On this rock I build My Church

[jcrichton]

We would be stronger witness if we do not fight one another and as I said they may all be saved because we are not strong witness now for our sake.

I fully concur!

Christ’s Commands this: ‘be one, in Me, as I and the Father are One.’

This unity is not of superficial and esthetic components; the unity is in Christ. Christians must put their ego aside and embrace Christ. As Christ Himself Taught, ‘a house divided will fall.’

While the Church can never fall because she is the Body of Christ, she would be in a better position to Teach and Preach if she were to stand united as a Witness to Christ: ‘be one and love one another, so that the world may believe that the Father has Sent Me.’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s my name.

So, no I’m not inferring that I’m God’s sent/messenger.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No.

Here’s how it does not work: ‘Pope Angel, claims that Jesus, our savior had a savior; so we are now to follow our Savior’s savior.’

Days later (or minutes) ‘Pope Angel, has determined that we are not to follow our Savior’s savior; we are to follow only our Savior.’

Pope Angel cannot come up with Teachings that go against Revelation (Oral and Written); Pope Angel can only uphold previous Church’s Teachings as Church’s Teachings.

One particular example is the Biblical Canon. I took decades to organize and select the Canon. No Papal writings have been inserted into Scriptures and claimed Scriptures. No Papal writings have been claimed to replace Apostolic Teaching (Oral and Written).

So when there’s an issue of Faith (as a heresy that needs to be fought or a Doctrine that needs to be settled) the Pope, with the school of Bishops address, clarify, and solidify the Teaching/Doctrine (as in the Incarnation of the Word and the Holy Trinity).

Changes? Well, the Church is organic; she grows as the Holy Spirit Unfolds the Fullness of Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Peter is everyman.

While this is a great type; we cannot limit St. Peter to what we figure (or configure) him to be.

It is difficult to make a comparison between St. Peter and us as he was actually the only Disciple running in fear of his life as he attempted to remain near Jesus. While everyone abandoned Jesus, only St. Peter was bold enough to tread over the pitfall: get discovered, you may lose your life.

We, on the other hand, just simply choose ourselves rather than Christ over the most insignificant of quandaries.

But, yes, St. Peter’s limitations does offer us hope–if he could do it…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Actually, not!

Icebergs turn to water in spite of any witnessing.

Lightening and thunder strike, regardless of the ear/eye witnesses.

Plants grow and flower even when man does not even know they exist.

So when Christ Delegates–He Delegates regardless of our understanding of His Way.

The solidity upon which Jesus Church is to be built must of necessity be infallible. Peter is fallible.

That’s the misconception.

The Church as Christ’s Body does not depend upon man’s infallibility. Man’s fallibility does not limit the Holy Spirit’s Infallibility in Unfolding the Truth. It is the reason why the Church is the Deposit of Truth: Jesus Resides in her.

Man does not make the Church the Pillar of Truth, Christ does. The Holy Spirit Unfolds this Truth time and again, using fallible men to bring about the Unfolding of the Truth. (ie: Yahweh God is the One True God existing Eternally as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.)

Maran atha!

Angel

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have not said anything to the contrary.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[setarcos]

Pope Angel cannot come up with Teachings that go against Revelation (Oral and Written); Pope Angel can only uphold previous Church’s Teachings as Church’s Teachings.

Except, if we correlate your example to reality, Pope Angel did come up with teachings which go against Revelation of which later on Pope Angel felt compelled to apologize for.

One particular example is the Biblical Canon. I took decades to organize and select the Canon. No Papal writings have been inserted into Scriptures and claimed Scriptures. No Papal writings have been claimed to replace Apostolic Teaching (Oral and Written).

Except most of the Biblical Canon was already considered sacred texts and were in use as teachings before Pope Angel decided to officially say yes this is the cannon of sacred text. We will never know how it would have went over if Pope Angel solely decided to include a text not already considered sacred previously as canonical since there isn’t any texts in the cannon solely declared sacred by Pope Angel.

