Once Saved--Always Saved

[c0achmcguirk]

MaggieOH:

I can understand the confusion for if one believes anything written by James White then I have no doubt that such a person would remain confused.

Okay Maggie, please list what you have read or heard from James White and list all the lies that he has spread. Remember, it’s not a lie if he has an argument to support a point of contention. Please reserve your answers to out and out dishonesty.

James White does not have much in the way of a decent argument.

Word on the street is, he does. It seems the newbie Roman apologists are the ones who deny that he’s good. You’ll find that the more experienced Roman apologists respect his debating skills and scholarship.

I’m having trouble understanding how you would notice a good argument from him anyhow–you ignore nearly all my tough questions. Perhaps you do the same when you hear a good argument from White.

He claims to win debates that he clearly does not win, and that is due to the sense of arrogance that is possessed.

Maggie, you’re libeling Dr. White without examples. Please provide examples of White claiming “to win debates he clearly does not win” and of his “sense of arrogance that is possessed.” Remember the old bearing false witness thing?

When Pastor White does some serious study then perhaps he should be taken seriously. Until then, his work has little or nothing of value within it.

(chuckle) He’s taken very seriously for good reasons. But your bravado is impressive.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[st_felicity]

c0achmcguirk:

It seems the newbie Roman apologists are the ones who deny that he’s good. You’ll find that the more experienced Roman apologists respect his debating skills and scholarship.
c0ach

This may be off topic, but…

To all you Protestant apologists out there–as a true believer of Catholic doctrine–my RED FLAGS start waving waving when someone is too lazy to type out C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C, or R-O-M-A-N C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C and just calls us “Roman” or RC (although if it’s a long post and it was typed out once… that’s okay…it’s the English teacher in me…). I guess it’s just a thing…Protestant has 10 letters, Catholic has only 8–it’s only 3 more letters than “Roman” (although I do appreciate that you capitalize …) can you do us a favor and go the extra mile???

 

[oudave]

Church Militant:

Yeah, you believe that because that’s the standard Baptist teaching from the pulpits in spite of the TRUCKLOAD of Biblical evidence to the contrary. So…it appears that Baptists believe that their preachers are the final authority on what they believe whether it is scriptural or not.

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

Hey Chuch
When I go back and read some of your posts, I find one interesting pattern. You are mean spirited and hateful and if I were interested in becoming a Catholic and looking for answers in these forums, it wouldnt take long to come to a conclusion. I know that you are passionate about your religon but try being a better example.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

 

[st_felicity]

oudave:

Hey Chuch
When I go back and read some of your posts, I find one interesting pattern. You are mean spirited and hateful and if I were interested in becoming a Catholic and looking for answers in these forums, it wouldnt take long to come to a conclusion. I know that you are passionate about your religon but try being a better example.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

OH MY!!! you have Church Militant Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Wrong!!!

Wit is NOT spite! Think again–and review his posts ALL OVER this forum!

BTW–It’s C-H-U-R-C-H , not C-H-U-C-H (there’s that pesky English teacher again… )

(Now don’t go skanning all MY posts for typos–it was a joke…!)

 

[MaggieOH]

c0achmcguirk:

Okay Maggie, please list what you have read or heard from James White and list all the lies that he has spread. Remember, it’s not a lie if he has an argument to support a point of contention. Please reserve your answers to out and out dishonesty.

Word on the street is, he does. It seems the newbie Roman apologists are the ones who deny that he’s good. You’ll find that the more experienced Roman apologists respect his debating skills and scholarship.

I’m having trouble understanding how you would notice a good argument from him anyhow–you ignore nearly all my tough questions. Perhaps you do the same when you hear a good argument from White.

Maggie, you’re libeling Dr. White without examples. Please provide examples of White claiming “to win debates he clearly does not win” and of his “sense of arrogance that is possessed.” Remember the old bearing false witness thing?

(chuckle) He’s taken very seriously for good reasons. But your bravado is impressive.

God bless,
c0ach

Can you prove that Pastor White has a legitimate theological qualification? I have seen some sites where the qualification is cast into doubt.

