Once Saved--Always Saved

[Pax]

Steven,

This is so true. To believe in Jesus is to believe everything He said. In Matthew 4:4 Jesus says “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” To live means to be spiritually alive and in communion with God and describes what it means to be in a state of justification.

Obedience and love are frequently mentioned in scripture. I am especially fond of the following:

Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 1:7-9
…inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord …

1John 2:17
And the world and its desire are passing away, but those who do the will of God live forever.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

--------------------------

1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him”

1Cor 13:1-2
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

1Cor 13:13
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

1Jn 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.

2 Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning-you must walk in it.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Pax,

Exellent! Have you ever visited my web site www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com ? We think alike.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Pax]

Steven,

I just spent some time perusing your website for the first time. You are doing great work. You obviously have a deep faith, a great love of God, and a great love of scripture. Keep spreading the message of faith, hope, and love as presented by our Savior Jesus Christ.

And you are right; we are definitely on the same page in the way we think. There is nothing like God’s grace in opening the eyes. Today’s gospel about the blind man cured by Jesus speaks directly to my heart. I was blind but now I see. The Lord’s infinite mercy and love have given us faith, hope, and charity. To obey God is to breath and live in the spirit. It is our natural home and our inheritance. To be otherwise is to be a fish out of water.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Pax:

Steven,

I just spent some time perusing your website for the first time. You are doing great work. You obviously have a deep faith, a great love of God, and a great love of scripture. Keep spreading the message of faith, hope, and love as presented by our Savior Jesus Christ.

And you are right; we are definitely on the same page in the way we think. There is nothing like God’s grace in opening the eyes. Today’s gospel about the blind man cured by Jesus speaks directly to my heart. I was blind but now I see. The Lord’s infinite mercy and love have given us faith, hope, and charity. To obey God is to breath and live in the spirit. It is our natural home and our inheritance. To be otherwise is to be a fish out of water.

Hello Pax,

Thank you for visiting I Love You, God! and thanks for the thumbs up.

Please keep up the wonderful wonderful wonderful work you are doing on these Catholic Answers forums. It is great that we are all working together to build up the Kingdom of God here on earth.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[mayra_hart]

can you lose your salvation once you accept jesus as lord and savior? most, though not all, fundamentalist believe that once you accept jesus as your lord and savior, it is impossible to lose your salvation. like many other protestant doctrines, this teaching was unheard of before the reformation. mt24:13 tells us that we must “endures to the end” in order to be save. st paul says the same thing in 2 tim2:12: that we must hold out to the end if we want to reign with christ. in rom 11:22, christians are warned that they will be cut off if they don’t persevere in the kindness of god. remember st paul’s advice:" work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"(phil2:12). who should have more asssurance of salvation than st. paul? yet he says:“i pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others i myself should be disqualified”(1 cor9:27). scripture is very clear: christian can lose their salvation.

 

[Philthy]

c0achmcguirk:

""I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. "
–John 15:1-2

Notice that those who are pruned are those who do not bear fruit? Are plants that do not bear fruit real Christians?

c0achmcguirk:

And the next day the tree was withered from the roots up!

Also look at the parable of the sower in Mark 4:1-20. We see the Sower (Jesus) throwing seed (the Word) on different types of soil (people). Some soils were rocky and the plant sprung up quickly, but since there was so little soil the plant withered and died. Some of the seed fell on the path, where birds came and ate it up. Other soils were thorny, and when the plants came up, they were choked by the thorns and died. And finally some seed fell on good soil and produced fruit.

Notice how the plants who do not bear fruit are non-Christians? Therefore the branches who are pruned in John 15 and Romans 11 were never Christians to begin with. As John tells us:

c0achmcguirk:

“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”
–1 John 2:19

Hi coach-

Sorry to butt in so late - I know Pax is more qualified than I am to respond, but this topic always pulls me in. The critical point of understanding in OSAS isn’t simply understanding just exactly what is meant by “faith alone”, but obviously one must also know that whatever is meant by “having faith” that they, in fact, have it.
What you seem to be overlooking in almost all of the examples tbat you provided is the simple message that you yourself do not know you have faith apart from good works! How does the fig tree know that it is a fig tree? By believing its a fig tree? NO, its by PRODUCING FIGS. How does the branch know if it’s a faithful branch? By being "connected’ to the vine? NO, by PRODUCING fruit. This is so much more consistent with the entire message of the NT. Perhaps God can judge who has faith apart from the works they perform, but you can’t - and that includes judging yourself -don’t let the enemy convince you otherwise.

