Once Saved--Always Saved

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi TPJCatholic,
Thank you for your post. The hundreds of rules. Well how many sins do you have listed along with an appropriate response by your priest. I dont have any of them.
edwinG

Dear Edwin,

it really is a pity that someone has given you misinformation about sin and the Catholic Church.

My dear friend, there are only two commandments by which we live: (1) Love God; and (2) love your neighbour.

We do not have hundreds of rules or a list of sins with an appropriate response from a priest. On the other hand, perhaps you have seen one of those little booklets on “an examination of conscience” that covers oh so many of the big and small things that we do every single day.

There are many things that we unconciously never think of as being sin, because we have been conditioned to think that way. There are what is known as the seven deadly sins: Lust, Greed, Avarice, Gluttony, Pride… well at least I can rattle off some of them

At the very root of our sin is pride and ego. Always there is self to be considered when we commit sin. As an illustration of sin, I will use the example of disobeying civil traffic laws. (not the civil law because I would never agree to some things enacted as civil law these days). To be precise, in my country we have designated parking spots for the disabled in shopping centres. These spots are for the elderly and those others who have difficulty walking ( I fit into this category because of my arthritis but I do get around ok on most days). To be able to use one of those spots one needs to have a permit (I had to pay for my permit). However, there are times, especially on the premises of my church, that the able-bodied do not respect the rights of the disabled and they park in the designated spots, leaving nothing available for those who need the space. Do you agree that such behaviour is selfish? Would you then agree that such selfishness is a sin? Yet, the very people who are constantly guilty of behaving so selfishly do not repent of their sin. This is only one example.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is nothing at all like you think . It has a lot of benefits, including the fact that by unburdening yourself in the confessional over something that is bothering you, thus confessing your sin before God (the priest stands in for God whilst in the Confessional) you become relieved of your burden and at the same time you save a fortune on not going to see a psycho-therapist - that kind of therapy can get very expensive over time. Needless to say I see the Sacrament of Reconciliation as an opportunity to relieve anxiety of certain small issues that I might have. On the other hand if I need to deal with depression, then the psychologist is the right form of therapy to deal with the hidden issues. Oh yes, these days we even recite a verse from Scripture, and if we are really well prepared, taking in ten foolscap pages of sins to confess, then we would also bring our own bible verse . The knowledge of having God’s forgiveness for past transgressions is very healing.

God Bless
Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi TPJCatholic,
.(And many millions besides me, I believe) The church is not the catholic church. The church is His body. On this list I have even seen rules on the placement of articles within the church ( a man made building)
edwinG

Hi Edwin,

I see where you are coming from, but I do think that there is some precedence in the Scripture regarding “the rules” regarding the placement of articles in the church building.

I can see that you have been very observant about how some people get obsessed about where they believe an object should be - for example there are some people who claim that the Tabernacle and the Cross should be behind the altar. However, the placement of such items is governed by the liturgical norm for the whole Church. You will find the roots of such liturgical norms in the Books of Exodus and Leviticus in particular. It is in those books that the Lord addressed Moses with the details about how He wanted His house to be set up. These rules are in fact a part of the Sacred Tradition that was handed on to us by the Apostles.

However, this has nothing to do with the subject, except to give you some sort of explanation as to why these “rules” do not affect Catholics as a whole. Also, I have seen evidence that suggests that both Anglican and Lutheran rites use similar “rules” when it comes to liturgical garments, tabernacle and crosses. The Lutheran Cathedral where Mary Donaldson and Prince Frederick were married even had statues, and I remain impressed with what I have remembered of the homily by the Lutheran Bishop.

Some of those rules are there to ensure that we give proper reverence and respect to Our Lord.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi TPJCatholic,
What caused the rift between the churches, was it the Holy Spirit, no, it was and still is man’s obversance of rules, this rule and that rule that today they are still arguing over. Why do we have more than one Christian church. “Rules” is why. Why doesnt the catholic church give up its rules and join with any christian church, just throw a dice and agree with any basic christian church. “rules” is the answer.
edwinG

Dear Edwin,

I hope that I can break down some of your own misunderstanding about the Catholic Church. In your response above, you say you want to see the Catholic Church throw the dice and become like the rest. Alas, if that happened then the Church that makes up the Body of Christ will truly be in Apostasy.

