Once Saved--Always Saved

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HilaryJ:
What is Magesterium?

I would rather consult the Bible than man’s interpretation

Exactly.

I believe that truth cannot be altered either. But why over the centruies were there so many councils if things weren’t added and changed? These things were clearly accpted at the times of these councils.

Amen on no women priests as per first Tim. Why not contraception? Can’t God control this anyway. If he wanted someone to conceive he could cause it, after all he has done so from the beginning of time.

I’m not trying to spread falsities about the Catholic church, I am just trying to understand. Thank you for your help.
This is off topic. Please go to thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=36091

This thread is dealing with this issue.

Peace
 
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ppcpilot:
The Magesterium is the 2000 years of inspired Church teaching, starting with the apostles until now. The Church can trace its roots with apostolic succession all the way back to Peter, as the first Pope.

As far as consulting the bible than man’s interpretation, guess what? When you consult the book, you are interpreting it for yourself ie…the same thing as ‘man’s interpretation.’ How do you know what you are interpreting is what was really meant by the passage?
 
As a Catholic, I believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. Once we are saved (are in Heaven), we are always saved (always in Heaven).

ILO
 
Coach-

About James White, just listen to the debate between him and Father Pacwa on faith alone. It is free online to listen to. They list the credentials at the beginning of the debate. One thing you will see is that James plays to win the crowd not the debate. Pacwa lays out a clear and solid claim about faith alone. James has to take out his bag of tricks and dance around the issues. When he gets stuck he panders to the people’s emotions and doubt. Pacwa knows this and does his best. At the very least a free thinking nonCatholic has to acknowledge that the CC position has merit. Jame White is no dummy, he can turn stuff back in a persons face and embarrass them in a debate. But that doesnt mean that truth prevailed. Pacwa was calm and polite.
 
I suggest that people go to Whites page. aomin.com you will see that he bitterly hates Catholics more than any religion. He is so biased against them that all his “apologetics” become nothing more than whipping boys. His position is weak. But in the end hes just another salesman pastoring his own store in Phoenix.

The two factors that most Prots adhere to are:
1)Everyone in the world deserves their very own Bible.
2)Everything they hear or read is relative to what they feel the Bible is saying. If you dont like it start your own Church.

EVERY SOLA-S PROTESTANT BELIEVES THIS DEEP DOWN. These factors represent this, self centeredness, and unwilling to admit defeat. No looking for truth, no thinking about another angle. As people on CA have said 1000 times, most of the people come here to sling mud, their eyes and ears are closed to reason. They think the CC is Satan on earth and that they hold the truth. The CC accepts them more than they accept the CC, it is a one way street This is plain fact.

Its like im in the south pacific, thousands of islands in the middle of nowhere each living in their own world. A lot of them were formed recently by undersea volcanoes. But if you look at the global scale you see Australia, so big it is its own continent. Which land represents Catholics and which one represents Protestants?
 
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TPJCatholic:
Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?
If the idea of “being saved” was a one-time event in the life of a Christian, then maybe the OSAS idea works. But Scripture clearly indicates that salvation is a process that is spread over one’s lifetime. There is an ongoing aspect to salvation as well. Look at 1 Peter 1:8-9: “…Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, RECEIVING…the salvation of your souls.” Besides the idea of “being saved” and “working on your salvation” there is also a future idea that salvation is something that will come to the believer in the future. Look at Romans 13:11: “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our SALVATION IS NEARER than when we first believed.” So salvation is a lifetime process, not a singular event. Christ guarantees our salvation as long as we respond to our faith through obedience and love.
God bless…
 