No Papal writings have been inserted into Scriptures and claimed Scriptures. No Papal writings have been claimed to replace Apostolic Teaching (Oral and Written).

That is because you are dealing with two different sources of “Revelatory” information. The one is the primary source of truth, open to all who places their faith in Christ and the holy spirits guidance and the other is individual revelation concerning the primary revelatory truth. When the second one errs in its understanding we have things like the inquisition which the church institutionalized according to its revelations on Jesus’s Revelations. Yet this was possible precisely because the Church equated the authority of revelatory interpretation with Jesus’s Revelations without question.

 

[setarcos]

So when there’s an issue of Faith (as a heresy that needs to be fought or a Doctrine that needs to be settled) the Pope, with the school of Bishops address, clarify, and solidify the Teaching/Doctrine (as in the Incarnation of the Word and the Holy Trinity).

Except its not quite that cut and dried. Should you read some of the eyewitness testimonies of those that have partaken in these discussions on issues of faith (councils) for instance you will see that there is rarely a universal consensus of agreement. There is a vote and majority takes the day. In some cases the Pope has enforced his opinion without agreement, in all cases its indistinguishable from a typical worldly get together by the powers that be in order to enforce some law through political maneuvering and manipulation. I’m afraid the Holy Spirit rarely is able to infuse everyone with truth even in the most elite. Its never “settled”. There’s always disgruntled disagreement lurking behind the scenes in the ones who’s vote lost out. Most of your heresies were never settled because they were never reasoned to conclusion such as Aryanism. They were simply settled by enforcement, also indistinguishable from worldly affairs with little to do with getting to the truth of the matter.

(as in the Incarnation of the Word and the Holy Trinity).

I challenge you to show me how clear and solid the magisterium’s teachings are on these conceptions.

Changes? Well, the Church is organic; she grows as the Holy Spirit Unfolds the Fullness of Truth!

What do you mean by this? The Church follows the history laid out for her? Revelation ceased with Christ. What more is there to unfold? The tracks have been laid…we either follow the tracks or get derailed. If we haven’t the fullness of understanding what is required of us from Jesus then how can we follow Jesus’s institutions with understanding? Even in faith we understand what we have faith in do we not? This evolving faith meme is simply the magisteriums way of smoothing over errors made by defining it as growth in understanding. Sad. Just admit mistakes and move on to betterment.

 

[setarcos]

While this is a great type; we cannot limit St. Peter to what we figure (or configure) him to be.

I am not limiting Peter by limiting the discussion to the actions we know Peter has taken. Scripture itself is limiting what we need to know about Peter as a “type”.

It is difficult to make a comparison between St. Peter and us as he was actually the only Disciple running in fear of his life as he attempted to remain near Jesus. While everyone abandoned Jesus, only St. Peter was bold enough to tread over the pitfall: get discovered, you may lose your life.

Who among us at some point in their lives, if they truly seek Jesus, hasn’t ran in fear while at the same time attempting to remain true to Jesus? St. Peter on the contrary at the apex of importance in declaring obedience to Christ…abandoned him. This was so important a teaching moment for all mankind that scripture returns to it several times. Any sane man is afraid to lose his life, though Jesus demands it of us.

We, on the other hand, just simply choose ourselves rather than Christ over the most insignificant of quandaries.

Here your unreasonably pressing Characteristics we have which Peter doesn’t. You cannot declare as truth what hasn’t been shown, only what has been shown. I say again…St. Peter is everyman and every saved souls spiritual evolution.

 

[setarcos]

Actually, not!

Icebergs turn to water in spite of any witnessing.

And how can you possibly know this? You’re definitely not up to date on modern scientific theory. The melting iceberg is in a fluctuating state of continuously evolving probability and until observed that probability wave doesn’t collapse into a reality. For all we know an unobserved iceberg might melt into a puddle of chocolate fudge. The only thing keeping the iceberg icy and the melted iceberg watery is the eternal observation of Gods sustaining will. The same goes for the rest of it. The universe demands observation! It holds its existence in being observed. The universe IS observation!

So when Christ Delegates–He Delegates regardless of our understanding of His Way.