How could you want to see all of Christianity defy God on so many basics relating to the culture of death?

• Abortion on demand;
• Voluntary Euthanasia;
• Artificial Contraception;
• Sexual Promiscuity;
• Homosexuality
• Involuntary Euthanasia.
• Stemcell Research

All of these issues come under the heading of Faith and Morals. There is only one way forward and that is to follow those who remain faithful to the Scripture on these issues. There are many who have abandoned the Will of God where the culture of death is concerned and they have enthusiastically endorsed these and other things that have brought about a demise in our civilization as a whole. If you lose respect for yourself by engaging in say prostitution, how long before you are lining up at an abortion clinic waiting to kill the life growing within?

Do you see what I am getting at here? Those rules guide and protect us from falling into both apostasy and heresy and keep us faithful in the Lord.

God Bless
Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Lisa4Catholics:

Oudave is not Catholic he is church of Christ:nope:

Of course Oudave is not a fellow Catholic and Jesus did not worship the Bible because the Bible did not exist. Jesus referred to Scripture as Scripture where appropriate, and He referred to Himself as God:

“I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”

Jesus is God, and referred to Himself as God, and did not refer to a manuscript as God.

Maggie

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

Hi Edwin,

I see where you are coming from, but I do think that there is some precedence in the Scripture regarding “the rules” regarding the placement of articles in the church building.

I can see that you have been very observant about how some people get obsessed about where they believe an object should be - for example there are some people who claim that the Tabernacle and the Cross should be behind the altar. However, the placement of such items is governed by the liturgical norm for the whole Church. You will find the roots of such liturgical norms in the Books of Exodus and Leviticus in particular. It is in those books that the Lord addressed Moses with the details about how He wanted His house to be set up. These rules are in fact a part of the Sacred Tradition that was handed on to us by the Apostles.

However, this has nothing to do with the subject, except to give you some sort of explanation as to why these “rules” do not affect Catholics as a whole. Also, I have seen evidence that suggests that both Anglican and Lutheran rites use similar “rules” when it comes to liturgical garments, tabernacle and crosses. The Lutheran Cathedral where Mary Donaldson and Prince Frederick were married even had statues, and I remain impressed with what I have remembered of the homily by the Lutheran Bishop.

Some of those rules are there to ensure that we give proper reverence and respect to Our Lord.

Maggie

Hi Maggie,
Sure the tabernacle etc were made precisely according to His directions as they were copies of those same articles in heaven, but that was in the old testament. This is a different age and this is the age of the spirit, We are the temple, the age is spiritual, the rocks and mortar temple was knocked down in the 70’s as it’s time was fullfilled.
We are in the age of the spirit.
We follow Him as Christ who was fully human did successfully. If Christ a human could follow the Holy Spirit to the point of being sinless, then that is possible for us, but we are not that obedient. But we could be. It is our choice. If God says we can do this, we can. He is not wrong.
Walk in love
Grow in Christhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
Ps I am from Brisbane and Cairns.

 

[_Joshua]

Once saved always saved what ever happened to the words of Jesus, when He said that we must take up our cross and follow Him.

And those that don’t aren’t worthy of Him, the cross of Jesus redeemed us, but that doesn’t mean we won’t have to carry our daily crosse’s.
Anyway can anyone tell me why we have crosse’s if all it took was for Jesus to die for us.
So we can all sit back, comit adultery, fornication of every kind, all types of sins of the flesh, but it’s doesn’t matter, “once saved always saved”.

That kind of teaching is sending many souls to hell, and I wouldn’t listen to it for 2 seconds.

So can any of you “Once saved always saved” preachers tell me why we have to carry our own cross, wouldn’t the cross of Jesus suffice ?