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edwinG:
Hi Maggie,
I may not have expressed my self well. I did not intend to mean that the catholic church should throw in the towel and become like every other church. Using the catholic church as an example, I suggested the catholic join with any other church which had basic Christian beliefs and to do this by chance. The same could apply to all other churches.
Regarding all of these issues. My answer is still the Holy Spirit. I have faith in Him and His leading. He would not let me go into sin without warning me. I have the choice and may choose to go into sin, but He will definitely warn me and more than once. HE had to warn me 4 times to give up smoking. But only once to give up alcohol on a daily basis. I know I can still smoke and I can still drink, but I have chosen not to. If circumstances arise where it is desirable for me to do either of these activities I will, knowing I am not sinning. I am secure in His leading. I still sin because I am willfull and ignore Him sometimes. But it hurts me and I am sorry when I do.
I believe in the role of the church and this role is to love one another and to support one another and to spread His word. It’s role is not to supplant the Holy Spirit.
When people are controlled by fear from its church then that leads to hypocrisy. Many people are led by peer pressure instead of love.
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
grow in Christ
edwinG
My dear friend Edwin,

It is so rare to see someone who is so full of faith as yourself that you have been able to commit yourself to making those changes in your life. That really is fantastic.

However, I must take you to task over one of your statements, and hopefully clear up any further misunderstanding. You believe that the Holy Spirit guides you. I do not dispute what you are saying. However, I have a question for you: why is it that if all of these denominations were led by the Holy Spirit as they claim, are they doing Satan’s work by promoting the culture of death? There are churches whose leadership endorse all of the things that I have listed, and some have gone as far as ordaining a homosexual who has left his spouse to go into a homosexual relationship as a Bishop. Can you honestly say that the Holy Spirit is present when this kind of thing happens?

By the way, I believe that the Holy Spirit is our guide, that He guides us in understanding the Scripture, but not on our own initiative. I believe that when a preacher gives us a homily explaining some mystery in the Scriptures that it is the Holy Spirit that is guiding his words too. That does not mean that I believe in the likes of Benny Hinn or others of a similar ilk. I am speaking about good solid Christian instruction on how to lead our daily lives so that we continue in faith and do the will of God at the same time.

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
That is the problem with dealing with a certain type of Evangelical. What comes out is just a regurgitation of claims that are easily refuted especially when it comes to the missing books from the Protestant Bible.
Well, if you actually tried to “easily refute” my arguments I’d take this statement seriously. But you keep skipping over my arguments and call my questions stupid. With the claims you are making, shouldn’t you actually interact with my arguments?
I have other fish to fry than take notice of someone who has not even bothered to read the books in question and then quotes reasons that are not in the slightest bit legitimate as alleged proof of exclusion.
How do you know I haven’t read them? If they aren’t legitimate, at least tell me why. Arguing with Ipse dixits (it’s true because I say so) don’t impress me.
My response is, tell me why there is such a fear of the regular congregation reading these books?
Fear? Where and by whom? Are you afraid people will read People magazine? I mean, it’s not read in your church is it?
Now how about we get back onto the topic. This is getting to be like a slippery eel, going this way and that, but never getting anywhere.
I guarantee this thread would stay on one topic if the topic wasn’t changed every time someone didn’t want to interact with my questions. 😉

God bless,
c0ach
 
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c0achmcguirk:
Well, if you actually tried to “easily refute” my arguments I’d take this statement seriously. But you keep skipping over my arguments and call my questions stupid. With the claims you are making, shouldn’t you actually interact with my arguments?

How do you know I haven’t read them? If they aren’t legitimate, at least tell me why. Arguing with Ipse dixits (it’s true because I say so) don’t impress me.

Fear? Where and by whom? Are you afraid people will read People magazine? I mean, it’s not read in your church is it?

I guarantee this thread would stay on one topic if the topic wasn’t changed every time someone didn’t want to interact with my questions. 😉

God bless,
c0ach
I would be happy to deal with your arguments at:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=463930#post463930

I private messaged you about it earlier.

Peace
 
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MaggieOH:
I have seen the list of alleged credentials but how do I know that they are true?
How do you know they are false? Has Dr. White lied about anything on this page or are you bent on tearing him down?
I do not know that but I can tell you that there are people on the Internet who seem to have a problem with the veracity of those qualifications.
Yeah, there are people on the Internet who think Elvis is still alive.

