Once Saved--Always Saved

[mtr01]

haole:

So, how do the OSAS-ers, “my sins will be washed away by His blood”, get their sins forgiven? Doesn’t this direct statement of forgiveness assert that we MUST DO something, ie, forgive?

I agree with you here, and is why I like to refer to the Our Father as the most dangerous prayer known to man. All because of one petition: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. In other words, we will be forgiven to the extent we forgive.

 

[Styree]

Hi, I’m new to this site, been Catholic for two years this Easter since converting from my pagan religion. This is my first post.

Predestination:

 My understanding is that this concept implies that God has already made his choice as to who goes up and who goes down.

So, it could be that I am already on God’s “A” list, and my salvation is assured, no matter what I do.

My response to being on God’s “A” list is that I am going out drinking tonight and get laid, 'cause I’m guranteed a spot on the Express Elevator up, no matter what “sins” I commit.
OR
It could be that I’m already on God’s “S” list, and my damnation is assured no matter what I do.

Me response to being on God’s “S” list is that I am going out drinking tonight and get laid, 'cause I’m a goner whether I spend the night in prayer or debauchery.

What exactely is the incentive or reasoning behind a theology that is based a Divine Lottery (a fixed Divine lottery at that)???

Why did we need a Saviour for this in the first place?

Was Jesus just here to instill fear in people, telling them some of you are getting saved and some of you are damned, no matter what you say or do? This seems rather cruel!

I understand the Catholic argument much better, as it seems to make the most sense to me. God made man in his image and likeness so that man could share in the Divine Life. The destiny God has for each person is to share in his life. Thus, we are predestined to go to Heaven and be with God. It seems I read in the Bible that Hell was made for Satan and the other fallen angels. I don’t recall Jesus or God saying that Hell was made for man. Heaven then, If I am right, is our natural place of residence and it is only in the rejection of the destiny that God has recreated for us, which we can do because God does not force his life upon us, that we follow Satan and the demons in Hell.

If predestination is true, then we have a singularly cruel and ugly God who randomly(?) condemns his children to eternal fire.

 

[noapology]

Todays readings are convincing enough for me if you turn you burn baby…

**Reading I
**Ez 18:21-28

Thus says the Lord GOD:
If the wicked man turns away from all the sins he committed,
if he keeps all my statutes and does what is right and just,
he shall surely live, he shall not die.
None of the crimes he committed shall be remembered against him;
he shall live because of the virtue he has practiced.
Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked?
says the Lord GOD.
Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way
that he may live?

And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil,
the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does,
can he do this and still live?
None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered,
because he has broken faith and committed sin;
because of this, he shall die.
You say, “The LORD’s way is not fair!”
Hear now, house of Israel:
Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair?
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies,
it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die.
But if the wicked, turning from the wickedness he has committed,
does what is right and just,
he shall preserve his life;
since he has turned away from all the sins that he committed,
he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 130:1-2, 3-4, 5-7a, 7bc-8

R (3) If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, who can stand?
Out of the depths I cry to you, O LORD;
LORD, hear my voice!
Let your ears be attentive
to my voice in supplication.
R If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, who can stand?
If you, O LORD, mark iniquities,
LORD, who can stand?
But with you is forgiveness,
that you may be revered.
R If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, who can stand?
I trust in the LORD;
my soul trusts in his word.
My soul waits for the LORD
more than sentinels wait for the dawn.
Let Israel wait for the LORD.
R If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, who can stand?
For with the LORD is kindness
and with him is plenteous redemption;
And he will redeem Israel
from all their iniquities.
R If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, who can stand?

Gospel
Mt 5:20-26

Jesus said to his disciples:
"I tell you,
unless your righteousness surpasses that
of the scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors,
You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.
But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother
will be liable to judgment,
and whoever says to his brother, Raqa,
will be answerable to the Sanhedrin,
and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar,
and there recall that your brother
has anything against you,
leave your gift there at the altar,
go first and be reconciled with your brother,
and then come and offer your gift.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court.
Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge,
and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you,
you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Sorry the Lord does not seem to be politically correct. Since most protestants do not believe in purgatory this could only mean hell for them.

 

[Jaypeeto]

“Once saved, always saved,” or “Eternal Security,” is a heresy that originated in the fevered minds of Calvin, etc., and was unheard-of in all of Christianity from 33 A.D. down to the 16th century. Read the earliest church fathers - they all taught that true Christians could fall away and lose their salvation. And THEY were taught by the apostles…

Jaypeeto

 

[Pax]

Hello Coach!