Can you prove that Pastor White accepts the Perpetual Virginity of Mary in line with Lutheran and Calvinist thought?

If you cannot prove question no 2. then please do not waste my time talking about someone who is responsible for spreading the Neo-Helvidius heresy.

Maggie

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

c0achmcguirk:

Maggie, you didn’t respond to the Scripture that completely contradicts you. Reiteration != refutation.

I’ll repost these, please answer the questions:

If this means I worship the Bible as if it were God, what would you say to Jesus who says to the Sadducees:

Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?..”
–Matthew 22:29-32

Jesus believed God said what was written in the Scriptures (he’s quoting from Exodus 3:6 by the way). Was Jesus worshipping the Bible as if it were God?

And what are we to do with what Peter tells us:

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
–2 Peter 1:19-21

Is Peter engaging in Bible idolotry too? He is saying that the Bible is men speaking from God, not of their own interpretation.

I’m really at a loss here. Oudave, can you help your fellow Catholic understand Scripture and its origins? If Maggie rejects these passages as “worthless” then I don’t know what else can be done.

God bless,
c0ach

Oudave is not Catholic he is church of Christ:nope:

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

Hey Chuch
When I go back and read some of your posts, I find one interesting pattern. You are mean spirited and hateful and if I were interested in becoming a Catholic and looking for answers in these forums, it wouldnt take long to come to a conclusion. I know that you are passionate about your religon but try being a better example.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

Oudave don’t cast stones in a glass house:tsktsk: It seems to me that if one was to copy and paste your attacks your so called rebuke would be an embarassment to you.We are Christians that go back to Peter and the apostles!What we are not is doormats for people to slander and falslely accuse:tsktsk: Church is responding in a way that is a responsive to your arrogant and prideful posts,that serves nothing more than to boost your ego.By the way while you hop up and down thumping your Bible just remember the devil used scripture to tempt Jesus.Take off your biggoted anti-Cathloic glasses and dialog without attacks and insults and you would be much better recieved,and this goes to any others here that doesn’t want to learn what we believe,but is here to make false accusations.God Bless

 

[c0achmcguirk]

st_felicity:

This may be off topic, but…

To all you Protestant apologists out there–as a true believer of Catholic doctrine–my RED FLAGS start waving waving when someone is too lazy to type out C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C, or R-O-M-A-N C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C and just calls us “Roman” or RC (although if it’s a long post and it was typed out once… that’s okay…it’s the English teacher in me…). I guess it’s just a thing…Protestant has 10 letters, Catholic has only 8–it’s only 3 more letters than “Roman” (although I do appreciate that you capitalize …) can you do us a favor and go the extra mile???

I had no idea I was offending you. I will try to do better in the future…it’s handy to have several interchangeable words to break up the monotony. I don’t mind being called Protestant, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, or Reformed, as long as they are used non pejoratively. But if I offended you, I apologize and will change my ways.

God bless,
c0ach

 

[st_felicity]

c0achmcguirk:

I had no idea I was offending you. I will try to do better in the future…it’s handy to have several interchangeable words to break up the monotony. I don’t mind being called Protestant, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, or Reformed, as long as they are used non pejoratively. But if I offended you, I apologize and will change my ways.

God bless,
c0ach

No biggie…I wouldn’t go so far as to say I was offended… Maybe picky… It was more an FYI sort of thing…Sometimes it’s hard to tell who is being pejoritive and who is not…so I thought the kind thing to do would be to clarify.

Thanks!

 

[c0achmcguirk]

MaggieOH:

Can you prove that Pastor White has a legitimate theological qualification? I have seen some sites where the qualification is cast into doubt.

You avoided my questions for an ad hominem. How novel. The evidence is out there.

If you can’t beat 'em, attack their credentials.

Can you prove that Pastor White accepts the Perpetual Virginity of Mary in line with Lutheran and Calvinist thought?

Luther and Calvin had their traditions too…and they didn’t have the Biblical tools that we have today that help us to understand Scriptures. Now Luther and Calvin may have believed it, but it doesn’t mean Lutherans and Calvinists do.

