Once Saved, Always Saved

[Nicea325]

From my perspective it’s just an attempt to shirk any personal responsibility and to make it all “100% God’s problem and job” to get one to heaven. So it becomes: “Just believe in Jesus AND believe in the doctrinal theory that one can’t ever be estranged from Jesus by mere sin or anything one can do.”
Personal responsibility. A foreign word in our day and age.
This is where the majority of evangelicals are at. Once I 'know 'I’m as ‘sure for Heaven as Jesus’, I sit on my laurels and pretty much do nothing. Good works? Why? I’m heading for Heaven. It stifles any good done on this earth the end has already been decided.

Exactly! The whole notion one is saved and not lose it is absurd.

 

[Gianna_MarieJMJ]

ForeverGrace,

So you are a Calvanist? Do you mind if I ask you something?

My boyfriend was once a Calvanist as well, until he studied long and hard with me about the Catholic faith. He is now converting to the Catholic Church next year. Anyways, he had made a very interesting point that I thought I would share with you

We were talking one day about the Calvanists belief in the elect and of most Calvanists belief of Total Depravity. He pointed out that before he had made his decision, he (obviously) didn’t believe in the Catholic Churches belief of Free Will, but he pointed out that Moses States in Exodus 32:32 “Or if thou do not, strike me out of the book that thou hast written.” (An example of The Elect…or as most call it…Book of the Elect) God then responds with “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book."
Wouldn’t this then imply that God has given his people Free Will, rather then to already assume you are going to heaven? For if he has a certain ‘book’ into which you are already on a free ride, wouldn’t he have said to Moses, " Ahhh well…you were never in that book Moses…" Or…" I can’t blot you out! You’re already going to heaven!!"

I hope all of this makes sense to you and I would be glad to read your comment back

God Bless!!!

ps. My Goal is never to force anyone into believing what I believe…my goal is to defend my Faith and show you why I love my faith so, just as you or any Protestant is wanting to do as well.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

If you want to understand salvation consider the parable of the sower. How many people in the various categories in the parable would consider themselves saved? I would imagine that many of them consider themselves saved, but in truth only the ones that bear fruit are saved, and not all of them bear the same amount of fruit. It is abundantly clear in Scripture that those who bear fruit will have no condemnation upon them.

Those who bear fruit in the Lord do not live in fear of losing their salvation, but rather rejoice in the love of God that was poured out into their hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to them. Some might think this is absurd, but to us that are saved it is the power of God!

 

[ignatius777]

If you want to understand salvation consider the parable of the sower. How many people in the various categories in the parable would consider themselves saved? I would imagine that many of them consider themselves saved, but in truth only the ones that bear fruit are saved, and not all of them bear the same amount of fruit. It is abundantly clear in Scripture that those who bear fruit will have no condemnation upon them.

Those who bear fruit in the Lord do not live in fear of losing their salvation, but rather rejoice in the love of God that was poured out into their hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to them. Some might think this is absurd, but to us that are saved it is the power of God!

How are certain that YOU bear this fruit which will bring no condemnation upon you?

 

[meltzerboy]

You would HAVE to believe Paul was foolish if you think he believed in OSAS and said we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Only a fool would believe in such contradictory statements.

While we are on the topic Paul went to great pains to note that it was works of the LAW that had no part in salvation. Jesus said He came to fulfill the LAW not abolish it (Matt 5:17). So did Jesus come to fufill the LAW only to have Paul say we arent saved by works of the very LAW which Jesus fulfilled? I hope you dont believe that but we have a prblem dont we? Why would Jesus fufill a LAW that Paul would later say has no part in salvation? Paul doesnt know more then Jesus right? So its either different LAWS or different intent.

The Jewish perspective on the Mosaic Law (Torah) is that it sanctifies the ordinary and mundane of life, so that everyday behavior becomes something spiritual. The law is NOT considered a legalistic set of work requirements, but a sanctification of human life and faith in G-d, in which the 613 commandments (many of which cannot be followed in the modern world) are basically, according to Maimonides, divided into two categories: “Love G-d” and “Love thy neighbor (and enemy) as thyself,” which are interconnected. Thus faith in G-d and good works toward others, for Judaism, are an integral unit and a continual process.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

How are certain that YOU bear this fruit which will bring no condemnation upon you?

I love God and believe in Christ. At a minimum I bear the fruits of repentance because I am not the man I once was. I strive to follow my Lord in all things. I am not always successful, but I am His nonetheless. I abide in God’s grace and never take that for granted. Jesus said that the work of God was to believe in Him who He sent. If we truly do that in faith, the rest will fall into place.