It is important to note that both Coach and MichaelP are correct in differentiating between OSAS and Perseverence of the Saints.

Let’s all hope that we receive the necessary grace to persevere.

Both OSAS believers and traditional Calvinists do believe in salvation by faith alone. MichaelP says that it is by faith alone but that saving faith is never alone. I frequently hear non-catholics also say that good works are a result of faith. They are quick to point out, however, that good works having nothing to do with being saved. The problem with all of this is that it is not consistent with the language of scripture.

The often quoted verses from the letters to Paul to support OSAS or faith alone teachings are not truly supportive of these doctrines. The verses are isolated from their context. To believe that Paul’s writings mean that we are “saved by faith alone” would require several things to be true.

1. Paul must contradict himself. There are numerous examples but we can refer to Romans 11: 20-21 where Paul says, “That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, **neither will he spare you. ** Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Or again in Romans 2 3-11 Paul says,
   “Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.”
2. Paul would have to contradict Peter. In 2 Peter 2: 20-22 the apostle says, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”
3. Paul would have to contradict John. In 1 John 2: 3-6 we read, "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
4. Paul would have to contradict Jesus. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6: 14-15, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
5. Paul would have to contradict James. The apostle James says, "Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.[James 2:20-24]

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Look at the language of scripture. It is clear that we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone. It is the power of God working within us that produces justification, sanctification, good works and our final glorification. None of these can be separated from grace. If you separate any of them from grace you commit an error concerning grace. Separating them from one another as part of the package of salvation compounds the error. Justification is something much more than simply a forensic application of the righteousness of Christ.

Look closely at what James says in verse 26. He compares faith and works with the body and spirit and says, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” We can understand the relationship of faith and works in justification if we simply look at the analogy used by James. Departing from this analogy of body and spirit leads to the error of faith alone. If the apostle James can say that we are saved by faith and works then Catholic teaching is correct in stating that we are saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, through God’s lavish grace, by faith and works.

 

[MaggieOH]

HilaryJ:

I would say that believing what the “pastors” preach from the pulpits is a Catholic belief. You say that the traditions of the church are just as important as the Bible, and any Pope can add or change doctrine, so I would at the least say that this is a weak argument. I don’t bow down to any pastor. I use the Bible as my guide.

Hilary,

no offence, but I do not believe you when you say that you do not bow to any pastor.

Look at the difference between what you call a worship service and the Catholic Mass. At least 80% of the Catholic Mass is Scriptural, yet in the Protestant, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Baptist worship service there is something less than 15% that is based upon the Scripture. Yes, Hilary, that figure is correct.

The reason that it is correct is that in most other Protestant denominations a lot of time is spent by the Pastor who preaches damnation - “If you do not give up your sin and repent you are going to hell… I call all those who want to repent of their sin to come forward at this very instant, and ask Jesus to be your personal Lord and Saviour…” That type of preaching is foreign to Catholics because first and foremost we give praise, honour and glory to God alone.

Also, how many times do I hear Protestant Evangelical Fundamentalists quoting this or that person, such as Norman Geisler, John McArthur etc. etc. I have heard them talking about buying a Bible with a commentary written by John McArthur. Now if that is exactly the kind of thing that happens amongs “Christians” who then turn around and make false accusations to Catholics about their sources of material.

BTW you are wrong about what we say. Sacred Tradition is one thing and disciplines are a different matter. The Bishop of Rome cannot make changes to Sacred Tradition. He cannot for example declare that there will be women priests because to do that is going against Sacred Tradition. On the other hand he can rule on issues that do not relate to Faith and Morals.

However, this is dragging the thread off-topic so if you want to respond, then go start a thread with your allegations.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

I do not believe in OSAS, not because I do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, but because I believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a doctrine which is a false gospel.

First of all, I believe that everyone who has been baptized bears the mark of Christ on their souls. In this way we all belong to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Since we belong to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, we belong to the Father.

However, just because we belong to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth does not mean that we will automatically enter into the Kingdom of Heaven in the next world. Why?

