On this rock I build My Church

[truthlovingorthodox]

Hi setarcos

I was responding to anyone who wants to tear the faith of others. I don’t know if any in this discussion have that intention. And some may do so not so because of blindness thinking they offer God service but if the blind lead the blind they will both not make it to heaven. I never thought of you at all.
I am also blind but I try to see better.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

Jesus said it shall not be among you that you should exercise authority over each other.
We should esteem them highly in love for their works sake but they are not allowed to give orders and condemn those who don’t follow them just teach the Lords way

The disciples needed the Holy Spirit to be able to know God the Father through His Son. He would remind them of His words and He helps us understand the bible. Before the Holy Spirit came people could only connect with God through words and commandments of prophets. Prophets spoke to God but did they have the Holy Spirit ? The spirit of God I believe would speak to them but it would not dwell in them. They made their own prayers but now the Holy Spirit prays with us

 

[jcrichton]

Jesus said it shall not be among you that you should exercise authority over each other.
We should esteem them highly in love for their works sake but they are not allowed to give orders and condemn those who don’t follow them just teach the Lords way

The disciples needed the Holy Spirit to be able to know God the Father through His Son. He would remind them of His words and He helps us understand the bible. Before the Holy Spirit came people could only connect with God through words and commandments of prophets. Prophets spoke to God but did they have the Holy Spirit ? The spirit of God I believe would speak to them but it would not dwell in them. They made their own prayers but now the Holy Spirit prays with us

Did you follow what took place during Pentecost?

There were thousands of religious people (the call to the Temple brought them in from all nations) but only 200 Received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost–those that were with the Twelve.

They were mocked by those in the crowd and St. Peter rose up and spoke to them settling the matter. At the end they asked what they had to do… it was not a participation of all the “believers” all over Jerusalem.

Then came the gatherings with the Twelve… this continued as the Church grew–then there were norms (Doctrines and Practices); during one salient episode two people died at the foot of St. Peter… it is not about a group/vote thing. It is about God’s Delegation and Salvific Plan:

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12)

Jesus did not set the 72 in the Office of Apostles–Jesus chose Twelve, Eleven, Twelve, Twelve + One; then the Holy Spirit Began His Work with the Church: the Body of Christ; He Unfolded the Truth with Doctrine and Practices that Jesus Followers would engage.

Groupon is not a qualifier!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

Which Orthodox and Protestant are invincibly ignorant ?

If you say Orthodox and Protestants who do not know the Catholic Church is true because of not searching enough are not saved even if they would convert if they absolutely know if they search then there is my problem with the Catholic Church. Non Christians are not saved because they know Jesus is Lord but do not convert. That is if they ever asked God they would know. They may not know for certain there is a hell but they know Jesus is the truth
So there you know why I do not accept the Catholic Church. So you can not say I hate the Catholic Church because I don’t know what it teaches. I do not hate it still. I just don’t accept it. Of course I am forced to hate them for rejecting us

Basically the Catholic Church seems to teach just as stupidly as the Orthodox Church that the whole other denomination is not saved just because they didn’t seek enough the truth to be saved to neglect the commandments of God just for the sake of tradition

But even Jesus said you have to seek Him.
He said all who ask receive
But I hope He doesn’t tell us to accept His words like the church does but to test Him and His words. Also He said in revelations He Himself knocks on the door of the heart and draws them to Him meaning His word to ask Him

By all means keep your sacraments and traditions but do not judge other Christians.
I mean we have to not cause divisions there are people in church who need you and if confession etc may help you have no excuse not to use them. Also I did not disagree there is a church or could be but every Christian is a member of Christ who loves the Lord Jesus in sincerity. There may however be some who have no excuse to be outside the church but I don’t know only God knows

 

[jcrichton]

But even Jesus said you have to seek Him.
He said all who ask receive
But I hope He doesn’t tell us to accept His words like the church does but to test Him and His words. Also He said in revelations He Himself knocks on the door of the heart and draws them to Him meaning His word to ask Him

Jesus also said that who does not gathers with Him scatters.

He Commands that we be one–whoever scatters must not be following Jesus or was Jesus only intending “like minds” and “symbolic union?”

It is not about know Scriptures either; St. James warns, ‘you believe there’s a God? You do well; yet, demons also believe and tremble!’ (paraphrased)

Jesus also cautioned that not all who Call Him Lord will enter into the Kingdom… this is so poignant because He actually rejects those who claim Him and who seem to be “right on target” spiritually as ‘workers of iniquity.’

We cannot dismantle Jesus’ Church and call on Him to lead us to the Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I have perhaps no problem joining the Catholic Church if you do not judge Protestants and that Catholics are allowed to think differently than the pope or Vatican. We give them the right to teach what they think is the right but it does not mean we have to think it is right but we want it to go back to the truth. If the Catholic Church Denys Jesus bought them that is they did not need to go through Jesus to heaven but their works could bring them it is wrong. I never hear the church warning unbelievers they may not be invincibly ignorant but it tries to please them

 

[jcrichton]

We give them the right to teach what they think is the right but it does not mean we have to think it is right but we want it to go back to the truth. If the Catholic Church Denys Jesus bought them that is they did not need to go through Jesus to heaven but their works could bring them it is wrong

Your major conflict is misunderstanding.