Again, you libelled Dr. White publicly. Are you willing to document your charges? I asked you some very important questions in Post #118 on this thread. You’ve skipped over them (again). I’ve answered nearly all your questions. Could you do me the same courtesy?
Second you have not responded to my one and only question that I want answered. I will not accept any other diversionary tactic.
I did respond, and it wasn’t a diversionary tactic. A diversionary tactic would be someone quoting an entire post and then making some general comments that are completely unrelated…all the while ignoring the direct questions asked in the post.
I want it straight. Does Mr White teach the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, which is a doctrine that was believed and taught by early Christians and then up to and including Calvin. Luther, Wesley, Zwingli and other early Reformers. If he does not teach this doctrine then he is spreading the Neo-Helvidius heresy. The onus is on you to prove that Mr.White is orthodox in his teachings of Christianity.
I’ll answer again. First off, you’re begging the question. You are assuming the perpetual virginity of Mary first and will not allow anyone to hold a contrary view. You are asking me to prove that a Protestant (who doesn’t believe in an infallible magisterium nor believes in sacred tradition) believes a Roman Catholic doctrine.

I’ll do it when you prove to me that you hold to sola fide and sola Scriptura. Oh wait…it’s silly to make you prove to me that you hold to my doctrines isn’t it? It’s begging the question.

For the rest of my answer, re-visit Post #127. Sorry if you don’t think I’m answering your question…I’m doing the best I can. 🙂
I guess I will not hold my breath waiting for a response that proves Mr White to be orthodox.
Yeah, still waiting on proof that you believe in the 5 solas, too. 🙂

God bless,
c0ach
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Oudave is not Catholic he is church of Christ:nope:
I have to point out a very bad use of the Scripture relating to Matthew 22:29 and Exodus 3:6

The difference in what Jesus said by saying “Have you not read what God said to you” and those who say God said when referring to the words of St. Paul or any other of the New Testament writers is that God did say to Moses: I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The way in which Jesus made the statement transcends time because the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Scribes were readers of the Scriptures and the people of Israel, of Judea are the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as of Moses, so the words applied equally to the same generation as Jesus as well as to the people being led out of Egypt by Moses.

That particular quote from Jesus does not imply as someone wanted to imply that this could be seen to being tantamount to worshipping the Bible. The difference is that Jesus is stating what God actually stated to Moses, whereas those who quote St. Paul do not make the correct distinction that St. Paul is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but also used his own human reasoning and interpretations.

This is why when Fundamentalists make such an error it is easy for Catholics to cringe and say, “that sounds like he is holding the Bible up to be God”.

Besides, the Bible did not exist at the time of Jesus. Bible means a collection of books or manuscripts. The correct terminology is the Scripture.

MaggieOH
 
Catholic Dude:
Coach-

About James White, just listen to the debate between him and Father Pacwa on faith alone. It is free online to listen to. They list the credentials at the beginning of the debate. One thing you will see is that James plays to win the crowd not the debate.
Okay, could you give some examples? Like is he doing backflips and stuff? What is “playing to the crowd” in debate? The audience is given flowsheets and they are taught how to analyze the debates. Even if someone can shoot fireworks out their eyeballs during the debate would fare poorly if he didn’t address the key arguments of his opponent.
Pacwa lays out a clear and solid claim about faith alone. James has to take out his bag of tricks and dance around the issues. When he gets stuck he panders to the people’s emotions and doubt.
Where is this at in the debate? Could you give a synopsis or better yet transcribe it for me?
Jame White is no dummy, he can turn stuff back in a persons face and embarrass them in a debate. But that doesnt mean that truth prevailed. Pacwa was calm and polite.
I will give respect to Catholic apologists who I think do a good job. I think Jimmy Akin is very good, Patrick Madrid is good, Matatics can be good at times. Pacwa is great. I think these men all believe sincerely they are right, and they are not trying to deceive anyone. I know the same is true for Dr. White.