This “why” leads to my second point, which is about Grace, and how we understand the working of grace in our lives. We belong to the family of God because of our Baptism. It is at Baptism that we received an indelible mark on our souls that means we belong to God. At Baptism we received Grace for the first time, thus we were sanctified and all sin was wiped away at the moment that we were baptised and the Holy Spirit came down upon us. However, it is because we are weak human creatures that we have the continuing propensity to sin, - St. Augustine called this concupiscence.

It is because of concupiscence that we find ourselves being regularly tempted and sometimes giving into that temptation, thus we commit a sin against neighbour and against God. If we never repent of that sin then our soul becomes blackened and muddy as a result of that sin. Once a small sin is committed and you get away with that small thing there is a growing temptation to commit bigger and bigger sins, until one’s soul is nearly dead and resembling the valley of dry bones in the Book of Ezekiel.

Here then is my third point. One has the free will to choose life or to choose death. So far I have discovered that few understand what is really meant by life and death in the Scripture. If we choose life then we want to do the will of the Father and in doing the will of the Father, we continue to hope that we will receive the eternal reward. On the other hand if we choose the pleasures of this world - money etc - over doing the will of God then we do choose death. We choose to take the inheritance and run. This is what happened to the prodigal son. He decided to leave the Father and waste his inheritance. Now if anyone chooses the same path as the prodigal son all will be lost unless he too is open to the silent promptings of God.

OSAS is a false gospel because it leads people to believe that they do not have to lift a finger after they have “accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour”. These are the same people who curse their fellow Christians and say such things as Catholics are pagans, are idolators and they will go to hell.

What kind of attitude is that? Is that the ultimate of what is taught by those who espouse OSAS?

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

I do not believe in OSAS, not because I do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, but because I believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a doctrine which is a false gospel.

First of all, I believe that everyone who has been baptized bears the mark of Christ on their souls. In this way we all belong to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Since we belong to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, we belong to the Father.

However, just because we belong to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth does not mean that we will automatically enter into the Kingdom of Heaven in the next world. Why?

This “why” leads to my second point, which is about Grace, and how we understand the working of grace in our lives. We belong to the family of God because of our Baptism. It is at Baptism that we received an indelible mark on our souls that means we belong to God. At Baptism we received Grace for the first time, thus we were sanctified and all sin was wiped away at the moment that we were baptised and the Holy Spirit came down upon us. However, it is because we are weak human creatures that we have the continuing propensity to sin, - St. Augustine called this concupiscence.

It is because of concupiscence that we find ourselves being regularly tempted and sometimes giving into that temptation, thus we commit a sin against neighbour and against God. If we never repent of that sin then our soul becomes blackened and muddy as a result of that sin. Once a small sin is committed and you get away with that small thing there is a growing temptation to commit bigger and bigger sins, until one’s soul is nearly dead and resembling the valley of dry bones in the Book of Ezekiel.

Here then is my third point. One has the free will to choose life or to choose death. So far I have discovered that few understand what is really meant by life and death in the Scripture. If we choose life then we want to do the will of the Father and in doing the will of the Father, we continue to hope that we will receive the eternal reward. On the other hand if we choose the pleasures of this world - money etc - over doing the will of God then we do choose death. We choose to take the inheritance and run. This is what happened to the prodigal son. He decided to leave the Father and waste his inheritance. Now if anyone chooses the same path as the prodigal son all will be lost unless he too is open to the silent promptings of God.

OSAS is a false gospel because it leads people to believe that they do not have to lift a finger after they have “accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour”. These are the same people who curse their fellow Christians and say such things as Catholics are pagans, are idolators and they will go to hell.

What kind of attitude is that? Is that the ultimate of what is taught by those who espouse OSAS?

MaggieOH

 

[john_ennis]

Steven Merten:

Hello Mickey,

I think that it is more clear to say

Catholics believe the only way to heaven is through the saving grace of Jesus Christ, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.

Where the Protestant theology fails is that it denies human free willed gifts of love and obedience to God that Jesus called for in order to go to heaven. Protestant theology fails to acknowledge that man posesses post baptism free willed choices to love or hate God through obedience or disobedience to God which Jesus teaches us effects whether or not we go to heaven.

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

NAB JOH 14:23Jesus answered:

“Anyone who loves me will be true to my word, and my Father will love him; we will come to him and make our dwelling place with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words. Yet the word you hear is not mine; it comes from the Father who sent me.”

NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

Those passages are compelling, and yet to the myriad of biblical examples where God is shown to judge our works, Protestants deny that the works were a cause of our salvation.

So let’s add to this Paul’s example of the widows in 1 Tim 5:11-15. The only difference between the young widows bringing “judgment on themselves” or not, had nothing to do with a difference in faith, per se. It was about whether they were placed on the list of widows, which could lead them to break a pledge not to remarry.

I’ve been wanting to hear what people thought of this passage as it answers the Protestant understanding that our obedience is a spontaneous response to our faith, and has no effect on our salvation. Even to Matthew 25, a sola fide Christian will say, “Christ isn’t judging our works; he is presenting them as proof of the faith which alone is saving us.” This cannot be stated in the passage from Timothy, for the same person (the young widow) stands to be saved or not, depending on the occasion of sin which is brought about by placing her on the list of widows.
Thoughts?

Peace.
John

 

[mainelyned]

TPJ: You have to realize that salvation is not a “one time” event in a person’s life. You don’t just step up with hands raised and say “I accept Christ” and are saved. Salvation is a life long process. Accepting Christ, by faith, is just the first step in that life long process. We must continue our “faithfulness” throughout our lives. It is the condition of our soul when we die that is important. God bless…

 

[Pax]

The book of Romans contains a lot of instruction concerning faith and its role in salvation. Paul in his letters, however, doesn’t say that we are saved by faith alone and salvation is a done deal. The apostle Paul opens his letter to the Romans by stating that through Christ “…we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all nations,”(Romans 1:4-5). Later Paul asks the question, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or obedience which leads to righteousness?"[Romans 6:16]. Paul goes on to add “For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win** obedience** from the Gentiles,”[Romans 15:18]. Finally, Paul concludes Romans by giving glory to God and includes the phrase, “according to the command of eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith.”[Romans 16:26]. The obedience of faith is the frame work upon which Paul writes his epistle to the Romans.

Obedience is an integral part of faith. This is revealed in the words of Jesus in the gospel and is reinforced by the testimony of all of the apostles. It is important to remember that faith is a form of grace, and is an unearned gift from God, and that everything proceeds from the grace of God. If faith, as a simple belief, is all that is necessary for salvation, Paul would not tell us “So faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love”(1 Corinthians 13:13), or that “…if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”(1 Corinthians 13:2).

Saving faith needs to be understood in terms of love also. In fact, Jesus tells us in the gospels that the two great commandments are to love God with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. If we believe in Jesus as the new covenant, our obedience to faith must include the Lord’s commands to love God and neighbor. The apostle Paul expresses this imperative when he says, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."(Galatians 5:6)

Non-Catholic Christians might better appreciate the Catholic position if they would read everything that scripture says about love and obedience and then reconsider all that Paul says. The teachings of Jesus, and the NT letters of all of the apostolic writers find their congruence in Catholic teaching. Catholics can comfortably and rightly quote the apostle Paul and comfortably and rightly quote the apostle James. Protestants find it difficult if not impossible to quote James when he says we are saved by faith and works. Moreover, they cannot seem to comfortably quote James when he explicitly says we are “not saved by faith alone.”

 

[mainelyned]

PAX: I couldn’t agree with you more. Most of our Protestant brothers forget about that “obedience to faith.” I have been “battling” in another forum (Protestant) over this issue for several months. They they have a mindset about it and it is hard for them to see the truth. The OSAS idea is relatively new and it seems to be catching on with a lot of people (including Catholics, unfortunately). I wish there was more discussion about this issue in our parishes.

God bless…

 

[Pax]

c0achmcguirk:

Must have, sorry. Have a lot of people gunnin’ for me lately, so its hard to keep up.

…
…
However, it is one thing to say that we are justified by faith + good works done in a state of grace (I know Catholics say God gives the grace to do the good works), and another thing to say we are justified by faith alone (true faith would be accompanied by good works).

God bless,
c0ach

c0ach,

There is, indeed, a significant difference in the way Catholics and Protestants make reference to faith and works. I have in my prior posts tried to give reasons for the Catholic expressions and explanations. Looking at your words in the above quote, and comparing them directly to the words of the apostle, James, brings into focus our point of disagreement. The Catholic doesn’t need to re-word James in any way. In fact, doing so would change the meaning and intention of the inspired author. There really is no argument around the teaching of James. You either accept it as it is written or you must reject it. The rejection was so significant to Luther that he removed the epistle of James from his German translation of the bible. Modern Protestants would never consider doing such a thing but their rejection of his clear teaching may be tantamount to doing so.

