On the Number of Sins which God Pardons No More

[TheTrinitySaves]

We’ll all be held to account for our sins, but nobody gets to Heaven alone. A man sinner who knows his place before God and despises his sins is different than a nice man who sees no need for God, which is perhaps an even greater sin.

You seem to view Confession as some type of magic spell, something legalistic, as if it’s a get out of jail free card. It’s not. Penitents are called to repent. That isn’t simply going through the motions, but an interior transformation and conversion to Christ.

God desires to transform us, but we have to be open to that. He won’t force someone who rejects him. If a less charitable man is open to that transformation, even if he frequently falls into sin, God will scrub him clean, however long it takes. If a more charitable men dies in a cleaner state bit rejects God, God won’t necessarily decide to scrub him clean, but leave him as he is, dirt and all. This isn’t just a matter of being baptized, though, it’s a matter of cooperation with God. And if someone opens themselves up to that cooperation with God’s grace, God will work with them.

The men who walked by, laughed, and stole, in your example. Did they “just go to Confession?” Or did they truly realize how much they offended God and man and wished to repent and repair that relationship?

So what was the point of the Good Samaritan then? The Good Samaritan shows us that people we generally look down on or those who are naturally sinners can do good and will be rewarded by Jesus in heaven. lets assume The Athiest in my example will never change his beliefs on earth, but God will reward him in heaven.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

We’ll all be held to account for our sins, but nobody gets to Heaven alone. A man sinner who knows his place before God and despises his sins is different than a nice man who sees no need for God, which is perhaps an even greater sin.

You seem to view Confession as some type of magic spell, something legalistic, as if it’s a get out of jail free card. It’s not. Penitents are called to repent. That isn’t simply going through the motions, but an interior transformation and conversion to Christ.

God desires to transform us, but we have to be open to that. He won’t force someone who rejects him. If a less charitable man is open to that transformation, even if he frequently falls into sin, God will scrub him clean, however long it takes. If a more charitable men dies in a cleaner state bit rejects God, God won’t necessarily decide to scrub him clean, but leave him as he is, dirt and all. This isn’t just a matter of being baptized, though, it’s a matter of cooperation with God. And if someone opens themselves up to that cooperation with God’s grace, God will work with them.

The men who walked by, laughed, and stole, in your example. Did they “just go to Confession?” Or did they truly realize how much they offended God and man and wished to repent and repair that relationship?

You believe that in Gods eyes, killing 5 million Jews is worse then not believing in him, but still leaving a good and moral life?

 

[mVitus]

Here’s a good Ask An Apologist thread to at least give an introduction to how a non-Catholic may be saved.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143

 

[Wesrock]

I believe we amount to nothing without God. There is nothing we can do apart from God to merit salvation. Everyone falls short.

The Good Samaritan example was to define what it means to be a neighbor. The Samaritan was the neighbor, and we are called to think of them (within a first century Jewish context) as our neighbor, which would have been a ver unpopular opinion among some, and we are called to behave this way, as if everyone, even Samaritan’s gasp, are our neighbors.

Again, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking these Catholics who die having stolen, spit on, and laughed at an injured man go to Heaven even if they never actually repent their sins, as if they go to Heaven if they die as that same person who laughed and passed by and stole from that man in need. That’s not what is being said here. We are talking about a true turning away from those sins, repenting of them (as an inner act, not simply going through the motions) and conversion.

Being baptized Catholic doesn’t guarantee you salvation. Presumption is itself a sin that needs to be repented. You’re speaking as if there’s no re-orientation of the person towards God not needed, that we believe a person just needs to go through the motions in some giant, pre-planned scheme. That’s just absurd.

 

[TheLeastofThese]

St Paul killed early Christians. Yet he is a saint. Not for that, but it’s not like those things in his life never happened.

What is missing from your argument is an understanding of contrition. One cannot confess as if it were a magic incantation. It’s not a loophole. If a person who committed serious sins, even orchestrating the murder of millions of innocent people, experienced remorse and contrition and begged the Lord for forgiveness, that person could very well be saved.

Do I think the historical evidence available suggests that in Hitler’s case? No. But I can’t say it’s not possible. Only God knows our hearts.