People often paint this really nasty picture of him and just drag him through the mud. He lives meagerly, strains to be accurate historically and Scripturally…and studies nearly non-stop. But I rarely see a Catholic say James White knows his stuff. If a Catholic does compliment him, it’s usually something like “he’s a great debater who takes advantage of his opponent to make him look stupid.” It’s never a compliment on his debate preparation, his knowledge of his opponents position, etc. Oh well, I can understand the Catholic frustration with him…just not their oftimes unChristian attitude toward him. Check out the new James White thread on this board…it’s a mudfest chock full of accusations without evidence.

God bless,
c0ach
 
Catholic Dude:
I suggest that people go to Whites page. aomin.com you will see that he bitterly hates Catholics more than any religion.
Please substantiate this claim. Does disagreement equal hate? Do you hate me Catholic Dude? You continually take contrary positions against me–does that mean you “hate” me?
He is so biased against them that all his “apologetics” become nothing more than whipping boys.
I have no idea what this even means.
His position is weak. But in the end hes just another salesman pastoring his own store in Phoenix.
Nor do I know what this means. Because he sells stuff from his ministry? He’s not allowed to support himself or his ministry without be accused of being a salesman? Doesn’t Catholic Answers sell stuff? Are they pastoring their store? Will you be a gentleman and stop the unwarranted ad-Hominem? (Shakes head in disbelief).

And you accused him of hatred. :rolleyes:
The two factors that most Prots adhere to are:
1)Everyone in the world deserves their very own Bible.
2)Everything they hear or read is relative to what they feel the Bible is saying. If you dont like it start your own Church.

EVERY SOLA-S PROTESTANT BELIEVES THIS DEEP DOWN.
I don’t and I don’t know any SS Protestant who does. Can you quote from a SS Protestant website or SS Protestant confession that states these things?

God bless,
c0ach
 
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mtr01:
Edwin, hope you don’t mind if I jump in here, but regarding all of these “rules”. One thing you have to remember about the Catholic Church is that it is a universal Church, and not a loose commection of individual parishes. What that means is that as a Catholic, I should be able to go into any Catholic Church, anywhere in the world and have the same Worship experience as I do in my home parish. Thus, there have to be norms and guidelines to ensure this. It’s not about restricting what we can do, or micromanagement, but to insure the uniformity of the Church throughout the world.

Hope this helps!
Hi Mtr01,
No I don’t mind your jumping in. Feel free any time any where. I sometimes think that that was how the church services were meant to be held. When someone received a message from the Holy Spirit it was his duty to pass this on to the gathering. Today we are so formalised.
But I understand what you are saying and had not taken it into consideration previously. Using a poor example , it is like going to McDonalds or K mart. No matter where you are you feel comfortable and in familar surroundings. This is something we all cherish. But I know that Jesus likes us out of our comfort zones. I do not know how often but I do know He does not like us becoming entrenched. I see this in my own life, but I dont know yet the exact pattern or its frequency. I just accept what comes along, trusting in Him.
walk in love
Come Holy Jesus, come
edwinG
 
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MaggieOH:
The difference in what Jesus said by saying “Have you not read what God said to you” and those who say God said when referring to the words of St. Paul or any other of the New Testament writers is that God did say to Moses: I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
But Moses was responsible for writing it down, right? He still had to interpret what God said and then write it down (using your position).
That particular quote from Jesus does not imply as someone wanted to imply that this could be seen to being tantamount to worshipping the Bible.
You mean that someone is yourself, right? It is not my position that Jesus was worshipping the Bible. You’re the one who claims that saying “God says” when referring to the inspired Bible is worshipping it…not me.
The difference is that Jesus is stating what God actually stated to Moses, whereas those who quote St. Paul do not make the correct distinction that St. Paul is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but also used his own human reasoning and interpretations.
You keep bringing up Paul, but you don’t deal with the specific passages that deal with him. Here goes post #3. Maybe this time you’ll actually answer my direct questions… 🙂

And what are we to do with what Peter tells us:

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
–2 Peter 1:19-21

This verse says it all. It talks about Prophets, their understanding, and how God is involved in the writing of Scripture. I hate to tell you this Maggie, but this doesn’t look good for your position. 😦

"…just as **our dear brother Paul **also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, **as they do the other **Scriptures, to their own destruction. "
–2 Pet 3:15-16

Wow Peter calls Paul’s writings Scripture…just like the Old Testament. But you say Paul’s writings are different than the Old Testament…who can settle this dispute? The Bible or Maggie?