You mentioned that Catholic teaching says that God gives us the grace to do good works. This is an important step in appreciating Catholic teaching. The regenerative nature of God’s grace and glorious work of justification includes good works. In Eph 2:8-10 we read, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” This set of passages is crucial. The good works that we are to do were prepared by God in advance of our justification that we should walk in them. We are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works.

Our initial gift of justification is not our own doing and neither are the works prepared beforehand. Our works are God’s works in us. We are His workmanship and not our own. Everything is accomplished by God’s grace. The following verses further illustrate the power of God and the Holy Spirit working within us:

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

It is clear to the Catholic that justification is by faith and works. The mechanisms for faith and works are the same. The source of faith and works are the same. The power involved in faith and works are the same. It is all from God and by way of His grace poured out upon us by the merits of Jesus death on the cross. It is by grace that we are “regenerated” and not simply saved by a “forensic imputation” of Christ’s expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation. That is why Peter says, " Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”[1 Peter 1:13-16]

 

[reggie]

Mt 7:24-27 Everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. and everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was its fall!

Luke 11:28 But he said, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it’

These passages are just two examples whereby Jesus says that we must hear and obey, hear and do. In other words, we are to be cooperative with Jesus in our own salvation. The problem with OSAS is that it removes personal responsiblity. This is not to say that we can do good works to merit being saved, that comes only with faith in Jesus. But, true faith will yield good works. We demonstrate our faith by what we do and say. It is not enough just to hear and accept grace. The first passage is preceded by the parable of the bad tree and bad fruit and the good tree and good fruit. We have a say in our salvation, what we do after we receive Jesus is as important as the initial reception.

 

[Pax]

c0ach,

You argued double predestination and you used the example of Pharaoh from Romans 9. There are thirteen verses in the Book of Exodus that refer to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. Many of the verses indicate that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but several verses indicate that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, while still others simply indicate that his heart was hardened without explicitly stating who did the hardening. All of the verses are talking about the same thing.

Your use of these verses does not justify predestination of the damned. This would be an evil act by an evil god. The God we worship is by definition all good and cannot go against His own nature. God cannot do an evil act. How we understand what God does is based on divine revelation, but as Paul says we see only “through a glass dimly.” Moreover, Paul points out that we cannot know the mind of God and he tells us, "O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”[Romans 11:33-34]. While we can’t understand everything we can know that nothing about God can be contrary to his divine nature.

One of the best explanations that I have ever read concerning the actions and outcomes of God relative to the saved and the unsaved is a quote attributed to Origen. For purposes of illustration Origin compared grace to sunlight. He stated that God’s grace falls on the hearts of men like sunlight and that a heart could either be like wax or wet clay. When the sunlight strikes the wax it melts and when it strikes the clay it hardens and cracks. This analogy is particularly applicable in the case of Pharaoh. We can see that the mighty works of God gave great hope to the Israelites and would normally open the eyes of the unbeliever. But this did not happen with Pharaoh. Instead, God’s great works hardened Pharaoh’s heart because Pharaoh would have it no other way. We see a contrast in how Pharaoh responded as opposed to the response of some members of his court. In Exodus 8:19 it says, “And the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.” Pharaoh’s advisors even saw that God was working wonders on behalf of the Israelites. Pharaoh was given much but he placed himself above God, for he beleived himself to be a god and he would not be deterred. Satan and the fallen angels were created in holiness. God did not make them turn from Him. Likewise, Adam and Eve were created in a state of perfect justification and God did not make them sin against Him. So also, Pharaoh and the rest of the unsaved are not predestined to hell. Such a thing would go directly against God’s nature and His desire that all men be saved[1 Tim 2:3-4, 1 Tim 4:10, 1John 2:2, Rom 11:32].

 

[mainelyned]

Reggie: I also found that the OSAS group believe in the “one-time” justification. They accept Christ and are saved…deed done. Nothing else need be done…kick of the shoes and just go with the flow, 'cause heaven is guaranteed!!. No matter how many scripture verses you point to, they don’t change their mindset. The site I was on was Dr. Charles Stanley’s site. I liked his preaching and at one time accepted his teachings until I “saw the light” (I read his book and that turned me off!!) and now am totally against it. Learned a lot about Evangelicals and Fundamentalists while trying to defend the Catholic position. Just about given up on them…it is like hitting your head against a brick wall! Another big topic is “dispensationalism” and the “Rapture”!