One final thing. It always seems like the last safeplace for aderents of OSAS is to propose that all these verses of being cut off for not producing fruit is to say that “well they weren’t REAL Christians”. We could argue 'til we’re blue in the face over that, but consider this.
“If you do not forgive the sins of others, neither will your heavenly father forgive your sins” Mattew 16?
Lets say one is a “real” Christian and another person sins against him. Does this sin require the forgiveness of the Christian for that Christian to have his own sins forgiven(a prerequisite to salvation)? You bet, according to Jesus. And notice how it’s stated in the Gospel: it’s not that you are acquiring new sin - it says your sins (plural) will not be forgiven. Is salvation possible without the forgiveness of sins? I don’t think so. The normal reflex at this point is for the OSAS adherent to claim that this verse doesnt apply to Christians *this side of the Cross! *How odd: all these verses which aren’t recorded until all the people they apply to are long since dead. Seems like complete theological desperation to me. And why? All because of an abuse in the Chrurch over indulgences 500 years ago? You really need to get over that…

Phil

 

[sueipetros]

TPJCatholic:

Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?

 

[sueipetros]

TPJCatholic:

Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?

…some say, “our sins serve a good purpose, for people will see God’s goodness when he declares us sinners to be innocent. Isn’t it unfair, then, for God to punish us?” (That is actually the way some people talk.) Of course not! If God is not just, how is he qualified to judge the world? “But,” some might still argue, “how can God judge and condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?” If you follow that kind of thinking, however, you might as well say that the more we sin the better it is! Those who say such things deserve to be condemned, yet some slander me by saying this is
what I preach!
Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to bring the entire world into judgment before God. For no one can ever be made right in God’s sight by doing what his law commands. For the more we know God’s law, the clearer it becomes that we aren’t obeying it. **

**But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight—not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.

For all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God’s anger against us.

We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith.

So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. After all, God is not the God of the Jews only, is he? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Holy Bible, New Living Translation Romans 3 (extract)

 

[st_felicity]

sueipetros:

…some say, “our sins serve a good purpose, for people will see God’s goodness when he declares us sinners to be innocent. Isn’t it unfair, then, for God to punish us?” (That is actually the way some people talk.) Of course not! … Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

What point are you trying to make in reference to what TPJ said and you quoted in your original post? Is this a rebuttal to the claim (paraphrased) “if faith in Jesus and a personal relationship with Him is all that is required for salvation–then Catholics are “saved” according to the crowd that promotes that idea…”? If so, I’m missing it…or am I reading your intent wrong?

---

There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith,
This is in Romans? Where? I may be dim, but I’m having difficulty figuring out what you quoted from Romans and what are your own words (probably because of the translation you used)…But one thing I know for certain: no where in the Bible does it say you are saved by faith ALONE–in fact, James says*** NOT*** by faith alone are you saved…**

 

[Milliardo]

reggie:

What I find fascinating is that Catholics are ridiculed by protestants because we do not claim to know if we are indeed saved. They believe that once you are saved, you are good to go. But then when you ask them about people who were saved and have then gone on to commit serious sin and even to commit blashemy, they then claim that those people were not really saved.

A point I often ask Protestants who believe in OSAS, but they often cannot even answer. They just say that such people aren’t saved in the first place; but those same people said they were saved. So the follow-up question,

So then I ask, then how do you know if you are really saved?

can’t be answered either. They know they are saved by accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, but then retract when such people commit grave sin. It becomes loopy after that, since all that happens is a back-and-forth exchange with no real discussion going, to the point that the Protestant changes topic to save face.

 

[mayra_hart]

. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill. John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

 

[sueipetros]

st_felicity:

What point are you trying to make in reference to what TPJ said and you quoted in your original post? Is this a rebuttal to the claim (paraphrased) “if faith in Jesus and a personal relationship with Him is all that is required for salvation–then Catholics are “saved” according to the crowd that promotes that idea…”? If so, I’m missing it…or am I reading your intent wrong?

This is in Romans? Where? I may be dim, but I’m having difficulty figuring out what you quoted from Romans and what are your own words (probably because of the translation you used)…But one thing I know for certain: no where in the Bible does it say you are saved by faith ALONE–in fact, James says*** NOT*** by faith alone are you saved…

