Once Saved--Always Saved

[c0achmcguirk]

1. Paul would have to contradict James. The apostle James says, "Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

Again, not a problematic passage. Calvinists are not ashamed to state that a faith without works is not true faith. This is part and parcel of justification.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.[James 2:20-24]

The word (dikaioo Gr.) does not always mean a forensic declaration. It also can mean “to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered.” The words meaning must be determined by its context, not some blind assertion that the word means the same thing in every passage.

Paul clearly speaks of Justification “before God” and “in His sight” (cf. Romans 3:20, 4:6), whereas James is talking about justification before men:

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
–James 2:18

The context of justification in James 2 can be summed up by James’ words “show me”: evidencing your faith before other men with works. In Pauline usage, however, justification is nearly always a forensic declaration of righteousness before God.

God bless,
c0ach

Okay, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Pax, since I responded to every passage you brought up, would you be willing to exegete Romans 4:1-6 for me?

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
–Romans 4:1-6

And if you could address the following questions, I’d appreciate it.

1. Do employers hand out paychecks to their workers and say, “here is a gift?” Or do they say “here is what you are owed?”
2. Is salvation a free gift of God?
3. This passage clearly shows justification (before God) of a man who does not work. No works of law are mentioned, just working period. Can a man who does not work be saved?
4. In the Catholic view, justification is an ongoing event. It is a process that transforms the Catholic into someone who is pleasing in God’s sight and merits salvation. In the Protestant view, justification is a one-time imputation of Christ’s righteousness onto a wicked sinner. Sanctification, which follows, is the act that changes the converted into God’s image…but the person is already saved. In your opinion, whose view more closely matches the phrase “the God who justifiees the wicked.”? (Romans 4:5) Can a Catholic be justified if he or she is “wicked?” How?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Coach,

I [coach] love and affirm the Athanasian Creed, Nicene Creed, the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

I decided to check out some of these creeds, I admit I have never heard of some of them.

So why do you need all these creeds? I havent checked them out yet, but I highly doubt that they are not in disagreement with eachother on some fundamental parts.

Whats the point of being saved by Christ, faith, grace, etc if someone is already “elected”. The above factors mean nothing, because God wanted them saved anyway.

Questions:
1)

5._____ God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance. grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc11.html

This stuff just kills me. The person can go on sinning, here he has the green light. This kills me that you guys are so blind to simple logic and rationality.

6._____ The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.(ibid)

Thats just flat out false, I kind of understand what the author is saying, but that is misleading and outright unfounded.

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.(grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc10.html)

These are the most egotistical words that some protestants speak of. There is effectively no point in the gospel, Christ, etc if you are already chosen and guaranteed everything even though you did nothing. Of course the ultimate dagger to this satanic lie is that everyone who professes these as true at the same time proclaim to be one of the lucky chosen few. Your blind, I dont know what else to say. Your killing me with these outright unhistorical, illogical, unChristian falsehoods. I do everything for you guys to just open you eyes to this insanity yet you go right back to your cubbie holes…

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Catholic Dude:

So why do you need all these creeds?

I don’t need them. I appreciate them as a list of doctrines that I believe are laid out in Scripture. They are aids to my theology, but not necessary.

Whats the point of being saved by Christ, faith, grace, etc if someone is already “elected”. The above factors mean nothing, because God wanted them saved anyway.

Because there’s a chronology here. Those who are elected are then regenerated via faith. Romans 8:29-30 lays out the “Golden Chain of Redemption.”

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
– Romans 8:29-30

Notice the order here?

Foreknew → Predestined → Called → Justified → Glorified

The chain is not broken.

This stuff just kills me. The person can go on sinning, here he has the green light. This kills me that you guys are so blind to simple logic and rationality.

Look, this goes against every human bone in my body, because it doesn’t seem right. But the Bible tells us that the Gospel is an offense and a stumbling block for a reason. I wouldn’t believe in election if the Bible didn’t teach it.

Just to correct a common misconception: those who have been converted to a true faith in Christ will not want to continue sinning, but being humans it is inevitable. Those with a true saving faith will not want to add to their debt to Christ when one fully understands the depth of their need for a savior.