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi Maggie,
Sure the tabernacle etc were made precisely according to His directions as they were copies of those same articles in heaven, but that was in the old testament. This is a different age and this is the age of the spirit, We are the temple, the age is spiritual, the rocks and mortar temple was knocked down in the 70’s as it’s time was fullfilled.
We are in the age of the spirit.
We follow Him as Christ who was fully human did successfully. If Christ a human could follow the Holy Spirit to the point of being sinless, then that is possible for us, but we are not that obedient. But we could be. It is our choice. If God says we can do this, we can. He is not wrong.
Walk in love
Grow in Christhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
Ps I am from Brisbane and Cairns.

Dear Edwin,

(p.s. I am in Sydney but have lived in Townsville)

the words of Jesus for us are the following: “If you want to be my disciple, then pick up your cross and follow me.”

Your are correct in one way, but not in another. God is still very much amongst us. He is present with us when we gather together in our respective churches.

The real difference between your belief and my own is that I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Have you ever been inside a Synagogue or a Catholic Church? I suspect not. You see there are many similarities between both buildings because the Tabernacle represents the Presence of God in our midst.

On the other hand I do see what you are saying when you speaking of our bodies also being a temple of God. Yet I disagree when you say that Jesus was just a man. He is the MAN-GOD, both human and divine. He was tempted at least three times as listed in the Scripture, and He won the greatest victory over Satan because in his humanity He did not give into Satan’s temptations. Yet, because Jesus is Divine, He is all Perfect and we cannot measure up to that standard of Perfection. Yet we can do what He asks of us: “shoulder my yoke and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls! Yes my yoke is easy and my burden light.” (Matt 11:29-30)

That is to say, Jesus says that His Way, His Discipline is necessary for us if we are to follow Him.

Yes, Edwin, I too have had my own baptism in the Holy Spirit, having felt the joy of receiving His Grace, in a moment of pure joy. That is a subject for another thread.

Maggie

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

Dear Edwin,

I hope that I can break down some of your own misunderstanding about the Catholic Church. In your response above, you say you want to see the Catholic Church throw the dice and become like the rest. Alas, if that happened then the Church that makes up the Body of Christ will truly be in Apostasy.

How could you want to see all of Christianity defy God on so many basics relating to the culture of death?

• Abortion on demand;
• Voluntary Euthanasia;
• Artificial Contraception;
• Sexual Promiscuity;
• Homosexuality
• Involuntary Euthanasia.
• Stemcell Research

All of these issues come under the heading of Faith and Morals. There is only one way forward and that is to follow those who remain faithful to the Scripture on these issues. There are many who have abandoned the Will of God where the culture of death is concerned and they have enthusiastically endorsed these and other things that have brought about a demise in our civilization as a whole. If you lose respect for yourself by engaging in say prostitution, how long before you are lining up at an abortion clinic waiting to kill the life growing within?

Do you see what I am getting at here? Those rules guide and protect us from falling into both apostasy and heresy and keep us faithful in the Lord.

God Bless
Maggie

Hi Maggie,
I may not have expressed my self well. I did not intend to mean that the catholic church should throw in the towel and become like every other church. Using the catholic church as an example, I suggested the catholic join with any other church which had basic Christian beliefs and to do this by chance. The same could apply to all other churches.
Regarding all of these issues. My answer is still the Holy Spirit. I have faith in Him and His leading. He would not let me go into sin without warning me. I have the choice and may choose to go into sin, but He will definitely warn me and more than once. HE had to warn me 4 times to give up smoking. But only once to give up alcohol on a daily basis. I know I can still smoke and I can still drink, but I have chosen not to. If circumstances arise where it is desirable for me to do either of these activities I will, knowing I am not sinning. I am secure in His leading. I still sin because I am willfull and ignore Him sometimes. But it hurts me and I am sorry when I do.
I believe in the role of the church and this role is to love one another and to support one another and to spread His word. It’s role is not to supplant the Holy Spirit.
When people are controlled by fear from its church then that leads to hypocrisy. Many people are led by peer pressure instead of love.
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
grow in Christ
edwinG

 

[mtr01]

edwinG:

Hi Maggie,
Sure the tabernacle etc were made precisely according to His directions as they were copies of those same articles in heaven, but that was in the old testament. This is a different age and this is the age of the spirit, We are the temple, the age is spiritual, the rocks and mortar temple was knocked down in the 70’s as it’s time was fullfilled.
Walk in love
Grow in Christhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
Ps I am from Brisbane and Cairns.