I apologize for the delay in response. I’ve been dealing with many other issues. All the words are direct quotes from Romans 3. None are mine. The translation, although a dynamic equivalent, is as trusted as the NIV or NASV. In fact one of my seminary professors helped on that translation. Romans does state that all of this is by faith and not works. It’s in black and white. If you move into the greek to check it, it’s true to the original text. Furthermore, if one is to read on to Chapter 4 the emphasis is even clearer to the point that blindness could only keep one from seeing it. We all can have states of spiritual blindness. I do. You do. I don’t doubt your salvation because of your obvious devout belief in Christ and his sacrifice. I don’t believe that the sacraments, reciting the rosary, a novena, a mass or any ceremony such as a communion will save those who haven’t had faith first. The rest is only ceremony celebrating and reinforcing the initial necessary act of belief and faith. Many walk the aisles each Sunday believing the ceremony saves a soul, that baptism saves a soul, that communion saves a soul, and many priests mistakenly stand in front administering sacraments in the same belief. NOTHING WE CAN DO OUTSIDE OF BELIEF AND FAITH CAN SAVE US. PAUL SAYS IT CLEARLY HERE AND ESPECIALLY IN CHAPTER 4! My point to TPJ was this. Paul is saying faith is it. It does matter what one does afterward though. Paul has addressed these issues and we are debating without reading his answers. Am I attacking the idea of celebrating mass and the use of ritual to reinforce belief and faith…never. I am addressing the idea of do anything if you know you’re safe and so was Paul. The spirit of God fills one after conversion through belief and faith, the works then are the sign of such a thing. This is what James is addressing too. Not that there is no salvation without works, but if there are no works was there really salvation and if so, it may as well be dead, he made no declaration that it didn’t exist in the absence of works! The same dichotomy of believers existed than as now and each apostle was addressing a different divergent group and bringing them back in line based on the nature of the error. One group was trying to earn it and Paul was telling them it couldn’t be done. One group was mistakenly believing it had been given freely so nothing else needed to go along with it. Paul said it couldn’t be earned it was a gift gained freely through belief and faith then the signs of belief which are acts of obedience followed, which would be the equivalents of the sacraments (Romans chapter 4). James was explaining if grace was all you have then it’s a pretty lifeless, heartless grace that’s being displayed back. What kind of example is that of emulating such a great gift as was given by Christ’s son? Give back and show your belief and faith through action so others will know too it is the truth.

God bless you and keep you in the happiness your name suggests!

Pete**
**

 

[sueipetros]

sueipetros:

*** Many walk the aisles each Sunday believing the ceremony saves a soul, that baptism saves a soul, that communion saves a soul, and many priests mistakenly stand in front administering sacraments in the same belief.*** NOTHING WE CAN DO OUTSIDE OF BELIEF AND FAITH CAN SAVE US. PAUL SAYS IT CLEARLY HERE AND ESPECIALLY IN CHAPTER 4!

All I can say to TPJ about Philipians 2. Never take a single verse out of context. Take a good course in Hermeneutics to learn how to deal with scriptural intent. Paul was talking about how God himself, Christ lowered himself to a state of poverty, wretchedness and death to give salvation, that we should likewise approach it that seriously and reverently. Paul’s main intent was that he couldn’t always be there to spoon feed them the truth, that they had to find the truth but not flippantly but in the same reverence in which Christ did it. Everyhting else that follows this point is scipture and none of my words.

Romans 4:

Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What were his experiences concerning this question of being saved by faith? Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God’s point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride. 3For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous.” When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive. But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work. King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord.” Now then, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it for Gentiles, too? Well, what about Abraham? We have been saying he was declared righteous by God because of his faith. But how did his faith help him? Was he declared righteous only after he had been circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? The answer is that God accepted him first, and then he was circumcised later! The circumcision ceremony was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are made right with God by faith. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised. It is clear, then, that God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was not based on obedience to God’s law, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith. So if you claim that God’s promise is for those who obey God’s law and think they are “good enough” in God’s sight, then you are saying that faith is useless. And in that case, the promise is also meaningless. But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!) So that’s why faith is the key! God’s promise is given to us as a free gift. And we are certain to receive it, whether or not we follow Jewish customs, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.

 

[st_felicity]

sueipetros:

I apologize for the delay in response. I’ve been dealing with many other issues. All the words are direct quotes from Romans 3. None are mine. The translation, although a dynamic equivalent, is as trusted as the NIV or NASV. In fact one of my seminary professors helped on that translation. Romans does state that all of this is by faith and not works. It’s in black and white. If you move into the greek to check it, it’s true to the original text. Furthermore, if one is to read on to Chapter 4 the emphasis is even clearer to the point that blindness could only keep one from seeing it. We all can have states of spiritual blindness. I do. You do. I don’t doubt your salvation because of your obvious devout belief in Christ and his sacrifice. I don’t believe that the sacraments, reciting the rosary, a novena, a mass or any ceremony such as a communion will sav…

Are you under the completely false assumption that Catholics believe they have anything to do with their own salvation? Everything is from God–even my grace to accept His word and follow His teaching. No Catholic worth his salt (or light) believes he merits eternal life. And certainly devotions that are pious practices do not “earn” heaven–they are done for the glory of God.