Why would Dr. White, who holds to sola Scriptura prove that his views are in line with another man? Shouldn’t he be held to the Bible for consistency?

Irenaeus thought Jesus lived to be over 50 years old. Could you prove that you accept this view? After all, he’s a Church Father…

If you cannot prove question no 2. then please do not waste my time talking about someone who is responsible for spreading the Neo-Helvidius heresy.

Maggie, you missed some questions for some strange reason… I’ll repost them in case you missed them:

**Okay Maggie, please list what you have read or heard from James White and list all the lies that he has spread. Remember, it’s not a lie if he has an argument to support a point of contention. Please reserve your answers to out and out dishonesty.

Maggie, you’re libeling Dr. White without examples. Please provide examples of White claiming “to win debates he clearly does not win” and of his “sense of arrogance that is possessed.” Remember the old bearing false witness thing?**

Also, if you could reply to post 116 about saying “God said” when referring to Scripture. It’s been posted a few times already so I won’t repost it. Could you deal with all of my questions instead of quoting the whole post and just reiterating your position? I think that would be useful for everyone. Thanks!

God bless,
c0ach

 

[c0achmcguirk]

Lisa4Catholics:

Oudave is not Catholic he is church of Christ:nope:

Whoops, I was confusing him with someone else. Sorry everyone.

 

[c0achmcguirk]

st_felicity:

No biggie…I wouldn’t go so far as to say I was offended… Maybe picky… It was more an FYI sort of thing…Sometimes it’s hard to tell who is being pejoritive and who is not…so I thought the kind thing to do would be to clarify.

Thanks!

No biggie. Thanks for the heads up, you nice Roman Catholic you!

God bless,
c0ach

 

[Church_Militant]

oudave:

Hey Chuch
When I go back and read some of your posts, I find one interesting pattern. You are mean spirited and hateful and if I were interested in becoming a Catholic and looking for answers in these forums, it wouldnt take long to come to a conclusion. I know that you are passionate about your religon but try being a better example.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

As with your Bible, you freely interpret things any way you want…LOL What am I supposed to think… I’m not the one on a religious site making allegations and hijacking threads all over the place with stuff that anyone with a copy of the CCC would know is not so. I simply pointed out that the statment inquestion is TYPICAL of Baptists all over the place…I used to be a Southern Baptist at one point, so I know what I’m talking about. The dead level truth is that you and most of your friends come in here with a headfull of 2nd hand info that is wrong or misconstrued all over the place and want us to be sweet and gentle and not tell you straight off that it’s BUNK? PLEASE! Even when we give you Biblical and historic answers…you don’t listen because you all have it in your mind that the Catholic Church just plain cannot be right.

Look I WAS like you all for way too many years and so I know where you’re comin’ from with all this. I’m not mean and I haven’t been (YET)…believe me you would know it when it happened. I just flat refuse to sit here and kiss up to a bunch of antiCatholic attack dogs that need to either get a life or get a better understanding of what Catholics really believe.

We are all sick and tired of answering all this biased stuff that you have read, heard and are repeating as if it was Gospel. What other forums do you hang out on? I bet I’d get the very same reaction if I went there and posted some of the trash that I’ve heard about other churches that I KNOW is not true. In fact…I’d be banned before I could get the second post typed. We are at least more tolerant than that though to be honest sometimes I wonder why.

If you think this is mean spirited and hateful?..You need to go back and look at some of your own posts Dave. I bet I can survey the Catholic posters here on this thread right now and they’ll agree that you often come on like an attack dog. I hold back on you because I figure that 2 wrongs don’t make a right. You would try the patience of any saint.
Pax vobiscum,
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif

 

[MaggieOH]

c0achmcguirk:

There are several good reasons actually. But if I posted my reasons here something tells me they’d be ignored.

God bless,
c0ach

You received a response and you do not accept what reply that you have received.

That is the problem with dealing with a certain type of Evangelical. What comes out is just a regurgitation of claims that are easily refuted especially when it comes to the missing books from the Protestant Bible.

I have other fish to fry than take notice of someone who has not even bothered to read the books in question and then quotes reasons that are not in the slightest bit legitimate as alleged proof of exclusion.