Edwin, hope you don’t mind if I jump in here, but regarding all of these “rules”. One thing you have to remember about the Catholic Church is that it is a universal Church, and not a loose commection of individual parishes. What that means is that as a Catholic, I should be able to go into any Catholic Church, anywhere in the world and have the same Worship experience as I do in my home parish. Thus, there have to be norms and guidelines to ensure this. It’s not about restricting what we can do, or micromanagement, but to insure the uniformity of the Church throughout the world.

Hope this helps!

 

[Mickey]

c0achmcguirk:

Word on the street is, he does. It seems the newbie Roman apologists are the ones who deny that he’s good. You’ll find that the more experienced Roman apologists respect his debating skills and scholarship.

Hi Coach,

Glory To Jesus Christ. I have read many articles by James White and I Have read transcripts of his debates. (you’ll have to take my word for it because I’m not going to list them ). He is a very good debater. He wins some and he loses some. (though he claims to win them all–I think that’s why Maggie says there is a characteristic of arrogance). However, great debating skills do not prove scholarship. His revisionist theology is evident. I have noticed that the reformed baptists are one of the most vehemently anti-Catholic groups in exsistence. I’m so sad to hear that you were Catholic for 20 years and then abandoned the fullness of truth. I will pray for you. God Bless you!

 

[ppcpilot]

You know, guys…I think Catholics do believe in OSAS! Yes, you heard me correctly.

We believe we are saved when Jesus judges us after death, and tells us ‘well done, good and faitful servant’. Yep. We are then saved and can not lose that salvation.

Me thinks that Protestant ‘saved’ = justification? Everyone is justified for the possibility of salvation through the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ. We have to do the father’s will and keep with it to the end, and then salvation will be granted to us.

It’s kind of like having an audition. We get called to the audition (justification) but we have to show that we fit the will and desires of the producer (God) of the part we are to play (service to God) in order to be chosen (saved). If we do a lousy job at what the producer wants us to do, then he will dismiss us.

It’s simplistic and doesn’t encompass every detail, but I think it’s a good example.

 

[_Joshua]

c0achmcguirk:

Jesus believed God said what was written in the Scriptures (he’s quoting from Exodus 3:6 by the way). Was Jesus worshipping the Bible as if it were God?

Jesus is true God and true man, He would hardly go around worshipping Himself, I don’t think Gods humility would allow it.
Is the Bible the word of God or not ? didn’t Jesus warn about a kingdom devided against it-self ?

 

[HilaryJ]

Church Militant:

Yeah, you believe that because that’s the standard Baptist teaching from the pulpits in spite of the TRUCKLOAD of Biblical evidence to the contrary. So…it appears that Baptists believe that their preachers are the final authority on what they believe whether it is scriptural or not.

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

I would say that believing what the “pastors” preach from the pulpits is a Catholic belief. You say that the traditions of the church are just as important as the Bible, and any Pope can add or change doctrine, so I would at the least say that this is a weak argument. I don’t bow down to any pastor. I use the Bible as my guide.

 

[ppcpilot]

I don’t think that is correct, HJ. The pastors in the pulpit preach, yes, but it is all inline with the teachings of the Magesterium. If you have doubts or confusion about something, you can consult 2000 years of Church teaching to get the truth. You won’t find many priests who teach different contradictory things about one particular subject. I love going to baptistboard.com and listening to the ‘what are you’ parts…are you a 3 point Calvinist, or a 4 point…etc.

We have our differences here, but we dont ask what doctrines we accept or deny…it’s not up to us to find something that ‘fits’ our point of view. There is one Truth.

As far as the Pope and doctrine is concerned, I don’t think a pope can change doctrine? He can change the way things are done, but a truth is a truth and can not be altered. That’s why we will never have contraception or women priests in our Church. We stick to our guns because it is Truth.