What astonishes me is that so many people who identify themselves as Christian don’t seem to know whether or not they are a child of God. Are you a child of God? If so, why are you so doubtful?

 

[ignatius777]

The Jewish perspective on the Mosaic Law (Torah) is that it sanctifies the ordinary and mundane of life, so that everyday behavior becomes something spiritual. The law is NOT considered a legalistic set of work requirements, but a sanctification of human life and faith in G-d, in which the 613 commandments (many of which cannot be followed in the modern world) are basically, according to Maimonides, divided into two categories: “Love G-d” and “Love thy neighbor (and enemy) as thyself,” which are interconnected. Thus faith in G-d and good works toward others, for Judaism, are an integral unit and a continual process.

I did not mean to imply that Mosaic law was just a legalistic set of work requirements but rather that Paul must have meant something different then the way protestants define works when refering to works of the law. Any religious rule or law can be useless if done only as an obligation and not part of a deeper meaning and intent. I think we would agree that just performing any of the Mosaic law doesnt by itself bring us any benefit. I was merely addressing what I believe is a protestant perversion of the definition of “works of the law”.

 

[ignatius777]

I love God and believe in Christ. At a minimum I bear the fruits of repentance because I am not the man I once was. I strive to follow my Lord in all things. I am not always successful, but I am His nonetheless. I abide in God’s grace and never take that for granted. Jesus said that the work of God was to believe in Him who He sent. If we truly do that in faith, the rest will fall into place.

What astonishes me is that so many people who identify themselves as Christian don’t seem to know whether or not they are a child of God. Are you a child of God? If so, why are you so doubtful?

I am a child of God for sure but I recognize that I have choses to make everyday which bring me closer or farther away from God. Jesus gave His disciples the authority to hold bound or to loose sins for a reason. If we are OSAS there is no need for such authority. If I steal your wallet and confess and you forgive me thats wonderful but I still have an obligation to give the wallet and the money it might have contained back to you. Once you have forgiven me am I then incapable of ever stealing again?

What astonishes me is that people recognize they arent perfect even when saved yet believe that they would be fit for heaven even though their sin brings the pain of impurity upon them.

Make no mistake about it I have no salvation without God but until I made pure I am not fit for heaven

 

[meltzerboy]

I did not mean to imply that Mosaic law was just a legalistic set of work requirements but rather that Paul must have meant something different then the way protestants define works when refering to works of the law. Any religious rule or law can be useless if done only as an obligation and not part of a deeper meaning and intent. I think we would agree that just performing any of the Mosaic law doesnt by itself bring us any benefit. I was merely addressing what I believe is a protestant perversion of the definition of “works of the law”.

I was actually agreeing with the Catholic viewpoint that salvation involves faith and good works as on ongoing process of sanctification of G-d and human life, rather than a once-saved, always-saved perspective. (Of course, we still have that “little” disagreement regarding Jesus!)

 

[ignatius777]

I was actually agreeing with the Catholic viewpoint that salvation involves faith and good works as on ongoing process of sanctification of G-d and human life, rather than a once-saved, always-saved perspective. (Of course, we still have that “little” disagreement regarding Jesus!)

I know I just wanted to clarify my position. LOL yes thats just a “minor” point

 

[vickimonica]

Do I think Paul is foolish? What would make you ask such a question? Have I said anything that makes you think that?

But since we are on the topic, Paul said that he often did what he knew he should not do and that he didn’t do what he knew he should. I think Paul summed our condition quite succinctly and I have no doubt he is with the Lord. Paul also said “For we hold that one is justified by faith, APART from works of the law” Romans 3:28 Then there is this: Every sin will be forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Unless the Bible is lying, then that settles it for me.

God Bless.

I’m confused. Do protestants believe the following example? - A person is “born again”, Baptized - lets say around the age of 12. For the REST of his life he lies, cheats, steals, kills someone, commits adultery, never walks into a church again. Because he was Baptized at the age of 12 is he still “once Saved, Always Saved” , going to heaven???

 

[gmcbroom]

Not all protestants, but yes some do believe that. Specifically those of the Calvinist persuasion.

 

[Third_Day]

=Brian Culliton;7700777]I love God and believe in Christ. At a minimum I bear the fruits of repentance because I am not the man I once was. I strive to follow my Lord in all things. I am not always successful, but I am His nonetheless.

If you were to commit adultery and not ask God to forgive you of that sin are you still saved?

I abide in God’s grace and never take that for granted.