2)Thats just flat out false, I kind of understand what the author is saying, but that is misleading and outright unfounded.

The confession quotes from two passages in the Bible that state the same thing. Did you look them up, and if so, why do you disagree?

1. These are the most egotistical words that some protestants speak of. There is effectively no point in the gospel, Christ, etc if you are already chosen and guaranteed everything even though you did nothing.

On the contrary, I would say it is egotistical to claim otherwise. Remember, it is Calvinists who say that we can do nothing, absolutely nothing, to effect our salvation. It’s not based on anything good in us, or on any works we have done. It is based on God’s good pleasure (Eph 1).

Those on the other side of the fence can boast because they were clever enough to figure out Christianity by themselves, and those who trust in a faith+works system can boast in their works. It is clearly more egotistical to feel that you had a good portion to do with your own salvation.

Your blind, I dont know what else to say. Your killing me with these outright unhistorical, illogical, unChristian falsehoods. I do everything for you guys to just open you eyes to this insanity yet you go right back to your cubbie holes…

I didn’t see one verse from the Bible quoted in your post. You should be wary when your theology is derived from the philosophy of men.

After all:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
–Proverbs 14:12

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desparately
wicked: who can know it?
–Jeremiah 17:9

Let us go to the Scriptures to decide between us.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[TPJCatholic]

Wow–this topic sure draws a lot of responses.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

TPJCatholic:

Wow–this topic sure draws a lot of responses.

No kidding, TPJ!

It sure makes the conversation hard to follow though. :whacky:

 

[Apolonio]

Coach,

I have not been following this post. In fact, I only read some of what you said. Let me respond to some of the things you said.

I’ll exegete Romans 4:

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.“Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”

In a translation James White used in The God Who Justifies, it says:

"For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about (but not before God).?(pg.205)

So we can say that he is speaking of the works of the Torah here. Even if that’s not the translation, Romans 4 is an extended argument on Romans 3. Paul is making an argument against Judaizers who says that you must be Jewish in order to be Christian. Professor Keith Rapa says:

“Paul does not intend these statements relative to boasting and work to be construed as a warning against attempting to appease God through ‘good works,’ as has been commonly interpreted. Rather, the argument here continues as above, that is, thatAbraham received righteousness outside the pale of covenant of circumcision (the foundation of the later Mosaic covenant), and thus outside the identity of Jew or Gentile, by his expressed faith in the person and promise of God.” (The Meaning of “Works of the Law” in Galatians and Romans, PeterLang Publishing, 2001, pg. 252)

W.D. Davies says:

"Moreover, in those contexts where the idea of Justification by Faith is central, we find that this is so only because of certain polemical necessities. It is only in those Epistles, namely, Galatians and Romans, where Paul is consciously presenting the claims of his Gospel over against those of Judaism that Justification by Faith is emphasized. Since Christ had replaced the Torah as the centre of his religious life, Paul in his controversy with those who insisted on the centrality of the old Torah and the necessity of obedience to it for all, had to find scriptural support for his position, the only kind of support that would carry conviction to his opponents. He didthis by appeal to two passages from Gen. 15.6 and Hab. 2.14 [sic; 2.4], on the basis of which he could argue that faith rather than obedience was, according to the Scripture itself, the basis of salvation. How little, however, Paul intended that Faith should be opposed to obedience will be clear when we recall his work as ethical didaskaloj and, in particular, how he had ascribed to Christ the significance of a New Torah to whose obedience he had been called.(Paul and Rabbinic Judaism: Some Rabbinic Elements in Pauline Theology. 3rd ed. (London: SPCK, 1970), pg. 222)

Paul held the covenant of Abraham higher than the Mosaic covenant and he believes that Jesus Christ was the climax or the telos of the OT covenants. Therefore we do not need to follow the Mosaic Law or be Jewish in order to be Christian. Christ is the new Adam. We have come to the point where we are living in a new creation. You asked:

“In the Catholic view, justification is an ongoing event. It is a process that transforms the Catholic into someone who is pleasing in God’s sight and merits salvation. In the Protestant view, justification is a one-time imputation of Christ’s righteousness onto a wicked sinner. Sanctification, which follows, is the act that changes the converted into God’s image…but the person is already saved. In your opinion, whose view more closely matches the phrase “the God who justifiees the wicked.”? (Romans 4:5) Can a Catholic be justified if he or she is “wicked?” How?”