I agree. We don’t need to nor often aren’t able to understand Christ’s ways. However in keeping with observation, if something is to be delegated that we are to know was delegated we must be able to observe what was delegated and how the delegation took place in that we know what it means to be delegated.

That’s the misconception.

The Church as Christ’s Body does not depend upon man’s infallibility. Man’s fallibility does not limit the Holy Spirit’s Infallibility in Unfolding the Truth. It is the reason why the Church is the Deposit of Truth: Jesus Resides in her.

Misconception indeed. First man is not infallible. So how could the “Church” depend on it? Second the Church IS the totality of the followers of Christ. The Church hasn’t been perfected yet. It is moving towards perfection in salvation upon Christ’s return. Third the revelations of Jesus (his deposit of truth) is not the Church. They are two separate things. Jesus can be said to reside in the Church because he resides in each of her defining members.

Man does not make the Church the Pillar of Truth, Christ does

Again…the Church is not equal to Jesus’s Pillars of truth. They are two separate things. The “bride” attempts to be faithful to Gods truth. The “bride” or Church is not the truth it is attempting to be faithful to.

The Holy Spirit Unfolds this Truth time and again, using fallible men to bring about the Unfolding of the Truth. (ie: Yahweh God is the One True God existing Eternally as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.)

What is this unfolding? If we don’t yet have understanding of what the truth God wants us to follow is then what is it we are following and how is it we can follow in sincerity if we have no understanding?

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

Some people’s intent is to destroy people’s faith and stumble them. I don’t talk of those who want to be open to the truth and don’t judge until they can help people and righteous enough to admit they may not know the truth. If people have no doubts about their beliefs atleast they should say I have no doubt in what I believe but I could be wrong.You can speak without pronouncing sure judgements and therefore being guilty of judging because only Jesus can judge who has or is keeping His word and who deserves pardon. One should ask for God to give them evidence to share with others. I don’t mean necessarily intellectual but I mean for God to open others eyes to see the truth and show it to them somehow

Every person has always been accepted who believed in Christ and repented. Paul says grace and peace to all who calll upon the name of our Lord Jesus.

Only when God revealed to them somehow they needed to join the church they had to join the church. I also try to describe this as being witnessed with power

The truth is Christians have to strive to be dead to sin by their faith in Christ. The apostles are not the only teachers. God distributes gifts to the whole Christian body

Ephesians 2:11-16
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the
trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Ephesians 2:14-18
Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

If I reply I will not argue this

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

You are free to debate respectfully
Even the non Christian we should not tell them off but aim to help and guide them lovingly if they need it and not if they are hostile to you which is why Jesus said take the plank out of your eye to see clearly to remove the speck out of another’s. You can only sow a seed and keep sowing if it is of God people will be convicted but if it is not of God people will not be convicted.
That seems to be close if not the same as the distinction between proselyting and preaching Pope Francis talks about.

 

[setarcos]

Greetings truthlovingorthodox,
I’m uncertain, are you responding to what I have written or responding to a general audience? I apologize for my ignorance, what is it you will not argue, I like to say discuss, if you reply?
Do you disagree with what I have written? I do hope jcrichton is not done with this discussion as I’m sure we can benefit further from his incites and opinions.

 

[jcrichton]

Except, if we correlate your example to reality, Pope Angel did come up with teachings which go against Revelation of which later on Pope Angel felt compelled to apologize for.

These teachings were made as Doctrinal Teachings? (Please demonstrate with the example.)

Except most of the Biblical Canon was already considered sacred texts and were in use as teachings before Pope Angel decided to officially say yes this is the cannon of sacred text. We will never know how it would have went over if Pope Angel solely decided to include a text not already considered sacred previously as canonical since there isn’t any texts in the cannon solely declared sacred by Pope Angel.

You’ve just made the argument!

The Pope, as the head of the Church, must abide by the Church’s History when making any conclusive statements–and specially when making pronouncements of Faith. The Pope cannot be “guided” by the Holy Spirit to branch out from the Church!