God bless…

 

[_Joshua]

Mat:7: 21:21 Not everyone that sait to me, Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in Heaven, he shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me on that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name ?

23 And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work in iniquity.

---

I can only assume from the above, that OSAS is a damned risky insurance policy.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Pax:

To believe that Paul’s writings mean that we are “saved by faith alone” would require several things to be true.

1. Paul must contradict himself. There are numerous examples but we can refer to Romans 11: 20-21

Let’s first look at the passage:

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. "
–Romans 11:20-21

This passage is very much related to John 15, in which Jesus says:

""I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. "
–John 15:1-2

Notice that those who are pruned are those who do not bear fruit? Are plants that do not bear fruit real Christians?

Not according to Jesus. For example in Mark 11 you have the fig tree that did not bear figs, even though they were out of season. Jesus says to the tree in Mark 11:14:

"Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. "
–Mark 11:14

And the next day the tree was withered from the roots up!

Also look at the parable of the sower in Mark 4:1-20. We see the Sower (Jesus) throwing seed (the Word) on different types of soil (people). Some soils were rocky and the plant sprung up quickly, but since there was so little soil the plant withered and died. Some of the seed fell on the path, where birds came and ate it up. Other soils were thorny, and when the plants came up, they were choked by the thorns and died. And finally some seed fell on good soil and produced fruit.

Notice how the plants who do not bear fruit are non-Christians? Therefore the branches who are pruned in John 15 and Romans 11 were never Christians to begin with. As John tells us:

“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”
–1 John 2:19

Or again in Romans 2 3-11 Paul says,

Romans 2 was never meant to be read outside of Romans 1 - 4. It’s a continuous thought chain linked with many “therefores.” In Romans 2:3-11, Paul is talking about how everybody deserves God’s wrath:

“There will be affliction and distress on everyone who does evil, on the Jew first and also the Greek.”
–Romans 2:9

The passage is Paul’s argument for how all of us fall short of God’s requirements and why we need a savior.

Paul calls those who judge others hypocrites in Romans 2:3 because they do the same sins everyone else does. In 2:7, those who persevere in doing good will be given eternal life. However Paul is not laying out a plan of salvation, but bringing people’s attention to the hopelessness of their situation. After all:

"What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; "
–Romans 3:9-10

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God "
–Romans 3:23

Read Romans 1-4 together. Paul’s message will become clear: that we desperately need a savior because we all have sin and we cannot achieve salvation by works.

(cont.)

 

[c0achmcguirk]

(cont)

1. Paul would have to contradict Peter. In 2 Peter 2: 20-22

First, let’s look at the passage:

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. "
–2 Peter 2:20-21

This passage in no way teaches that a justified, elect person can fall away from righteousness. Why? Because knowing “the way of righteousness” does not mean one is saved. James 2:19 talks about how there are some who believe there is one God, but that is not enough (the demons believe and shudder). Obviously one can know certain truths about Christianity and yet not be saved.

This can be seen in the Parable of the Sower.

“Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.”
–Mark 4:16-17

When one reads the Parable of the Sower there is something important to notice: none of those plants that wither and die (people falling away) bore fruit–therefore they were never Christians to begin with. It is the plants that bear fruit which persevere with the word.

Similarly, one can know the “way of righteousness,” (understand the Gospel, recognize that there is a God), yet fall away because he or she didn’t bear fruit. He or she was not a Christian in the first place.

1. Paul would have to contradict John. In 1 John 2: 3-6 we read, "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments…

Yes, you pointed out our position on this already. This is not a problematic passage. A true saving faith will be accompanied by good works. Justification is always followed by sanctification. It is the act of sanctification that makes believers desire to keep God’s commandments. One who does not desire to keep God’s commandments has not been sanctified (nor justified). That means they are not true believers.

1. Paul would have to contradict Jesus. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6: 14-15, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

It is a mistake to read a verse given in one context (the importance of forgiveness) and interpret it in another (how one can be saved). Let’s be honest here…have you completely forgiven everyone perfectly and completely? Of course you haven’t. If you think this verse pertains to salvation, however, you’re in big trouble with your forgiveness issues.