I would answer the way St. Augustine did:

"What is grace? Something given -gratis-. What is given -gratis-? That which is bestowed rather than paid as owed. If it is owed, it is wages paid, not a gift graciously given. If it was truly owed, you have been good; but if, as is the case, you have been evil, but YOU DID BELIEVE IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE IMPIOUS * – and what is MEANT BY “He justifies the impious?” That HE MAKES THE IMPIOUS PIOUS – think what was rightly threatened you by the law, and what you have obtained by grace! But since you have gotten that grace of faith, you shall be just by faith; for the just man lives by faith [Rom 1:17; Hab 2:4]. And by LIVING FAITH you shall DESERVE WELL of God; and when you shall have deserved well of God by LIVING by faith, as REWARD you shall receive immortality and ETERNAL LIFE. AND THAT IS GRACE. Because of what MERIT, then, do you receive ETERNAL LIFE? BECAUSE OF GRACE. (Homilies on the Gospel of John 3:9)

Maybe we should start another thread on an exegesis on Romans?*

 

[dennisknapp]

c0achmcguirk:

Those on the other side of the fence can boast because they were clever enough to figure out Christianity by themselves, and those who trust in a faith+works system can boast in their works. It is clearly more egotistical to feel that you had a good portion to do with your own salvation.

God bless,
c0ach

I am Catholic and I never boast in my works. Where do you get that? I am saved through Christ, by Christ. All the works I do are through him.

Christ’s life is in me by grace. I live by this grace and do good works because of it. I am able to merit because God chose to give me freewill, which makes merit even possible. All the merits I do gain are gained in Christ, and for Christ, but through God’s grace they are my merits aswell. All good things come from God and return to Him. He has chosen to allow me to be a part of His plan and I am required to act in obedience to it.

As Apolonio has stated regarding Augustine,

“What is grace? Something given -gratis-. What is given -gratis-? That which is bestowed rather than paid as owed. If it is owed, it is wages paid, not a gift graciously given. If it was truly owed, you have been good; but if, as is the case, you have been evil, but YOU DID BELIEVE IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE IMPIOUS * – and what is MEANT BY “He justifies the impious?” That HE MAKES THE IMPIOUS PIOUS – think what was rightly threatened you by the law, and what you have obtained by grace! But since you have gotten that grace of faith, you shall be just by faith; for the just man lives by faith [Rom 1:17; Hab 2:4]. And by LIVING FAITH you shall DESERVE WELL of God; and when you shall have deserved well of God by LIVING by faith, as REWARD you shall receive immortality and ETERNAL LIFE. AND THAT IS GRACE. Because of what MERIT, then, do you receive ETERNAL LIFE? BECAUSE OF GRACE. (Homilies on the Gospel of John 3:9)”

I have can merit only because God allows and maintains it through His grace.

Peace*

 

[Mickey]

dennisknapp:

I am Catholic and I never boast in my works. Where do you get that? I am saved through Christ, by Christ. All the works I do are through him.

Christ’s life is in me by grace. I live by this grace and do good works because of it. I am able to merit because God chose to give me freewill, which makes merit even possible. All the merits I do gain are gained in Christ, and for Christ, but through God’s grace they are my merits aswell. All good things come from God and return to Him. He has chosen to allow me to be a part of His plan and I am required to act in obedience to it.

As Apolonio has stated regarding Augustine,

“What is grace? Something given -gratis-. What is given -gratis-? That which is bestowed rather than paid as owed. If it is owed, it is wages paid, not a gift graciously given. If it was truly owed, you have been good; but if, as is the case, you have been evil, but YOU DID BELIEVE IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE IMPIOUS * – and what is MEANT BY “He justifies the impious?” That HE MAKES THE IMPIOUS PIOUS – think what was rightly threatened you by the law, and what you have obtained by grace! But since you have gotten that grace of faith, you shall be just by faith; for the just man lives by faith [Rom 1:17; Hab 2:4]. And by LIVING FAITH you shall DESERVE WELL of God; and when you shall have deserved well of God by LIVING by faith, as REWARD you shall receive immortality and ETERNAL LIFE. AND THAT IS GRACE. Because of what MERIT, then, do you receive ETERNAL LIFE? BECAUSE OF GRACE. (Homilies on the Gospel of John 3:9)”

I have can merit only because God allows and maintains it through His grace.

