Once Saved, Always Saved

[guanophore]

Non-denominational Protestant here. I’ve been open to listening to the Catholic point of view, reading, listening to Catholic Answers Live for about four years now. I feel I am on the verge of conversion, but I seem to have one thing that I’d really like to have cleared up before going forward.

May God richly bless you in your spiritual quest.

 Here’s my question. I’ve heard a couple of references to the fact that Protestants believe that once saved, always saved and that that is contradictory to Catholic belief.

Well, yes and no. You see, many Protestants suffer from a deficient understanding of salvation because they have been separated from the Apostolic Faith for 500+ years. They extract their understanding of salvation from the Scriptures, rather than recieiving it through the paradosis. The Apostles taught that our salvation is not complete in this life, and that it is possible to fail to obtain our birthright in heaven.

Given that, Catholics DO beleive in OSAS, because we believe that, once a person has completed this life in fellowship with Christ, one is eternally united with thier heavenly inheritance, and can never be separated from it.

Protestants believe that our sins are covered; Catholics believe, as I understand it, that nothing unholy or sinful will be able to stand in God’s presence, that we must continually work towards holiness.

Both things are true. Jesus paid the eternal price for our sins, but His desire is to MAKE us into the holy people He has declared us by grace to be. Since nothing unholy can enter heaven, we must be purified so that we are able to stand in His presence. We are holy positionally in Christ, but not pure practically from the point of view that we are still saints in process.

Rev 21:27
27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Though Catholics and Protestants will agree that a saved person’s name is written in the book of life, rarely will any Protestant claim that we have no more need to be sanctified after we are justified.

Most Protestants I know disregard the possibility that our names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

   Could someone give me a bare bones bullet list of what Catholics believe on this issue?

Catholics don’t do the Faith by “lists”. The Teaching we receive from the Apostles is a whole garment, and every part is connected to the others. HOwever, you can find a succint summary in the Catholic Catechism.

I am asking for something this simple because I seem to get lost in my research, wading through tons of apologetics against seemingly centuries old arguments, none of which I am familiar with. A simple bullet list of what is truth would give me something to hold on to and refer back to as I study this issue.

With much gratitude!

I think sticking to the Catechism will be the most helpful.

 

[guanophore]

Grace,

Is there some sin that you think that Jesus didn’t cover at the cross?

No, but not all persons will benefit from His payment of the debt. We believe that only those who come to Him in faith by grace will enter salvation. We do not believe that all will be saved, though He did pay for the sins of all.

Those who commit mortal sins separate themselves from the saving grace of God. They need to be reconciled to Him - restored to saving grace.

 

[guanophore]

It's not difficult to answer this from a Protestant point of view.  Brian quoted scripture and at least in my mind, that is an answer.

What you are saying is that your perception/understanding of those verse is sufficient for you. What if you learned that how you interpreted them was different than what the authors meant when they wrote them? Would that make any difference to you?

If you have other questions, I will answer you.  I don't argue with Catholics as I don't find it productive, but I will give you an answer.

What is the difference between an “arguement” and a debate"

What is your purpose in coming to CAF?

I can accept that you don’t think this is a OSAS issue. But nothing could be further from the truth. Scripture teaches over and over (as I have shown) that we can’t lose our salvation, provided however, our call upon the Lord was sincere in the first place.

Actually, Forever, Scripture does not “teach” at all. Teaching is an activity that can only be engaged by persons, not by books, however Holy.

You understand the Scriptures this way because this is what you were taught by a PERSON. It may even be only yourself, concluding this way when you read the text.

However, in contrast, the Apostles taught that it is indeed possble to lose our birthright.

Heb 12:14-17

Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. 16 See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears.

If it is not possible to suffer the fate of Esau, then why would Christians be instructed to avoid his course?

From the Apostolic point of view, a great many scriptures must be twisted or avoided to support OSAS.

 

[guanophore]

I can’t believe what I’m seeing here.

Me neither!

Do you understand that the word “fear” doesn’t have anything to be with being afraid of God. Far from it. It’s about awe when we consider our place within the Master’s universe and the respect for authority we owe God. To say nothing of the fact that Paul is talking about slaves in this passage and not a believers path of finding the Lord.

Ok, let me see if I get this straight. People who are in slavery are to work theirs out in fear and trembling, but this has nothing to do with a believers path of finding the Lord?

Romans 11 is a chapter about what?  Do you even know?  Quoting scripture within the context has always been important, is it not?  Picking and choosing scripture can get people into real problems that can lead to spiritual darkness and it's a dishonest way to handle the Holy Scriptures.

It is good you realize this. Someday, you will realize that you are doing it.

What would you say if I were to quote Luke 22 to try to prove that Peter wasn’t thought of more highly than the other diciples to prove that Peter did not found the church.