Without an absolute, you have no truth, you have interpretation, which is all over the board. Look at Lutheran, for example.
Heck, even Luther who broke away kept many many elements of the Catholic Mass in his church…they have a liturgy, and icons, etc…but then the rebels rebeled again, and again, b/c there was no absolute truth to be sticking to. The Holy Spirit (God Himself) would not lead his followers in circles with contradiction. There is one Truth. You can’t cop out and not accept it.

 

[Mickey]

ppcpilot:

I don’t think that is correct, HJ. The pastors in the pulpit preach, yes, but it is all inline with the teachings of the Magesterium. If you have doubts or confusion about something, you can consult 2000 years of Church teaching to get the truth. You won’t find many priests who teach different contradictory things about one particular subject. Heck, even Luther who broke away kept many many elements of the Catholic Mass in his church…they have a liturgy, and icons, etc…but then the rebels rebeled again, and again, b/c there was no absolute truth to be sticking to. The Holy Spirit (God Himself) would not lead his followers in circles with contradiction. There is one Truth. You can’t cop out and not accept it.

Amen, ppcpilot! Also, no pope has ever added to or changed any doctrine.

 

[ppcpilot]

Thanks…I just edited my post with that tidbit, as the thought did occur to me!

 

[HilaryJ]

ppcpilot:

. The pastors in the pulpit preach, yes, but it is all inline with the teachings of the Magesterium. .

What is Magesterium?

ppcpilot:

. If you have doubts or confusion about something, you can consult 2000 years of Church teaching to get the truth…

I would rather consult the Bible than man’s interpretation

ppcpilot:

. We have our differences here, but we dont ask what doctrines we accept or deny…it’s not up to us to find something that ‘fits’ our point of view. There is one Truth…

Exactly.

ppcpilot:

. As far as the Pope and doctrine is concerned, I don’t think a pope can change doctrine? He can change the way things are done, but a truth is a truth and can not be altered…

I believe that truth cannot be altered either. But why over the centruies were there so many councils if things weren’t added and changed? These things were clearly accpted at the times of these councils.

ppcpilot:

. That’s why we will never have contraception or women priests in our Church. We stick to our guns because it is Truth…

Amen on no women priests as per first Tim. Why not contraception? Can’t God control this anyway. If he wanted someone to conceive he could cause it, after all he has done so from the beginning of time.

I’m not trying to spread falsities about the Catholic church, I am just trying to understand. Thank you for your help.

 

[Genesis315]

c0achmcguirk:

God never forces us to do anything against our will. We willingly choose our sin…but God’s will supercedes our own.

I’m having trouble understanding this statement. Are you saying that we have free will but our will is always the same as God’s will? Or we don’t have free will and God gives us a will that he basically controls? Or God sees what our will is going to be and then makes it His will? Or is it God only wills some things, and if he is not willing on an issue, then we can make choices?

I think God, if He desired, could control us all like robots. He could easily make the world sinless. But the fact that sin exists (something He obviously doesn’t approve of) shows he has given us some sovereignty over our own actions. What would be the point of sin, if not as a side effect of freewill?

 

[Genesis315]

sorry this is kind of off topic, I didn’t realize there was two pages

 

[ppcpilot]

HilaryJ:

What is Magesterium?

I would rather consult the Bible than man’s interpretation

Exactly.

I believe that truth cannot be altered either. But why over the centruies were there so many councils if things weren’t added and changed? These things were clearly accpted at the times of these councils.

Amen on no women priests as per first Tim. Why not contraception? Can’t God control this anyway. If he wanted someone to conceive he could cause it, after all he has done so from the beginning of time.

I’m not trying to spread falsities about the Catholic church, I am just trying to understand. Thank you for your help.

The Magesterium is the 2000 years of inspired Church teaching, starting with the apostles until now. The Church can trace its roots with apostolic succession all the way back to Peter, as the first Pope.

As far as consulting the bible than man’s interpretation, guess what? When you consult the book, you are interpreting it for yourself ie…the same thing as ‘man’s interpretation.’ How do you know what you are interpreting is what was really meant by the passage?