Peace*

All true and knowledgeable Catholics should have this understanding, Dennis. I think Coach formulates his responses around his mistaken belief about what we believe.

 

[Cairisti]

Glad I finally found this thread. (Tried to post last night, but guess the forums were down).

Anyway, last night I had a lively discussion with my brother. He’s very much into OSAS, Faith alone, Bible alone (which he calls "Bible doctrine He goes to a non-denomination church called Berachah). Anyway, I asked him if that OSAS was true, then did he believe he could just go out and commit mass murder and still be saved. And his answer? Yes.:bigyikes: :banghead: Argh! Sadly, I’m not that good on apologetics. (And sorry, haven’t read this whole thread. )

 

[scylla]

I believe that the real problem belongs in the phrase
“Faith Alone”

This implies faith alone, but needs to be justified with a lot of explanation depending upon the theology of the type of Faith Alone doctrine someone is trying to defend.

Which means that then it isn’t really Faith Alone but first faith which is then manifested in works to prove that it is real Faith.
Or only Faith absolutely no works which means all those passages in the Bible that contradict that, mean a different kind of Faith.
Or Faith which compels someone to do works but they have the free will to do them or not, it doesn’t matter in the end.

This drove me nuts when I was in Calvary Chapel, why can’t we just call it what it is. Rather than calling it something and modifying the thinking to justify the words Faith Alone? The only reason to do this to defend the words Faith Alone, which aren’t anywhere in the Bible as an affirmation of the belief.

I am free in the Catholic Church because I can call it what it is, without mental gymnastics.

Grace Alone
My Faith, Working with Love, but not of my own boasting (no devout Catholic thinks that) only by the Grace of God.

I am not a meat robot, I have the ability to follow Gods will or not, this doesn’t invalidate my belief.

Oops can’t post anymore my wife is calling me to get off the computer.
God Bless

 

[Pax]

c0ach,

You quoted several passages concerning Christians bearing fruit. It is your contention that if they do not bear fruit then they are not true Christians and were never saved. I have recently been in a discussion with a Calvinist who made the same arguments to me and I’ll give you the same response that I gave him. First of all, none of the verses you quoted “ever” say that the individuals refered to are “not true believers.”

You spoke of those that fall away and say that they never had “true faith.” Actually, scripture never expresses the problem of those that fall away as not having “true faith.” This is a term that I frequently hear and read but it is not biblical and does not adequately address the issue of those that fall away. To support your contention you used 1 John 2:19 which says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.” This verse actually refers to false teachers and those that are referred to in the verse are spoken of in the context of the “anti-Christ.”[see verse 18] This is pattern that has been followed by all heretics.

Your reference to Luke 8:13 which is the parable of the Sower, actually contradicts the idea of a “true believer” versus a “pseudo(?) believer.” The verse you quoted says, “…they believe for awhile,…” It does not indicate that they were not “true believers.” It would be better to say that they were true believers for awhile or just call everyone who believes “a believer.” Believers can endure to the end or they can abandoned the true faith they once had. Verse fourteen of the parable is also instructive. It says, “And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.” Notice how their faith is not questioned. Instead they are overcome by the riches and pleasures of life and their fruit does not mature. Are there true believers and pseudo believers? Scripture really doesn’t make this distinction and I think this is important. I believe that suggesting that “those kinds of believers never had a true faith” is non scriptural and is adding to scripture. These people were initially justified and had a true faith. Unfortunately, the abandoned the faith, they did not endure, they did not bare fruit, and they fell away from the truth that had been given to them.