I would say you are erecting and knocking down strawmen, since the CC does not believe or teach either of these things.

You be calling me a heretic and saying that I was using scripture out of context. So tell me, how is using scripture outside of its context helpful?

Forever, it would be really great if you could use your limited time here on CAF to find out what Catholics believe, instead of fighting these bizarre ideas you have collected somewhere else that are contrary to what we believe. It really makes you look ridiculous, holding onto lies, and trying to pursuade us that we believe them, when we don’t. Jesus founded the Catholic Church, not Peter. Come to the Light! Let go of the darkness you are carrying!

 

[guanophore]

Let’s go on to Philippians 2 which is where I think you are probably heading. Do you see anything in that chapter that says you can lose your salvation? Here is the entire verse:

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but how much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;*** for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.,***

No, but we don’t develop doctrine by extracting it from various scripture verses. We receive the doctrine as it was deposited “once for all to the church” through the paradosis. Through this Apostolic Teaching, we then can read and understand the scriptures from the point of view they were written.

We do not read them through the lenses of an attorney born 1600 years after the fact, who decided to jettison the doctrines of the faith in favor of his own creation.

Anything there about having lost a relationship with Christ? We respond to Christ with fear and trembling. God is the one who does the work. Yes?

Yes, it is God who is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

Why do you suppose Jesus makes reference to not blotting names out of His book?

Rev 3:5
5 If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life;

What is it in this passage that makes you think Jesus was lying?

Why does He mention this if it is NOT possible to have ones name blotted out?

Wow... I don't think so.  I'm a Calvinst and although we wouldn't frame the argument as 'once saved, always saved, we believe that God will keep us as that's what scripture says.

The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Catholics, too, believe that God will keep us.

However, we also hold to the Apostolic teaching that, though no one can snatch us out of his Hand, we can certainly bite the hand that feeds us, JUMP out, and run away.

We refer to it as “perseverence of the Saints”. Romans is exquisitely clear on this. We don’t however believe that salvation is necessarily a one time event. We believe it is sealed there if they are truly honest. But people who do not seek to live a Godly life couldn’t have been sincere about the Lord in the first place, so we’d call that a moment of weakness and not a truly life-changing event.

Your arguement is self refuting, since you cited an excellent example above of how Paul struggles against the ungodly elements in himself.

I don’t even think you would purport that Paul’s conversion was “insincere”.

People who truly accept the Lord WANT to do the right thing even though we are often emcumbered with sin.

Yes, this is Catholic.

Except that the Apostles taught we can choose life or death, and if we continue in sin, we are not “in Christ”.

 

[guanophore]

If you want to understand salvation consider the parable of the sower. How many people in the various categories in the parable would consider themselves saved? I would imagine that many of them consider themselves saved, but in truth only the ones that bear fruit are saved, and not all of them bear the same amount of fruit. It is abundantly clear in Scripture that those who bear fruit will have no condemnation upon them.

Those who bear fruit in the Lord do not live in fear of losing their salvation, but rather rejoice in the love of God that was poured out into their hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to them. Some might think this is absurd, but to us that are saved it is the power of God!

I hope you dont’ think I was suggesting that anyone should “live in fear of losing their salvation”. God has not given us a Spirit of fear, but of power, love, and discipline. We are to walk before Him in joyful obedience, being light and salt to the world. The possiblity that one can fall from grace need not produce a life of fear.

 

[guanophore]

I love God and believe in Christ. At a minimum I bear the fruits of repentance because I am not the man I once was. I strive to follow my Lord in all things. I am not always successful, but I am His nonetheless. I abide in God’s grace and never take that for granted. Jesus said that the work of God was to believe in Him who He sent. If we truly do that in faith, the rest will fall into place.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

  What astonishes me is that so many people who identify themselves as Christian don’t seem to know whether or not they are a child of God.  Are you a child of God?  If so, why are you so doubtful?

I think this is a result of people being improperly educated in the faith. God wants us all to walk as you do, by grace, through faith.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

I am a child of God for sure but I recognize that I have choses to make everyday which bring me closer or farther away from God. Jesus gave His disciples the authority to hold bound or to loose sins for a reason. If we are OSAS there is no need for such authority. If I steal your wallet and confess and you forgive me thats wonderful but I still have an obligation to give the wallet and the money it might have contained back to you. Once you have forgiven me am I then incapable of ever stealing again?

What astonishes me is that people recognize they arent perfect even when saved yet believe that they would be fit for heaven even though their sin brings the pain of impurity upon them.

Make no mistake about it I have no salvation without God but until I made pure I am not fit for heaven

You respond as though you are on the outside looking in. Do you honestly believe that you can work enough or suffer enough to ever be perfect? Christ is perfect and by His grace our sins are imputed to Him and He put them to death on the cross. Disciples of Christ are not perfect nor do they willfully sin. How can one willfully sin when they possess the love of God? Sin for a disciple of Christ is a constant struggle, not a willful acceptance. We are not perfect; we are made perfect in Christ.

