that seem beyond salvation…)

They do not though enter that state of salvation “by doing good”. They do not “earn it” - they cannot “earn” such initial justification. Such is by grace…by Jesus …

It will of course still be Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and Logos who saves them…(and Christians are to proclaim Christ…the Gospel to them!)

Whoever is saved in the end…will be saved by Jesus Christ…even if he has never heard of him or the Church …

God can reach them in ways we do not know or see…

Such yes can include atheists and others.

bottom line …we do not know and God does He wills our salvation…and knows what the person may have rejected (a “fake Jesus”) etc…

Jesus came to give us* true life* - he is the Logos and the Good Shepherd in search for the sheep …

 

[MarkInOregon]

Unfortunately, that is not what I am implying. I more then welcome those who turn away from christ, or those who have commited terrible deeds back into the church. And if not, I hope they find it in their heart to find salvation with God before they die. The thinking I strongly detest is that since Hitler was baptized, or that he may have found god at the last moment, he automatically has a higher chance of getting into heaven then a lifelong atheist who dies a atheist and lived a charitable life. I detest the fact that just because the atheist died a atheist it means he goes to hell. I remind you of the Good Samaritan. Lets put it this way, 10 Catholics who believe in God walk by a beaten man on the side of the road. They laugh at him, spit on him, and steal his only possesions. They say we are baptized, we are catholic, We can just confess and go to heaven. The Atheist takes the man to a hospital, pays for his medical bills, and make sure he will be on solid footing when he is released. I think that Jesus would judge the Atheist more kindly on judgement day. Any thoughts?

That you’re not listening to what other posters are saying because you keep throwing out this “just confess” line and that’s not what anyone has been saying. Do you deny that a person can be given the grace to truly repent? Do you not believe in true repentance?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Hello Mark,

I do deny that Hitlers “confession” was enough to get into heaven.

 

[Usagi]

Hello Mark,

I do deny that Hitlers “confession” was enough to get into heaven.

Is it the seeming simplicity of the sacrament you have a problem with, or do you believe that God would not have forgiven Hitler no matter what?

You jump from being very strict in the case of Hitler to accusing the rest of us of rigidity when it comes to the fates of non-Christians when we are taking the same position in both cases – one who truly repents and does not reject God’s offered grace will be saved (regardless of the extent of their previous sins and regardless of whether they consciously know it’s God they’re dealing with), those who cling to their sins and refuse God’s grace will be damned, and we cannot actually know in this life who falls into each category, though we can make educated guesses based on behavior.

We’re not saying that Hitler might possibly have been saved because he happened technically to have been a Catholic. We are maintaining the Christian teaching that any sinner, no matter how grave, can be forgiven and saved by the power of the Cross of Christ. Did Hitler repent? It seems highly unlikely. But if he did, sincerely, by the grace of God, then by that same grace his final destination will be Heaven. And those saints who were his victims in life will rejoice that God has won their brother’s soul from Hell. (Equally, they will rejoice in God’s justice, though I presume not directly for the loss and suffering of a fellow soul, if Hitler did not repent and is now in Hell.)

 

[Bookcat]

The persons acting as he did …and seeking goodness like he did can be a sign that he is seeking God.

The Church Teaches that yes it is possible for God to save them in a way known to God - but not seen by us!

We do not enter into life though by our “good deeds” by our virtues. But they can be a good sign of our openness to God* even if we do not know it*…that we are open to truth and goodness - open to God. God can work with this - God can reach us in ways others do not see.

Yes it is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church…but who still seek God…and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience …even if it is not an “explicit” seeking as I noted…

We just do not know all that God does “behind the scenes” as it were.

(Though one will find in Private Revelations such as to the Polish St. Faustina some interesting light on even in the very last moments of life -if the door is left open - God can still in his mercy save even those that seem beyond salvation…)

They do not though enter that state of salvation “by doing good”. They do not “earn it” - they cannot “earn” such initial justification. Such is by grace…by Jesus …

It will of course still be Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and Logos who saves them…(and Christians are to proclaim Christ…the Gospel to them!)

Whoever is saved in the end…will be saved by Jesus Christ…even if he has never heard of him or the Church …

God can reach them in ways we do not know or see…

Such yes can include atheists and others.

bottom line …we do not know and God does He wills our salvation…and knows what the person may have rejected (a “fake Jesus”) etc…

Jesus came to give us* true life* - he is the Logos and the Good Shepherd in search for the sheep …

Did you miss this one?

 

[Reepicheep]

Hello Mark,

I do deny that Hitlers “confession” was enough to get into heaven.

1. Why is the word confession in quotes?
2. Confession doesn’t get you into Heaven. Repentance gets you forgiven, and forgiveness lets you into Heaven.
3. How do you know what happened to Hitler’s soul?

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

1. Why is the word confession in quotes?
2. Confession doesn’t get you into Heaven. Repentance gets you forgiven, and forgiveness lets you into Heaven.
3. How do you know what happened to Hitler’s soul?

Ok lets take a look.

1. You claim Hitler repented and confessed, and is now in heaven because of it. I highly doubt his confession/repentance was sincere, but more in the fact that he feared the firey pits of hell. Just because he was washed of his original sin at baptism and may have repented does not give you a ticket through the gates.
2. I am aware, but it is the “official” way of having your sins absolved.
3. Hitler commited millions of deadly mortal sins, he died in a state of mortal sin. I know what happened to his soul based on his souless actions when he was alive on earth.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Is it the seeming simplicity of the sacrament you have a problem with, or do you believe that God would not have forgiven Hitler no matter what?

You jump from being very strict in the case of Hitler to accusing the rest of us of rigidity when it comes to the fates of non-Christians when we are taking the same position in both cases – one who truly repents and does not reject God’s offered grace will be saved (regardless of the extent of their previous sins and regardless of whether they consciously know it’s God they’re dealing with), those who cling to their sins and refuse God’s grace will be damned, and we cannot actually know in this life who falls into each category, though we can make educated guesses based on behavior.

We’re not saying that Hitler might possibly have been saved because he happened technically to have been a Catholic. We are maintaining the Christian teaching that any sinner, no matter how grave, can be forgiven and saved by the power of the Cross of Christ. Did Hitler repent? It seems highly unlikely. But if he did, sincerely, by the grace of God, then by that same grace his final destination will be Heaven. And those saints who were his victims in life will rejoice that God has won their brother’s soul from Hell. (Equally, they will rejoice in God’s justice, though I presume not directly for the loss and suffering of a fellow soul, if Hitler did not repent and is now in Hell.)

If hitler is in heaven after murdering millions, but my athiest neighbor is not because he did not have time to “repent” after dying immediately in a car crash. If hitler is in heaven because he repented and is catholic, but the ones he killed are not for not being “catholic” or repenting to jesus before they died (which most of his victims did not believe or did not have time to repent before being killed). That sort of rhetoric is absolutely wrong and agaisnt church teachings. I do not believe you are trying to be harsh, but you are inadvertantly failing to connect the dots in your prior arguements.

 

[Bookcat]

If hitler is in heaven after murdering millions, but my athiest neighbor is not because he did not have time to “repent” after dying immediately in a car crash. If hitler is in heaven because he repented and is catholic, but the ones he killed are not for not being “catholic” or repenting to jesus before they died (which most of his victims did not believe or did not have time to repent before being killed). That sort of rhetoric is absolutely wrong and agaisnt church teachings. I do not believe you are trying to be harsh, but you are inadvertantly failing to connect the dots in your prior arguements.

What on earth are you guys going on about?

Who says Hitler repented?

Who says your neighbor is in hell?

Did you look at the post I posted up above?