I think that’s how you’re coming at it…I am still having difficulty understanding the point you are trying to make…I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but maybe it’s the colors and underlining, or maybe it’s you’re lumping a bunch of potential issues into a single thread. Hang around and look around. If I am right about what you think Catholicism is about, you are working under several false understandings–just say what you mean clearly and concisely and I will try to answer better. As it stands, concerning OSAS, what does a believer in that doctrine do with the myriad verses that contradict “Assurance”?

 

[petra]

Pax:

But if that isn’t enough lets move on to Hebrews 10:26-27 where it says, “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” The author then goes on in verses 28-31, “A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Once again this warning is made to those who have already been saved. If all of those that were saved were all going to persevere then there is no point in making these warnings.

Thank you for your fantastic explanations, Pax. It is interesting to note that Hebrews 10:26-29 contains the 3 conditions for mortal sin: freedom of will (sinning willfully), full knowledge (knowledge of the truth), and grave matter (insulting the Holy Spirit). The author of Hebrew is definitely talking to Christians and warns them of the need to endure so that they may then receive what is promised: salvation.

I see that Coach has not posted in awhile. My prayers are with him, as it is a painful process to realize that OSAS is errant. I think the more intellectual and theological a Calvinist is, the more painful this deconstruction is. But the scriptures do plainly teach that if we sin willfully, boldly, and severely we abandon the grace and the gift that God offers us so kindly.

 

[trailblazer]

I’d like to thank Church Militant for the website for the Catholic Home Study Course. This may come in handy as I run into people who want to understand Catholicism.

As far as the Bible, the Catholics are the ones who took traditions of Christian communities and put them in the Bible. Thus, the Church is the source of the Bible and stays within the tradition it teaches.

As far as once saved always saved…this is poor theology and an excuse for an easy life for those who look for the easy way. Paul says that he works in fear and trembling towards his salvation…not assured, but hopeful. Jesus said that we will be judged on our actions and following him by taking our crosses each day. Someday, he will seperate the sheep from the goats based on Christian charity. Jesus always has the gift in his hands ready for us, but it is for us to*** freely*** choose or reject every day. No one can say they it does not matter how they act towards others because “They are saved!”, after all, what we do to others, we do to Christ. Being saved takes a continued renewal of commitment and sincere repentanceof sins every day. A person can, and many have after a long period of professed faith, denied Christ and walked the other way.

I would suggest that it would be a smart thing for Protestants to take home study like what ChurchMilitant offered or the RCIA, and return to their true home, the mother Church of rebellious offspring who has protected and gives us the true doctrine of Christ. She does not dilute her gospel for the sake of popular opinion, but safegards his teachings, and gives us his body and blood for nourishment of our body and soul. ***No other denomination can provide these. ***

 

[sueipetros]

st_felicity:

Are you under the completely false assumption that Catholics believe they have anything to do with their own salvation? Everything is from God–even my grace to accept His word and follow His teaching. No Catholic worth his salt (or light) believes he merits eternal life. And certainly devotions that are pious practices do not “earn” heaven–they are done for the glory of God.

I think that’s how you’re coming at it…I am still having difficulty understanding the point you are trying to make…I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but maybe it’s the colors and underlining, or maybe it’s you’re lumping a bunch of potential issues into a single thread. Hang around and look around. If I am right about what you think Catholicism is about, you are working under several false understandings–just say what you mean clearly and concisely and I will try to answer better. As it stands, concerning OSAS, what does a believer in that doctrine do with the myriad verses that contradict “Assurance”?

I don’t believe, but know, that Catholics believe that the sacraments and their repeated practice, along with penance, are necessary to maintain salvation. This is salvation by works. Just as explained in Romans 4. This explicitly displays they don’t believe in assured salvation and the “once and for all sacrifice” the author of Hebrews promises. This is also promised many places in scripture. I understand the purpose of this forum to discourage people from believing in “eternal security” due to many scriptural references taken out of historical or practical context. The promises of secure salvation once and for all are real and firm. This is the intent of my discourse. I’m not confused. I’m certain and trying to impart this assurance that we can approach the throne of grace confidently catholic or protestant! But I’ll stay in keeping with your tradition of taking bits of scripture and parables, but instead of questioning assurance, I’ll offer those that confirm it. Here’s the pinnacle of Paul’s point he leads toward in all of Romans, which is assurance and it is once and for all. Previous to this section he speaks of the constant intercession of the Holy Spirit and our savior Christ Jesus on our behalf. This intercession keeps propitiation and forgiveness automatic and never ending. Also I’d like to mention that Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska had the right idea that salvation can be immediate even at the point of death, regardless of deeds. It resembles a sinners prayer, except the repetition is uneccessary.