Very well said!

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Here’s a good Ask An Apologist thread to at least give an introduction to how a non-Catholic may be saved.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143

Yes, And I still disagree. This still places a ridiculous amount of influence on baptist. This article is suggesting that if a 1 year old child dies without being baptized it somehow has a worse chance of getting into heaven then a child who was baptized. God would not be so cruel. What if the Athiest does not seek God but is still good like the good samaritan. Thats the issue here. Are we honestly suggesting that he goes to hell because he did not believe in God on his deathbed or did not have some life changing moment…

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

(I did not write this)

God: OK, let’s see. Bradski. Male. Married. Two kids. Australian. Hi. How are you?
Bradski: Good. I’m good. Well, apart from being dead.
God: Yes, sorry about that. Time was up, I’m afraid.
Bradski: No worries. Had to come sooner or later…
God: Yes, that’s a good attitude. Now, it says here you were an atheist.
Bradski: Well, not now obviously. But I was back then.
God: So did you reject me?
Bradski: Well no. I can hardly reject something in which I don’t believe.
God: Yes, yes. Good point. I can see the logic in that. OK. Good. But did you deny I existed?
Bradski: No. I used to tell anyone who listened that I simply thought that the arguments for your existence weren’t sufficient for me to believe in you.
God: Mmm. I’ve seen some of the arguments myself. Can’t say I blame you. I find it hard to believe I exist myself after reading some of the stuff that people post.
Bradski: So what happens now.
God: Well, there were a couple of things back in your younger day…
Bradski: Ahem…well we were all young once, weren’t we.
God: Not exactly, no. Not all of us. But look, I can’t see anything that would prevent me giving you the keys to Everlasting Life, so…I guess it’s welcome to heaven!
Bradski: Gee, that’s great. How wrong I was. Hey, is that my dog…?

---

 

[Wesrock]

Yes, And I still disagree. This still places a ridiculous amount of influence on baptist. This article is suggesting that if a 1 year old child dies without being baptized it somehow has a worse chance of getting into heaven then a child who was baptized. God would not be so cruel. What if the Athiest does not seek God but is still good like the good samaritan. Thats the issue here. Are we honestly suggesting that he goes to hell because he did not believe in God on his deathbed or did not have some life changing moment…

If he wasn’t invincible ignorant, and I’m not going to quantify that as that’s a separate discussion, yes. It’s quite possible. Only God is truly good, mind. The atheist is still a sinner, like everyone else, and like everyone else needs to seek union with God.

A Samaritan still believes in the God of Abraham and Moses. And again, I think you’he missing the parable. The intent was to advise on what it means to treat someone as a neighbor, but more specifically was also about exactly who is our neighbor (even Samaritans). The parable was a response to the question, “Who is my neighbor?” The answer boiled down to: (even) the Samaritan. We are all called to be like the Samaritan in this example, but let’s not forget the greatest commandment that Christ gave before he was even asked to advise who is a neighbor: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

If he wasn’t invincible ignorant, and I’m not going to quantify that as that’s a separate discussion, yes. It’s quite possible. Only God is truly good, mind. The atheist is still a sinner, like everyone else, and like everyone else needs to seek union with God.

A Samaritan still believes in the God of Abraham and Moses. And again, I think you’he missing the parable. The intent was to advise on what it means to treat someone as a neighbor, but more specifically was also about exactly who is our neighbor (even Samaritans). The parable was a response to the question, “Who is my neighbor?” The answer boiled down to: (even) the Samaritan. We are all called to be like the Samaritan in this example, but let’s not forget the greatest commandment that Christ gave before he was even asked to advise who is a neighbor: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

When the Athiest dies, and comes before god at his judgement he would obviously believe. Is it still to late at that time in your opinion?

 

[Usagi]

When the Athiest dies, and comes before god at his judgement he would obviously believe. Is it still to late at that time in your opinion?

I hope that it is not too late, and leave the rest to God.

Neither the Christian nor the atheist, though, is going to pile up his charitable deeds before God and insist that he has earned Heaven. With either one, it will be a matter of God’s grace working in him (possibly unbeknownst to him in the atheist’s case).