And Paul certainly felt his writings were inspired:

"I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather,** I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ**. "
–Gal 1:11-12

But if he interpreted it before he wrote it down, how could it be something that isn’t made up…and how could he say he received it by revelation from Jesus Christ?

And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
–1 Thess 2:13

Hmmm, the “word of God” not the “word of men.” Interesting, don’t you think?

If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
–1 Cor 14:37

Okay, you were saying about quoting St. Paul using the words “God said?”…
Besides, the Bible did not exist at the time of Jesus. Bible means a collection of books or manuscripts. The correct terminology is the Scripture.
:nope: How is this relevant? Could you elaborate?

PS: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE interact with all my arguments! Don’t just pick one to the exclusion of all the others. I’m working on my side of this dialogue…
 
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ILO:
As a Catholic, I believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. Once we are saved (are in Heaven), we are always saved (always in Heaven).

ILO
Hi ILO,
I also agree once saved always saved, but I would like you to remember this.
In the parables , many, many times people were cast out of the kingdom of heaven. Lucifer was also in heaven. There is one truth, amongst the seeming confusion.
Deuteronomy 30:15 " See, I have set before you today, life and good, death and evil."
Deuteronomy 30:19"… therefore choose life that both you and your descendants may live."
There is the narrow pathway or the broad path, Choose life.
Will I go to bed at 10 or watch TV till 12. Which is the narrow path. IT may be of no consequence so it does not matter or it may to some individuals. IT is an individual matter and each individual knows which is his narrow path. Of course choosing the narrow path is not easy so that is why we have the comforter. He will strengthen us so we can have victory,not on the immediate asking but in His time. We have to be patient and just keep hating the sin.
Confusing scripture also has a narrow path. Which answer to scripture fullfills Gods will in Love and mercy and forgiveness. Choose that meaning , choose life. Scripture seems to give us choices. Choose God’s way
Walk in love
edwinG.
 
(Joshua):
Once saved always saved :hmmm: what ever happened to the words of Jesus, when He said that we must take up our cross and follow Him.

And those that don’t aren’t worthy of Him, the cross of Jesus redeemed us, but that doesn’t mean we won’t have to carry our daily crosse’s.
Anyway can anyone tell me why we have crosse’s if all it took was for Jesus to die for us.
So we can all sit back, comit adultery, fornication of every kind, all types of sins of the flesh, but it’s doesn’t matter, “once saved always saved”.

That kind of teaching is sending many souls to hell, and I wouldn’t listen to it for 2 seconds.

So can any of you “Once saved always saved” preachers tell me why we have to carry our own cross, wouldn’t the cross of Jesus suffice ?
Hi Joshua,
Yes , I believe that once saved always saved. I believe this because I have faith in His ability. If you dont believe it than I guess it doesn’t apply to you and you can be lost. Me I dont want to be lost. Sure, now that I believe , He starts pruning me for good works and cuts away those parts of my personality or nature that are tied to the flesh. I have to pick up my cross and Yes I have tribulations in my life, but I trust in Him to deliver me. I just say Yes Abba Yes Abba.
I believe that not believing OSAS is sending souls to hell. Because your faith in Him is lacking. You may even resort to believing in your own works.
I hope this helps Jos,
walk in love
edwinG
 
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MaggieOH:
My dear friend Edwin,

It is so rare to see someone who is so full of faith as yourself that you have been able to commit yourself to making those changes in your life. That really is fantastic.