You also made an effort to dismiss verses like 2 Peter 2:20-22 which reads “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.” You claimed that “This passage in no way teaches that a justified, elect person can fall away from righteousness. Why? Because knowing “the way of righteousness” does not mean one is saved.” Please read the passage again in its entirety. Peter is first of all talking to Christians of equal standing with him in the faith and he is giving them a warning. Please notice that the individuals he is talking about "have escaped the difilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. An unjustifed person has not and cannot escape the defilements of the world. Moreover, Peter uses the analogy to the sow that is washed. This refers to the washing of regeneration. Peter is indeed refering to Christians. You are wrong about this verse and you are trying to make it conform to your doctrine rather than examining your doctrine by what the scripture says.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

The author of the book of Hebrews is also talking to believers (or true believers if you prefer) when he gives a warning. In Hebrews 2:1 it says “Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” These are Christians that have been justified and they are warned not to drift away or they will suffer the eternal consequences of hell. In Hebrews 6:4-8 it says, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” Clearly these are justified Christians because they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet they fall into apostasy. Once in apostasy they are done for.

There are many other verses in scripture that make it clear that we can lose our salvation. In Romans 11:2 it says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, **provided ** you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." You cannot spin the meaning of this verse. The message is clear and the context is clear.

Calvinists claim that those that are justified are justified only once and that they will “as a complete package” persevere until the end. The above verses indicate otherwise. But if that isn’t enough lets move on to Hebrews 10:26-27 where it says, “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” The author then goes on in verses 28-31, “A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Once again this warning is made to those who have already been saved. If all of those that were saved were all going to persevere then there is no point in making these warnings.

 

[Pax]

I apologize for being long winded but I’m still not done.

We know from scripture that God does not change[Malachi 3:6]. God provides for us through His convenants but He does not change. The New Covenant does not abolish the Old Covenant. Instead the New fulfills the Old. In Ezekiel 18:21-32 it talks about iniquity and righteousness and how a man can turn from evil to good and live, and how the righteous can turn from righteousness to evil and therefore die. It shows how those that are just can turn from God. This applies in the New Covenant as well. In the book of Revelation Chapter 2 Jesus speaks in warning to John about the Churches. He is speaking about believers and what He has against them. Jesus even says “repent….If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”[Rev 2:5]. To remove their lampstand means that they will be destroyed. They will join the damned. Jesus makes this kind of warning and demand for repentance from all of the seven Churches. Jesus uses the word “repent” eight times in addressing the churches.

Paul warns believers over and over about falling back into sin and licentiousness and that if they do they will suffer the consequences of eternal punishment[see Romans 11:20, Romans 2:3-11, 1 Timothy:18-20, Philippians 2:12, Eph 5:5-6, Col 1:21-23, Gal 6:6-9, Gal 5:19-21] I could go on but these verses should be sufficient. If this is not enough scripture for you then go back and read all the quotes I gave that refute OSAS. Many of them have an application to losing your justification.

There are examples in scripture of people that were believers and then fell away in various ways. Ananias and Sapphira are described in the book of Acts and it is clear that they are part of the Christian community of believers. We know precisely from scripture what happened to them and why. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter says “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Ananias and Sapphira did an evil deed by letting Satan into their hearts and lying to the Holy Spirit. Consider the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts and what these two believers must have witnessed before they lied to the Holy Spirit. They turned away from God out of sinful desires and lied to the Holy Spirit. They were justified and then lost their justification.