My response is, tell me why there is such a fear of the regular congregation reading these books?

This is an argument that is not all that different than the one that is applied to the Catholic Church regarding the alleged banning of the use of the Bibles, except for one thing, the Protestant claim that the Bible was banned is false.

Now how about we get back onto the topic. This is getting to be like a slippery eel, going this way and that, but never getting anywhere.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

c0achmcguirk:

You avoided my questions for an ad hominem. How novel. The evidence is out there.

If you can’t beat 'em, attack their credentials.

Luther and Calvin had their traditions too…and they didn’t have the Biblical tools that we have today that help us to understand Scriptures. Now Luther and Calvin may have believed it, but it doesn’t mean Lutherans and Calvinists do.

Why would Dr. White, who holds to sola Scriptura prove that his views are in line with another man? Shouldn’t he be held to the Bible for consistency?

Irenaeus thought Jesus lived to be over 50 years old. Could you prove that you accept this view? After all, he’s a Church Father…

Maggie, you missed some questions for some strange reason… I’ll repost them in case you missed them:

**Okay Maggie, please list what you have read or heard from James White and list all the lies that he has spread. Remember, it’s not a lie if he has an argument to support a point of contention. Please reserve your answers to out and out dishonesty.

Maggie, you’re libeling Dr. White without examples. Please provide examples of White claiming “to win debates he clearly does not win” and of his “sense of arrogance that is possessed.” Remember the old bearing false witness thing?**

Also, if you could reply to post 116 about saying “God said” when referring to Scripture. It’s been posted a few times already so I won’t repost it. Could you deal with all of my questions instead of quoting the whole post and just reiterating your position? I think that would be useful for everyone. Thanks!

God bless,
c0ach

I have seen the list of alleged credentials but how do I know that they are true? How do I know that they were not obtained from diploma by mail type place? I do not know that but I can tell you that there are people on the Internet who seem to have a problem with the veracity of those qualifications.

Second you have not responded to my one and only question that I want answered. I will not accept any other diversionary tactic. I want it straight. Does Mr White teach the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, which is a doctrine that was believed and taught by early Christians and then up to and including Calvin. Luther, Wesley, Zwingli and other early Reformers. If he does not teach this doctrine then he is spreading the Neo-Helvidius heresy. The onus is on you to prove that Mr.White is orthodox in his teachings of Christianity.

I guess I will not hold my breath waiting for a response that proves Mr White to be orthodox.

Maggie

 

[oudave]

Church Militant:

As with your Bible, you freely interpret things any way you want…LOL What am I supposed to think… I’m not the one on a religious site making allegations and hijacking threads all over the place with stuff that anyone with a copy of the CCC would know is not so. I simply pointed out that the statment inquestion is TYPICAL of Baptists all over the place…I used to be a Southern Baptist at one point, so I know what I’m talking about. The dead level truth is that you and most of your friends come in here with a headfull of 2nd hand info that is wrong or misconstrued all over the place and want us to be sweet and gentle and not tell you straight off that it’s BUNK? PLEASE! Even when we give you Biblical and historic answers…you don’t listen because you all have it in your mind that the Catholic Church just plain cannot be right.

Look I WAS like you all for way too many years and so I know where you’re comin’ from with all this. I’m not mean and I haven’t been (YET)…believe me you would know it when it happened. I just flat refuse to sit here and kiss up to a bunch of antiCatholic attack dogs that need to either get a life or get a better understanding of what Catholics really believe.

We are all sick and tired of answering all this biased stuff that you have read, heard and are repeating as if it was Gospel. What other forums do you hang out on? I bet I’d get the very same reaction if I went there and posted some of the trash that I’ve heard about other churches that I KNOW is not true. In fact…I’d be banned before I could get the second post typed. We are at least more tolerant than that though to be honest sometimes I wonder why.

Hi
I dont hyjack threads, I answer questions. I cant help it if the question is off topic, and you think that when someone answers different than you think that they are giving you a hard time. This forum belongs to any who comes in and abides by the rules, not just to those who agree with the Catholic church. I’ve been called a wolfe, ignorant, uneducated and a swine to name a few. I dont mind the name calling, many Christians have put up with far worse for there beliefs.
In Him and Only Him, Dave.