However, I must take you to task over one of your statements, and hopefully clear up any further misunderstanding. You believe that the Holy Spirit guides you. I do not dispute what you are saying. However, I have a question for you: why is it that if all of these denominations were led by the Holy Spirit as they claim, are they doing Satan’s work by promoting the culture of death? There are churches whose leadership endorse all of the things that I have listed, and some have gone as far as ordaining a homosexual who has left his spouse to go into a homosexual relationship as a Bishop. Can you honestly say that the Holy Spirit is present when this kind of thing happens?

By the way, I believe that the Holy Spirit is our guide, that He guides us in understanding the Scripture, but not on our own initiative. I believe that when a preacher gives us a homily explaining some mystery in the Scriptures that it is the Holy Spirit that is guiding his words too. That does not mean that I believe in the likes of Benny Hinn or others of a similar ilk. I am speaking about good solid Christian instruction on how to lead our daily lives so that we continue in faith and do the will of God at the same time.

Maggie
Hi Maggie,
Regarding all the problems of other churches. No where in the bible does it tell us to condemn others. Yes in our own community of christians, where we have frequent contact we should be a rock for each other, supporting, edifying and even chastising where necessary. So let us all look to ourselves, and walk in love. We have to be like Him, if we want to live in Him, in Christ. Look how God operates. He continuallly pores out love, everything He does is done because of love. Shouldnt we be the same. We cant live in Him if we want to condemn some branch of Christianity. Trust in Christ and in the Holy Spirit
How I love these 4 words from James2:13 Mercy triumphs over judgment"
So lets be merciful so that we are not judged by our own yardstick. I for one will need to be judged mercifully by Him. Every day I tried not to be judgmental.
I am going to start a thread.
Take that scripture above and ask who today would you regard as the unsaved Paul.
Walk in love
edwinG
 
I cannot believe that you guys are silly enough to come in here and try to use Whites rhetoric to attack Catholic belief. I’ve read his stuff and it’s like he’s ignorant of Catholic teaching. Don’t give me this stuff about him NOT hating the Catholic Church because he makes a living out of it. No there’s nothing wrong with selling stuff to support himself, but when it comes to religion one has a moral obligation to tell the truth. I have heard so much misbegotten rhetoric from some of you guys that I could puke. Allegations of a false gospel from a guy who CLAIMS he was Catholic but shows poor knowlege of what we believe, then lays into the church with the same old ignorant rhetoric that we hear day in and day out and answer day in and day out.

It’s not that we don’t have good Biblical and historical answers…it’s that you REFUSE to accept these answers and let it go. It all comes down to the old saying that you cannot prove to anyone that you are a good person, because all they have to say is that they don’t believe it and all your efforts are for naught. All they have to do is just raise the bar all the higher. And this is exactly what you do.

Look…let’s get something straight here. This is a forum for discussion of Catholic beliefs …NOT a platform for attacks and evangelism from non-Catholics. If that’s your goal…I suggest that you re-read these rule and reconsider being here:

4. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
 
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edwinG:
I have to pick up my cross and Yes I have tribulations in my life, but I trust in Him to deliver me. I just say Yes Abba Yes Abba.
I believe that not believing OSAS is sending souls to hell. Because your faith in Him is lacking. You may even resort to believing in your own works.
I hope this helps Jos,
walk in love
edwinG
Hello edwinG

My faith isn’t lacking, my faith has be surley tried and tested as gold in a fire.
What I’m saying is your OSAS argument doesn’t stand up because you said it yourself, OSAS.
If the Cross of Jesus was enough, then why do you have to pick up your own cross.
You shouldn’t have to do zilch, and Jesus must have been having an off day when He said those words.
And I’m not lost,-------you said believing in my own works :hmmm: it says in the Bible faith without works is dead, so how do you get around that one ?
We shouldn’t need to perform good works, just totter about in igornant bliss and we’ll get to Heaven anyway.

OSAS doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, so all we have have to do is put are feet up in front of the TV sup a beer and get good and obese.
But not to worry, OSAS, I don’t think I’ll take you up on that one edwing, thanks anyway.:tiphat:
 
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