The Church does not teach that works are able to purchase Heaven. As far as I know the Catholic Church is the only true Teacher because of Apostolic Succession (which includes the Oral and Written Traditions).

The Catholic Church Teaches that none are saved or damned because works or lack of works; she also Teaches that none can make Judgment on who is Saved or Damned–there is only One Who is Judge.

She Teaches that only in Jesus are we Saved and that Salvation is not something that we can hold as “given” but that, in Christ, are Salvation is accomplished.

You misunderstand the Church’s stand on Salvation–while she does not teach the fear of hell (to trick people into seeking God), she Teaches that God’s Mercy an Justice abounds for all, even non-Believers.

Yet, this is nothing new. St. Paul began the whole Unfolding of it way back when:

5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: 15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Romans 2–specifically vv 14-16)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I shall respond to you hopefully soon as I am busy with my work.
I will say just for now Paul did use the terror of the Lord to persuade men. Yes it is wrong to try to scare people because you want praise from men but Paul was convinced of the terror of the Lord so he made it important to persuade men about Jesus not just scare them but persuade them.
It helps some and is harmful for some as Judes epistle says some save with fear pulling them out of the fire.
Yes God is absolutely just and you can be sure that on the day of judgement everyone who did not believe will find that he can not enter life and will be based on fair judgements according to His words. Jesus did not come to condemn but to persuade He said He will judge them by His words.
As John the baptist said he who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him. But only God knows if a person could be excused for not believing if he did not get a proper chance. All could not be excused. Or rather he will not be excused if he does not believe but only God knows if on his last breath he called out for the truth and he can be saved as those of the eleventh hour if he is worthy which they are more likely to be then sinners without excuse. But those without excuse need to have got a pure heart before death. I do not know for the non christian if he even has time with that… the least labor God will accept. Those called earlier with no excuses to not come more is expected of them by the end of their life

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

All the sinners that can not go to heaven without repentance. Do you want to condemn them for not joining the catholic church? or do you want to excuse them because protestants taught fear?
you just want protestants to go to hell. The bible clearly says the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobedience they can not escape it. The unrighteous can not enter the kingdom unless they repent

 

[jcrichton]

All the sinners that can not go to heaven without repentance. Do you want to condemn them for not joining the catholic church? or do you want to excuse them because protestants taught fear?
you just want protestants to go to hell. The bible clearly says the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobedience you can not escape it. The unrighteous can not enter the kingdom unless they repent

Yet, these are separate issues.

There’s only one Name given in Heaven and earth by which all are Saved.

Yet, Salvation is not something that man can achieve on his own. It is through God’s Call and Gift that we are Saved.

The Church Teaches that we are all Called to Salvation. And while in the past there was this confused understanding of who is Saved, the Church has made it quite clear that only those in the Body of Christ are Saved.

However, this membership is not one that men can determine/exclude from one another; Jesus made this quite clear that even those who operate under the conviction that they are “Saved” could easily end up at the end of His Wrath (St. Matthew 7:21-23).

Now, the Church, as Christ, Calls to the Unity of the Body–on this there’s no mistake; we are Called to Love and Unity as the proof that we are in Fellowship with Christ and that the Father Sent Him to Save the world (St. John 3:14-20).

Is the Church soft on preaching damnation?

Yes.

Is fear of hell the right path to save humanity?

Not if conversion remains superficial and the only understanding that people have of God (Wrath).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[theCardinalbird]

All the sinners that can not go to heaven without repentance. Do you want to condemn them for not joining the catholic church? or do you want to excuse them because protestants taught fear?
you just want protestants to go to hell. The bible clearly says the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobedience they can not escape it. The unrighteous can not enter the kingdom unless they repent

Here’s an article on salvation

No Salvation Outside the Church | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I read that article a long time ago. I don’t agree on much of it. In order to attract people I wish some would stop teaching heresy of universal salvation. I contend against mighty strongholds in the church. I am not strong enough or chosen by God to tear down. We have to despise the heresy which completely destroys all that christ came for. The punishment of the wicked is everlasting as the life of the righteous the bible says in matthew 25. We can’t afford to entertain the idea to preach it as a possibility.

The cowardly and unbelieving have their part in the lake of fire…universal salvation is a huge lie from satan… to make people think they can sin and they will suffer no eternal consequences. St Paul says do not be deceived the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. The bible also explains whoever receives the mark of the beast which is everyone not written in the book of life their torment ascends before God forever. They have no rest day or night… just like the wicked which God says there is no peace for the wicked. Jude says their fate is like the devil who is in everlasting chains reserved for the blackness of darkness forever

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are those who [a]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Revelation 22:18-19
A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, [j]God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God[k] shall take away his part from the [l]Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I kind of agree with this

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

But then the catechism says

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

I agree but why is the person who seeks more condemned than the person who does not seek?
How does that person know unless he seeks? I agree if he knows without seeking

 

[SeriousQuestion]

They both are seeking, but one of them has been given more grace and light and more is required on their part because of it. In the second example the person rejects what they have sought after.