 

[edwinG]

TPJCatholic:

edwin,

What are the “hundreds” of rules that Catholics have to follow, that you feel you do not have to follow?

Hi TPJCatholic,
Thank you for your post. The hundreds of rules. Well how many sins do you have listed along with an appropriate response by your priest. I dont have any of them. I just follow the Holy Spirit, my conscience being my guide and the bible being my foundation, for the bible is the Word, and HE is the cornerstone of the church. I know you can argue that no one can follow the Holy Spirit and you claim that is why we have so many church groups. But you are wrong and I for one am proof of that.(And many millions besides me, I believe) The church is not the catholic church. The church is His body. On this list I have even seen rules on the placement of articles within the church ( a man made building) What caused the rift between the churches, was it the Holy Spirit, no, it was and still is man’s obversance of rules, this rule and that rule that today they are still arguing over. Why do we have more than one Christian church. “Rules” is why. Why doesnt the catholic church give up its rules and join with any christian church, just throw a dice and agree with any basic christian church. “rules” is the answer. What does Christ want. Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”
The blessing of loyalty is placed on men when it should be on the Holy Spirit.
Is this helping you understand what I mean by rules TPJ?

Can you personally choose to reject God, or has God taken your free will away not that you are “saved?”

Yes, I can choose to reject God, and I do this everytime I dont obey Him. Sometimes the pull of the flesh it too strong for me and I fail. This is rejection. I ask forgiveness. Sometimes I beg forgiveness. It depends on the anguish that this particular disobedience caused me. I hate my weaknesses. I have to learn to be patient and wait on Him. Once in a fit of bravado, I charged off ahead of Him, confident of victory in any contest, but I was brought to my knees, my weaknesses exposed. Now I hang as close as I can to Him. And why not, for in Him I have the promise of my glorious future. No one else can offer me anywhere near this. I belong to Him and I choose Him.
What a extra-ordinary huge relief to find that God is how He is, Love and Mercy. Could anyone ask for any more in any life.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

TPJCatholic:

If we cannot ever lose our salvation, doesn’t the negate free will?

Hi TPJCatholic,
No , not at all. Our salvation doesnt mean we have to be perfect. We are sinners and we have our own will and we still sin, not God’s will. That is why He is the God of Mercy, that is why we have forgiveness etc.
However , the closer we are to His will the greater our blessings. Would you like to be an apostle. Would you like to heal people by touching them. Christ promises these blessings to those who truly believe. The closer we are the greater the blessings the further away we are the less. Everyone receives His love, even the heathen.
So your road to your salvation can be a smooth road or a rocky road, depending on you.
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Dan_Blake]

TPJCatholic:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” According to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have [accepted Jesus]. Then it really does not matter what we choose to follow.

Wow, TPJ, it is like you hit a hornets’ nest with stick. I am always taken by surprise at the response that results when someone makes a statement about OSAS. That, and the speed with which any thread turns acidic, is an indication to me of just how little basis in truth there is in the assertions being discussed. I don’t really want to get into the turbulent waters of this thread, but if I can ask you about your post quoted above, do you have any authoritative statement from one who believes in OSAS that makes the points you make? Or is this a caricature, a misrepresentation (CCC-2464), of the truth?

Regards.

 

[Ghosty]

The reason why you shouldn’t be Catholic, is because Rome has a false Gospel that is man-centered and focused on works and meriting salvation with deeds (along with faith, of course). Because this isn’t the true Gospel, and one with this mindset may boast in their works since it is their contribution to their salvation (Eph 2:8-10), this isn’t a true faith in Jesus and His Gospel. Putting your faith in a false Gospel jeopardizes your soul.

How on Earth can one do anything to jeopardize their soul in your belief system? Either they are saved or they are not. If I am not saved then no belief in anything can affect it, and if I am saved then I will only believe “the truth”. So again there is nothing wrong with believing in the Catholic faith, because those who believe it were never saved and never can be.