The possibility that a nonbeliever who responds to the promptings of grace may be saved has nothing to do with whether Hitler is beyond God’s mercy, however. We all agree that the evidence of his life points to his most likely being in Hell, but we are not permitted to say that God would not have forgiven even him in the unlikely event he sincerely repented of his evils.

 

[Lea101]

When the Athiest dies, and comes before god at his judgement he would obviously believe. Is it still to late at that time in your opinion?

You have a very basic understanding of salvation. Ask yourself if you believe the Church’s authority or if you are just holding onto your own opinions because it just seems more palatable to you.

Anyway, we cannot say if that atheist will be damned or not. Only God know his culpability (how much ignorance the person has, in really simple terms)

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

You have a very basic understanding of salvation. Ask yourself if you believe the Church’s authority or if you are just holding onto your own opinions because it just seems more palatable to you.

Anyway, we cannot say if that atheist will be damned or not. Only God know his culpability (how much ignorance the person has, in really simple terms)

You have a very basic understanding of the wisdom of God. God doesnt seperate us into categories of Catholics and Non Catholics, then sends the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church. God is to complex and compassionate for that my dear. Let me ask you, Do you trust in the wisdom of God, or are you determined in damning those who are not apart of the church and not invincibly ignorant to hell?

 

[fbl9]

You have a very basic understanding of the wisdom of God. God doesnt seperate us into categories of Catholics and Non Catholics, then sends the Non Catholics to Hell for not believing in the church. God is to complex and compassionate for that my dear. Let me ask you, Do you trust in the wisdom of God, or are you determined in damning those who are not apart of the church and not invincibly ignorant to hell?

We know one is not received into heaven without wanting to be there. One can not want heaven and not God as in the case of an atheist.

Personally i fear for the souls of the rabid anti-catholic Christians. Their minds and hearts are set in this life and as per Church teaching our fates are set in this life. Upon learning the truth that they are against the bride of Christ would they believe or would they say get away from me?

 

[LilyM]

Unfortunately, that is not what I am implying. I more then welcome those who turn away from christ, or those who have commited terrible deeds back into the church. And if not, I hope they find it in their heart to find salvation with God before they die. The thinking I strongly detest is that since Hitler was baptized, or that he may have found god at the last moment, he automatically has a higher chance of getting into heaven then a lifelong atheist who dies a atheist and lived a charitable life. I detest the fact that just because the atheist died a atheist it means he goes to hell. I remind you of the Good Samaritan. Lets put it this way, 10 Catholics who believe in God walk by a beaten man on the side of the road. They laugh at him, spit on him, and steal his only possesions. They say we are baptized, we are catholic, We can just confess and go to heaven. The Atheist takes the man to a hospital, pays for his medical bills, and make sure he will be on solid footing when he is released. I think that Jesus would judge the Atheist more kindly on judgement day. Any thoughts?

Baptism isn’t a get out of jail free card, neither is confession if insincere, both of which points have been made many times. The only Catholics who think as you describe are badly misguided and very poorly educated in their faith and need prayer and counsel.

As for Hitler being baptised, well we do believe that in baptism we are given a special grace not given to those who aren’t baptised, like the servant who was given a talent of gold. Otherwise there would be no point in baptism at all.

It was, and is, up to each baptised individual whether they put that grace of baptism to good use and profit from it or, like the bad servant, bury it under a rock so that it achieves nothing.

None of which is to say atheists cannot, possibly, be given extraordinary graces and achieve salvation. However, I do not think good works would gain salvation in and of themselves, if done entirely without reference to God. Animals have been known to do good for human beings in various ways (such as pets saving their owners’ lives), yet we don’t consider their doing so as rendering them worthy of salvation.

 

[Bookcat]

suggesting that if a 1 year old child dies without being baptized it somehow has a worse chance of getting into heaven then a child who was baptized.

We know the reality of baptism. For that has been revealed to us.

We do not know the reality of those infants/little children who die without baptism. That has not been revealed.

The Church teaches us that we are to entrust the to the mercy of God.

Catechism:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1261

 

[Bookcat]

What if the Athiest does not seek God but is still good like the good samaritan. Thats the issue here. Are we honestly suggesting that he goes to hell because he did not believe in God on his deathbed or did not have some life changing moment…

The persons acting as he did …and seeking goodness like he did can be a sign that he is seeking God.