Holy Bible, New Living Translation, Romans 8:

What can we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since God did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t God, who gave us Christ, also give us everything else? Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? Will God? No! He is the one who has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for he is the one who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us. Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or are hungry or cold or in danger or threatened with death? (Even the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can’t, and life can’t. The angels can’t, and the demons can’t. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can’t keep God’s love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[st_felicity]

sueipetros:

I don’t believe, but know, that Catholics believe that the sacraments and their repeated practice, along with penance, are necessary to maintain salvation. This is salvation by works. Just as explained in Romans 4. This explicitly displays they don’t believe in assured salvation and the “once and for all sacrifice” the author of Hebrews promises.

Protestants and Catholics use the same words, but use them differently. Protestants look the word salvation and see it as something that happens during this mortal life to man if he believes–Catholics look at the word salvation and view it as the gift of Christ (freely given at Calvary) but culminating for the individual mortal man at a future event upon his death. We say we are justified through faith (which is a grace) and saved (or not) by God’s judgment upon our death. We DO NOT look upon the sacraments as a means of “salvation”, the sacraments are a means of “grace”–which is needed for faith, which leads to justification, which gives us “confidence” (but not assurance, lest we presume upon God’s mercy) in our future salvation.

To address Hebrews: Catholics DO believe in the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Nothing more is needed for ultimate salvation. But salvation is a gift of eternity. Eternity is a constant NOW–past present and future all at once. I cannot experience eternity in my mortal body. The closest thing to experiencing the eternal gift of salvation I can experience in this mortal body bound by time is to accept the gift and to keep accepting it until I have it in the eternal NOW upon my death. Until then (which isn’t really a “then”) I must persist in accepting the gift moment by moment and persevere until the end.

Holy Bible, New Living Translation, Romans 8:
.

I understand you like this translation–I find it really difficult because I am not familiar with it–I can converse using the KJV…

Lam.3

1. 
   ]26] It is good that a man should both* hope** and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
   
   1Thes.5
   1. 
      ]8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the* hope** of salvation.
      
      Isa.62
      1. 
         ]11] Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his* work** before him.
         
         CONTINUED…

 

[st_felicity]

2Cor.7

1. 
   ]10] For godly sorrow* worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world work**eth death.
   
   Phil.2
   1. 
      ]12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,* work** out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
      
      Isa.25
      1. 
         ]9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he* will** save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we** will** be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
         
         4Ezra.8
         1. 
            ]39] But I* will** rejoice over the disposition of the righteous, and I** will** remember also their pilgrimage, and the salvation, and the reward, that they shall have.
            
            Jdt.8
            1. 
               ]17] Therefore let us wait for salvation of him, and call upon him to help us, and he* will** hear our voice, if it please him.
               
               Isa.45
               1. 
                  ]17] But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without* end**.
                  
                  Isa.49
                  1. 
                     ]6] And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the* end** of the earth.
                     
                     Isa.52
                     1. 
                        ]10] The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the* end**s of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
                        
                        Isa.62
                        1. 
                           ]11] Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the* end** of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
                           
                           4Ezra.6
                           1. 
                              ]25] Whosoever remaineth from all these that I have told thee shall escape, and see my salvation, and the* end** of your world.
                              
                              2Cor.1
                              1. 
                                 ]6] And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the* end**uring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
                                 
                                 2Tim.2
                                 1. 
                                    ]10] Therefore I* end**ure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
                                    
                                    1Pet.1
                                    1. 
                                       ]9] Receiving the* end** of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
                                       
                                       CONTINUED…

 

[st_felicity]

Here’s an illustration that is very clear written by Genesis315 on another thread:

Quote:
With original sin, we are essentially put in a debtors prison with no way to pay our debt. When Jesus died he paid our debt and purchased our release. This just means the door to our cell is opened; it doesn’t mean we are beamed out of the prison. The only way we can leave the prison is by taking Jesus’ hand and walking out with Him. We can choose not to take His hand and remain in our prison cell. If we do take His hand, we will begin our walk towards the door. Every time we sin mortally, it’s like we let go of Jesus’ hand and fall down. He reaches His hand out to us again and we can choose to take it again, get up, and continue walking with Him, or we can choose not to. If we make it to the door (when we die) and we are still holding his hand, we have persevered and are saved. If we get to the door and are separated from Jesus, in essence we let Him walk out the door and we close it behind him, choosing to remain alone in our prison forever.