 

[theCardinalbird]

I agree but why is the person who seeks more condemned than the person who does not seek?
How does that person know unless he seeks? I agree if he knows without seeking

As @SeriousQuestion said. They both are seeking. But here is the difference:

Think about it. The person who saw what Christ’s Church was decided to reject it, knowing full well what the Church is. This person rejects the very Church Christ built on Peter despite knowing what it is.

The person who didn’t find the Church has no knowledge of what the Church is, is not held accountable for knowing where salvation is found because he/she is has no knowledge.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

Ok thanks

 

[margaret42]

The Roman catholic church

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I decided I don’t agree with the church so I don’t belong. You said I can’t convert anyway even if I believe St. Peter could be the rock but don’t believe in Vatican 2. Also if I am not allowed to accept Protestants I won’t accept it
I decided Protestants need me more than you do since you are apostolic and no one should sin because of me. As long as you attack Protestants I believe I can not be part of your body to help you because I am hurting others also. I will attend my church first of all to be convinced and I may also attend your church and see a priest but I will never change my views until I am convinced because I believe judging Protestants is wrong and putting a stumbling block. Unless I am sure we are not harming them. The gospel according to all true Christians is not a watered down gospel one must still be wise virgins and not bury ones talents.
I believe if we condemn Protestants we are hindering the gospel of Jesus. I said you may be held responsible but I change my mind and edit it to you just put a stumbling block before non Christians

You have to leave it to God to convert them if you believe He doesn’t accept them. It is not easy for them to believe at first they need to see a priest for forgiveness unless they are convinced by God since how would they believe in a God who would put a stumbling block from them to come to Him?

 

[jcrichton]

Unless I am sure we are not harming them.

Since what you are suffering from is “interpretational bias” you will never come to the conclusion that Christ Founded One Body not a multitude of bodies and that “all roads lead to God” is the incorrect modus operandi.

However, I can begin to assist your quest by helping you understand that your vocabulary needs to improve in order for you to understand that: a) the Catholic Church does not attack others by holding to Apostolic Teachings, and b) exposing the myth that splintering the Body of Christ is Holy Spirit Inspired is not judgment nor an assault.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[theCardinalbird]

Also if I am not allowed to accept Protestants I won’t accept it

But what do you mean by accepting? Are you saying the Church isn’t justified in pointing out doctrines that are wrong and are in error (i.e. Sola fide and sola scriptura?). Are we to accept what they believe that runs counter to our faith?

As long as you attack Protestants I believe I can not be part of your body to help you because I am hurting others also.

What do you mean by attack? Are you saying the Church is wrong in defending the Apostolic Faith? We cannot accept Protestant doctrines because they are in error. The Church does not hate those people who are part of the Protestant denominations. We simply seek unity under the Apostolic teachings that the reformers abandoned all those years ago.

I believe if we condemn Protestants we are hindering the gospel of Jesus.

I believe that by showing the truth about unorthodox doctrines (Protestantism is what I speak of, not the individual Protestant human beings) created by Wolves in sheep clothing, we may save the souls of those who have not witnessed the truth. Obviously compassion is needed in these situations as not being compassionate leads to closed ears. If we profess the truth and they don’t like it what are we to do? Tell them that they can believe what they want despite it being in error?

Now some questions:

If we bring Protestants back to the Church how will they be in communion with the Church if they reject it’s teachings? It doesn’t make sense to be compassionate without the truth. If exposing the lies that they believed to be true puts a stumbling block, then I don’t know what to say.

Also to note the reformers wounded the mystical body of Christ through schism. Dividing this body hurts Christ and it would hurt even more if we subscribed to the Protestant beliefs that counter Apostolic teachings.

Also the Bible itself points to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and we need to protect that. We cannot say that all Churches are acceptable just the way they are when they all contradict each other and therefore don’t act as one.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

You become more compassionate in your response because you know what I say is the truth
There is no perfect church. The church was united before but God now accepts all churches hoping for complete unity in the future. The Apostles were able to keep the truth with their authority from God. Therefore God will work for full unity in the future with signs just as He did at Pentecost before
I believe every believer is Peter if he has relation with God he knows all things necessary for his salvation and to keep the commandments of God. Even if your teachings are true on invincible ignorance etc Protestants can have believe it too but unfortunately I do not think it is true. Even if it was true you should accept Protestants and that they will go to heaven even if you think they are not completely correct. But God accepts you fanatical people if you have relation with Christ. You should wish Protestants to be saved and not be smug against them

Jesus said whoever does not take up his cross and follow Him is unworthy of Him and therefore there is no universal salvation. If God makes an invitation like the parable of the great supper people must come as Jesus said to come you need a wedding garment that is identify with Him
and also be holy being washed in the blood of the lamb. God makes the rules if they are not fair He can break them but there is no universal salvation