The story about Simon the Magician is also helpful in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again Simon is not described as a believer without root or any other such thing. We are told in Acts 8:13 “Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.”[Acts 8:20-22] This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We have another example in scripture that is outlined in Paul’s condemnation of Alexander and Hymenaeus. Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:19-20 that, “By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.” Please notice that Paul indicates that a number of people have made shipwreck of their faith and he names two of them. These folks are Christian believers that have wrecked their faith because they rejected conscience. It does not say that they lacked root or were not true believers. It says that they wrecked their faith by rejecting conscience. It is apparent that faith can be ruined.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Judas is another example of a believer that perished. Judas is never referred to as a pseudo believer or someone that lacks root. Judas is described as a traitor. This is very important. He believed in Jesus and he betrayed his Lord and Savior. Please note that at the marriage feast of Cana Jesus worked his first miracle and scripture tells us that His disciples believed in Him[John 2:11]. Clearly, Judas had faith. Jesus picked the twelve apostles and in Matthew 10:1 it says Jesus, “….called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” Even Judas was given the authority over unclean spirits and the power of healing. Judas was a believer and he is never described as not having any root or not being a true believer. Instead he is described many times as a “betrayer” and even as having stolen money from the common purse. According to scripture there is only one time that Judas did not believe Jesus. In John Chapter 6:64 Judas is pointed out as one of those that did not believe Jesus when He promised to give us His precious body and blood to have as true food and true drink. Many others did not believe what Jesus said in the Discourse on the Bread of Life and they left him. Today non-Catholic Christians also reject the words of Jesus from John 6 and do not believe that Jesus would give us His flesh and blood as true food and true drink. Does this mean that they too are all without root and do not have a true faith? If not, then Judas was just as much a believer as any one else. One thing we do know for sure is that Judas was a traitor.

 

[st_felicity]

WOW Pax…you sure missed the forums while they were down didn’t you… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_7.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_7.gif

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Pax,

I second the “WOW”. You did an exellent job.

I would only add in the part about Jesus and the Father speaking of striking people out of the book of life. Who would have their names inscribed in the book of life but the “saved” or “believers”? Yet God implies that the wicked and the non victors will be scratched out of the book of life.

The Protestants like to use the book of life as their assurance of eternal salvation. They fail to realize that our spiritual God is Omni Present to the whole of physical time. While the book of life spiritually existed before physical creation, it is spiritually written upon judgement day. Along the way some people are scratched out of the book of life. The book of life exists in the spiritual realm which is outside of physical time and omni present to all of physical time. The book of life is an extention of God’s spritual omni vision to the whole of physical time yet God really does allow man free will until death.

The point is that some “believers” or “the saved” came into the spiritual book of life (salvation) but were again scratched out and thrown into the pool of fire (the opposite of salvation) due to their changing conduct in physical life.

**NAB EXO 32:30 The Atonement. **

On the next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a grave sin. I will go up to the LORD, then; perhaps I may be able to make atonement for your sin.” So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Ah, this people has indeed committed a grave sin in making a god of gold for themselves! If you would only *forgive *their sin! If you will not, then strike me out of the book that you have written."

The LORD answered, "Him only who has sinned against me will I strike out of my book. Now, go and lead the people whither I have told you. My angel will go before you. When it is time for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." Thus the LORD smote the people for having had Aaron make the calf for them.

NAB REV 3:5

"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and** I will never erase his name from the book of life** but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. God’s eternal book of those who live eternally. LUK 10:20 REV 13:8 REV 17:8 REV 20:12 REV 20:15 REV 21:27

NAB REV 20:12

Lastly among the scrolls, the book of the living was opened. The dead were judged according to their conduct as recorded on the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then death and the nether world gave up thier dead. Each person was judged according to his conduct. Then death and the nether world were hurled into the pool of fire which is the second death; anyone whose name was not found inscribed in the book of the living was hurled into this pool of fire.

NAB ISA 57:21

No peace for the wicked! says my God.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

P.S. I really like the name Pax. We named our daughter Paxtyn and call her Pax for short. Peace

 

[Pax]

c0achmcguirk:

Again, not a problematic passage. Calvinists are not ashamed to state that a faith without works is not true faith. This is part and parcel of justification.

The word (dikaioo Gr.) does not always mean a forensic declaration. It also can mean “to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered.” The words meaning must be determined by its context, not some blind assertion that the word means the same thing in every passage.

Paul clearly speaks of Justification “before God” and “in His sight” (cf. Romans 3:20, 4:6), whereas James is talking about justification before men:

c0ach,

Your take on James is nonsense. The idea that James is talking about justification before men is something someone taught you. It is not in the text either explicitly or implicitly and it takes a real twist of logic to even suggest such a thing. To support your argument you pointed out that James says, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." This statement by the apostle does not establish justification before men. The statement is used to point out the difference between saving faith and dead faith and how the difference is visible. James uses the word “justifiy.” He also makes reference to Abraham’s faith just as Paul does. Not only that, James says that faith without works cannot save a person[James 2:14]. James knows what the word justification/justify means and he discusses it in terms of faith and works. Justification before men, if there were such a thing, would have absolutely nothing to do with salvation, but salvation is exactly what James is talking about. Finally, look at verse 26 which says, " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." James compares faith and works to the body and spirit. You cannot separate faith and works anymore than you can separate the body and spirit. If you separate the body and spirit you have a dead human being, and if separtate faith and works you have a dead faith that cannot save you.