The Church Teaches that yes it is possible for God to save them in a way known to God - but not seen by us!

We do not enter into life though by our “good deeds” by our virtues. But they can be a good sign of our openness to God* even if we do not know it*…that we are open to truth and goodness - open to God. God can work with this - God can reach us in ways others do not see.

Yes it is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church…but who still seek God…and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience …even if it is not an “explicit” seeking as I noted…

We just do not know all that God does “behind the scenes” as it were.

(Though one will find in Private Revelations such as to the Polish St. Faustina some interesting light on even in the very last moments of life -if the door is left open - God can still in his mercy save even those that seem beyond salvation…)

They do not though enter that state of salvation “by doing good”. They do not “earn it” - they cannot “earn” such initial justification. Such is by grace…by Jesus …

It will of course still be Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and Logos who saves them…(and Christians are to proclaim Christ…the Gospel to them!)

Whoever is saved in the end…will be saved by Jesus Christ…even if he has never heard of him or the Church …

God can reach them in ways we do not know or see…

Such yes can include atheists and others.

bottom line …we do not know and God does He wills our salvation…and knows what the person may have rejected (a “fake Jesus”) etc…

Jesus came to give us* true life* - he is the Logos and the Good Shepherd in search for the sheep …

 

[Reepicheep]

Reepicheep

“We have the false [Protestant] principle that pretty much everybody is going to Heaven. You don’t have to do anything in particular except make a vague act of faith at some point in your life. But those of us who know, are aware that salvation is difficult. The road is narrow.”

• Rev. Patrick Perez

Patrick Perez speaks the truth. The road is narrow. That does not mean the road is ever forbidden, at least not while we remain in this life.

There is a point on a humans life on earth where a human so evil has reached the point of no return. Hitler ignored and enjoyed the cries of death from millions of people, Sure when Hitler was about to enter the gates of Hell, he may have cried out for Gods mercy knowing the terrible fire that awaited him, but to no avail. God ignored him like he ignored the millions of people who died under his watch.

The point of no return can come; but if it does it’s because the sinner has ceased to seek forgiveness–perhaps even ceased to be capable of seeing forgiveness-- not because God has run out of patience.

I do not say that Hitler was saved. I say that God is capable of saving even so evil a man as Hitler, if Hitler was willing to repent.

 

[Reepicheep]

You took this quote out of context, by your logic you can commit all the horrendous sins you want and at the end ask for forgiveness and find a priest for confession knowing that if you confess you’ll make it to heaven.

How many people know what day they will die?
Habits get harder to break the longer they go on. The habit of sin is no exception.
Planning to ‘sin all you want’ and then confess at the last minute is itself a grievous sin. God is not mocked.
None of this proves your point. God is not so limited as we are. Numbers do not bar Him from granting mercy when we repent.

 

[Reepicheep]

(Snipped) The thinking I strongly detest is that since Hitler was baptized, or that he may have found god at the last moment, he automatically has a higher chance of getting into heaven then a lifelong atheist who dies a atheist and lived a charitable life.

This is not the teaching of Mother Church.

I detest the fact that just because the atheist died a atheist it means he goes to hell.

This is not the teaching of Mother Church.

I remind you of the Good Samaritan. Lets put it this way, 10 Catholics who believe in God walk by a beaten man on the side of the road. They laugh at him, spit on him, and steal his only possesions. They say we are baptized, we are catholic, We can just confess and go to heaven.

This is not the teaching of Mother Church.

The Atheist takes the man to a hospital, pays for his medical bills, and make sure he will be on solid footing when he is released. I think that Jesus would judge the Atheist more kindly on judgement day. Any thoughts?

The Gospel According to Matthew

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

This is the teaching of Mother Church.

 

[Reepicheep]

So what was the point of the Good Samaritan then? The Good Samaritan shows us that people we generally look down on or those who are naturally sinners can do good and will be rewarded by Jesus in heaven. lets assume The Athiest in my example will never change his beliefs on earth, but God will reward him in heaven.

The Gospel According to Matthew
‘For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’