If you commit adultery and not confess and repent of that sin, do you still abide in God’s grace?

Jesus said that the work of God was to believe in Him who He sent. If we truly do that in faith, the rest will fall into place.

Is faith without works a saving faith?

What astonishes me is that so many people who identify themselves as Christian don’t seem to know whether or not they are a child of God. Are you a child of God? If so, why are you so doubtful?

As a child of God I can only say that I am not assured of my salvation because I am not aware of anything against myself but I am not thereby justified. I do not judge myself. I will let God judge me on my day of judgment.

 

[fbl9]

If you want to understand salvation consider the parable of the sower. How many people in the various categories in the parable would consider themselves saved? I would imagine that many of them consider themselves saved, but in truth only the ones that bear fruit are saved, and not all of them bear the same amount of fruit. It is abundantly clear in Scripture that those who bear fruit will have no condemnation upon them.

Those who bear fruit in the Lord do not live in fear of losing their salvation, but rather rejoice in the love of God that was poured out into their hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to them. Some might think this is absurd, but to us that are saved it is the power of God!

The type of plants mentioned in this parable have one thing in common with man it takes the whole of the life cycle to bear this fruit.

 

[Link0126]

I’m confused. Do protestants believe the following example? - A person is “born again”, Baptized - lets say around the age of 12. For the REST of his life he lies, cheats, steals, kills someone, commits adultery, never walks into a church again. Because he was Baptized at the age of 12 is he still “once Saved, Always Saved” , going to heaven???

They would just say that person was never really saved. It was all fake. So you won’t really know if you are child of God until you die anyway. Your faith could be fake.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Sorry if this was already posted, but here is the Catholic response to “Are you saved?”

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)

Already Saved

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?

Eph 2: 5-8 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Being Saved

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

2 Cor 2:15 For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Hope that I will be saved

Rom 5: 9-10 Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

1 Cor 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Working out my salvation in fear and trembling

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Confidence in the promises of Christ

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

2 Tim 2:11-13 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he can not deny himself.

 

[pablope]

I didn’t say Romans 11 was about slaves. I asked you what the context of Romans 11 is since that is what you quoted.

The ‘slaves’ question is referring to Paul who is speaking about working out their own way in Ephesians 6.

 

[JustaServant]

Are you a child of God? If so, why are you so doubtful?

How do make the jump in this subject to “doubt”? Catholics hope for salvation, hope is not doubt.
Hope keeps us from presumption and forces me to continue living for Christ. “Knowing for sure” or “once saved always saved” (concepts not found in the Bible or in Christian history up to the Protestant revolt) makes me lazy in my Chriistian walk, flippant toward sin in my life, and most dangerous of all, makes me a little god.

 

[ignatius777]

If you were to commit adultery and not ask God to forgive you of that sin are you still saved?

If you commit adultery and not confess and repent of that sin, do you still abide in God’s grace?

Is faith without works a saving faith?

As a child of God I can only say that I am not assured of my salvation because I am not aware of anything against myself but I am not thereby justified. I do not judge myself. I will let God judge me on my day of judgment.

Heres the beauty of the protestant rationale on this. They would say if you were sincere in your faith you wouldnt commit adultery but since they cant say we are sinless once we have faith they then say the blood of Christ covers that sin so what is there to ask forgiveness for.

See how it works? You wont sin if you are sincere but if you do sin then its all covered anyway. As I have said previously this is classic textbook circular reasoning.

 

[guanophore]

Jude 1:24 (New American Standard Bible)
24(A)Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to (B)make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with (C)great joy,

Hebrews 12:2 (New American Standard Bible)
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the (A)author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him (B)endured the cross, (C)despising the shame, and has (D)sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 7:25 (New American Standard Bible)
25Therefore He is able also to (A)save forever those who (B)draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to (C)make intercession for them.

John 10:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
28and I give (A)eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and (B)no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"[a]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 5:24 (New American Standard Bible)
24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and (A)believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and (B)does not come into judgment, but has (C)passed out of death into life.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (New American Standard Bible)
13In Him, you also, after listening to (A)the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were (B)sealed in Him with (C)the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is (D)given as a pledge of (E)our inheritance, with a view to the (F)redemption of (G)God’s own possession, (H)to the praise of His glory.

Philippians 1:6 (New American Standard Bible)
6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until (A)the day of Christ Jesus.

When you read these passages, you interpret them according to the doctrines of Calvin, esp. the "P’ in the TULIP. This is why they mean something different to you than they do to Catholics. We read the scriptures in the light of the Teaching of the Apostles.