Faith itself is not only a gift but it is also a work. The same is true for the supernatural gift of love. This is made clear in the following verses of scripture: In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. Notice that in Rev 2:4-5 Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first." These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father **your work of faith and labor of love ** and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”

John 6:27-28
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

 

[Pax]

c0ach,

You wanted my take on Roman 4:1-6 which reads:

*“WHAT THEN shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:”

This verse like all verses in the bible needs to be understood in the full context of scripture. The Judaizers were willing to accept Jesus as one more element of the old law. They believed, however, that you could not be saved without circumcision among other things. Paul is trashing their teaching and points out a number of things about Abraham. Paul demonstrates that Abraham’s justification was a gift of God. Please note that Abraham is described as having been justified on three different occassions. We see these occassions identified in Genesis 12:1-4 when Abraham left his home country for the promised land, in 15:6 when he believed the promise concerning his descendents, and in Genesis 22 when he offered Isaac upon the altar as pointed out by James[see James 2:21-23]. Justification is not a one time deal. And please remember what James says, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,” Examine each of the instances where Abraham is justified. Abraham was actually doing something. Believing is something we do by the grace of God.

Paul not only points out that justification is a gift and is not earned but he also says, “For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil,”[Romans 2:6-8]. These verses certainly indicate that works have something to do with eternal life.

The whole point of Romans is to show us that “everything” is by way of God’s grace. While in the flesh there is nothing a person can do [good works or works of law] that can justify them before God. The regenerated man, however, receives grace and is justified, he receives grace and is sanctified, and he receives grace to do good works. This is how Paul contrasts living in the flesh vs. living in the spirit. Nothing is accomplished by living in the flesh (i.e. human effort). Instead everything is accomplished by God in the spirit (i.e. grace). Now think about this. It is all the work of God within us. Faith and works in the regenerated man are the works of the Father and are as James puts it like the body and spirit. They can’t be separated. Once justified by God’s grace as pure gift our faith must include works or it is a dead faith and will not save us.*

 

[Pax]

st.felicity and Steven Merten,

Thanks for the kind words.

Steven your remarks on the book of life are right on target and your quotation from Revelation concerning the “victor” is one that I love. In fact this reference to “he who conquers or victor” shows up seven times during Jesus remarks concerning the seven churches. It also shows up one more time in Rev 21:7 where it says, “He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.”

It just doesn’t get much clearer than that.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Pax,

Jesus tells us that the prostitutes and tax collectors are going to heaven because they put faith in John the Baptist and believed in John the Baptist. To a person with the phylosophy “accept Jesus as your personal saviour” this looks like Jesus is teaching heresy. However what Jesus is saying is that those who do what John, who was filled with the Holy Spirit and is teaching the will of God, tells them to do are doing works of faith and belief in God.

To believe in God means to do what He tells you to do. Whether it is God through Moses, the Holy Spirit through John or the Son telling us what God wills us to do, to then do what they tell you to do is to put faith and belief in God. It is those who do what God wills them to do who have faith and go to heaven through Jesus. To simply say that you have faith and believe in Jesus but then not do what He tells you to do will only bring you to damnation. One puts faith and belief in Jesus by doing what He tells us to do.

NAB MAT 21:28 Parable of the Two Sons.

“What do you think of this case? There was a man who had two sons. He approached the elder and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ The son replied, ‘I am on my way, sir’ ; but he never went. Then the man came to his second son and said the same thing. This son said in reply, ‘No, I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. Which of the two did what the father wanted?” They said, “The second.” Jesus said to them, “I assure you that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you. **When John came preaching a way of holiness, you put no faith **in him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did believe in him. Yet even when you saw that, you did not repent and believe in him.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com