When the second one errs in its understanding we have things like the inquisition which the church institutionalized according to its revelations on Jesus’s Revelations. Yet this was possible precisely because the Church equated the authority of revelatory interpretation with Jesus’s Revelations without question.

How sad that you are still caught up in Church bashing. Have you compared what took place in the world at the time of the “inquisition/s?”

It was not a “Church” thing. It was a global thing. The Church was the only source of balance in a time where your neighbor, wanting your spouse, kids, house, land, animals, only had to accuse you of treason against the state or heresy–soon you and the local officials would be in business–something that still worked well against the Catholic Church in the “new world.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

They were simply settled by enforcement, also indistinguishable from worldly affairs with little to do with getting to the truth of the matter.

So you believe that Arianism was defeated not because the Truth that God has Revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but because they were voted out or exterminated?

You are correct in pointing out that not everything flows in a spiritual manner; that man continues to puff themselves up against God; yet, basically, you suggest that God has not been able to manage anything in the world past Jesus’ Missionary Ministry since man, when taking the reigns of the Church, have have clashes from the day of Pentecost till today

I challenge you to show me how clear and solid the magisterium’s teachings are on these conceptions.

Really, the Church’s magisterium teaches that one can believe in the Incarnation of the Word or not and that the Holy Trinity is just one way of accepting God’s Revelation about Himself but that everyone is free to not believe in the Holy Trinity, while claiming to be a Cristian?

Revelation ceased with Christ. What more is there to unfold? The tracks have been laid…we either follow the tracks or get derailed.

Wow, you don’t care much about the little details do you? It was Jesus Himself that told the Eleven that they could not understand all that He had Brought to them; that He would Send the other Paraclete, from the Father’s side, to Guide them to the Fullness of Truth.

Were you not there when those of “the Way” became known as “Christians” or when Pentecost took place or when the Church was first persecuted or when the Jews thought that they must appropriate the Body for themselves or when the Writings of the Apostles were declared Scriptures or when the first structures of the Church took place or when the first anathema was pronounced or when the first dissention threatened to derail the infant Church…?

Admitting mistakes is accepting the reality that man is flawed–I doubt anyone who is a serious Believer ignores that!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[setarcos]

jcrichton! I thank you for responding. I shall read and ruminate upon your comments and get back to you with what I have come to understand. God bless

 

[jcrichton]

For all we know an unobserved iceberg might melt into a puddle of chocolate fudge.

You truly believe that things instantaneously morph into other things as a natural course?

There’s a pile of debris in the back of my building… son it will turn into a super magnetic field to assist the earth’s supper magnet in keeping us safe from cosmic radiation–btw, I have some treasure maps that I can let you have for a few thousand dollars; really, just wire the mullah to 1borneverym.skr!

The universe IS observation!

Wait, so we are space travelers?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

if something is to be delegated that we are to know was delegated we must be able to observe what was delegated and how the delegation took place in that we know what it means to be delegated.

That’s called Apostolic Teaching and Apostolic Succession or in the vernacular, Church history.

Second the Church IS the totality of the followers of Christ.

So if tomorrow you decided that we are not Christians unless we accept all the religions of the world as they come into Christianity, you would be in concert with Christ’s Delegation?

They are two separate things. Jesus can be said to reside in the Church because he resides in each of her defining members.

No.

Jesus does cannot be designated to be in His Church because man claims it:

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. (St. Matthew 7)

It was Jesus, not I, Who Promised that He would remain with the Church till the end of times.

What is this unfolding? If we don’t yet have understanding of what the truth God wants us to follow is then what is it we are following and how is it we can follow in sincerity if we have no understanding?

a) Jesus Founded His Church
b) Commanded the Great Commission
c) Sent the Holy Spirit, the other Paraclete to Guide and Lead the Church
d) The Holy Spirit Unfolds God’s Revelation
e) Man continues to want to have it his way and is constantly reinventing the Great Commission

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you!

I need every Blessing!

May the Holy Spirit continue to Guide us to the Truth (Jesus)!

Maran atha!

Angel