I hope you realize that the disciples of Christ (us who follow Him) are of the household of God; fellow citizens with the saints of heaven. In essence we are already in heaven. We have entered the fold through the Gate and no one can take us from our Shepherd’s hand.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

The type of plants mentioned in this parable have one thing in common with man it takes the whole of the life cycle to bear this fruit.

It’s not about the plants, it’s about the soil. The soil represents the heart.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

How do make the jump in this subject to “doubt”? Catholics hope for salvation, hope is not doubt.
Hope keeps us from presumption and forces me to continue living for Christ. “Knowing for sure” or “once saved always saved” (concepts not found in the Bible or in Christian history up to the Protestant revolt) makes me lazy in my Chriistian walk, flippant toward sin in my life, and most dangerous of all, makes me a little god.

Your hope is like playing the lottery; you buy a ticket and hope you win. Christian hope is an expectation of what is sure to come.

Are you going to tell me that Paul “hoped” there would be a resurrection (Acts 24:15), or was he was sure there would be a resurrection?

I share this hope with Paul, and like him I strive to have a conscience without offence toward God and man. So why do you imply I am lazy in my Christian walk?

 

[ignatius777]

You respond as though you are on the outside looking in. Do you honestly believe that you can work enough or suffer enough to ever be perfect? Christ is perfect and by His grace our sins are imputed to Him and He put them to death on the cross. Disciples of Christ are not perfect nor do they willfully sin. How can one willfully sin when they possess the love of God? Sin for a disciple of Christ is a constant struggle, not a willful acceptance. We are not perfect; we are made perfect in Christ.

I hope you realize that the disciples of Christ (us who follow Him) are of the household of God; fellow citizens with the saints of heaven. In essence we are already in heaven. We have entered the fold through the Gate and no one can take us from our Shepherd’s hand.

No thats how protestants interpret things, to fit their own understanding. The VERY first words of my response to you were that I am a child of God for sure but alas you either ignored it or misunderstand it. The prodigal son is a perfect example of our being with the father and our abadoning him through our willful sin. The father NEVER abandons us. You need to realize the true beauty of that story and the power of God’s love and reconciliation no matter what we do but make no mistake that prodigal son would have stayed slopping pigs as long a she chose to do it.

If someone invites me to a formal dinner party and I show up in shorts and sandals am I not invited? Of course not but am I suitable to attend the formal dinner party in such attire? How long it takes for me to be properly attired is mostly up to me. So it is with my getting into heaven. Please stop thinking like a protestant

 

[ignatius777]

You respond as though you are on the outside looking in. Do you honestly believe that you can work enough or suffer enough to ever be perfect? Christ is perfect and by His grace our sins are imputed to Him and He put them to death on the cross. Disciples of Christ are not perfect nor do they willfully sin. How can one willfully sin when they possess the love of God? Sin for a disciple of Christ is a constant struggle, not a willful acceptance. We are not perfect; we are made perfect in Christ.

I hope you realize that the disciples of Christ (us who follow Him) are of the household of God; fellow citizens with the saints of heaven. In essence we are already in heaven. We have entered the fold through the Gate and no one can take us from our Shepherd’s hand.

So we are not perfect but we are made perfect in Christ. So when we accept Christ we are no longer sinners correct? Or are we still sinners and our sins just dont count anymore because we are made perfect in Christ? So can I do as I please once I accept Jesus? Unless you live a sinless life sin makes you impure and as scripture says nothing impure can be in heaven. So are we sinless sinners or sinful sinners who rely on the grace of God to accept us back when we can recognize the sin we freely chose and ask for forgiveness just like the prodigal son?

 

[ignatius777]

Your hope is like playing the lottery; you buy a ticket and hope you win. Christian hope is an expectation of what is sure to come.

Are you going to tell me that Paul “hoped” there would be a resurrection (Acts 24:15), or was he was sure there would be a resurrection?

I share this hope with Paul, and like him I strive to have a conscience without offence toward God and man. So why do you imply I am lazy in my Christian walk?

Even a winning lottery ticket is of no use if you have ripped it up and burned it. We are free to chose that with our salvation because my sinful human nature rips up and burns that salvation ticket everyday. Thats why Jesus gave the disciples the authority to hold sins bound or loose them otherwise it makes no sense. Just like the father i nthe prodigal son He welcomes us back lovingly as soon as we realize the sperartion we create between Him and ourselves

 

[Michael1978]

You respond as though you are on the outside looking in. Do you honestly believe that you can work enough or suffer enough to ever be perfect? Christ is perfect and by His grace our sins are imputed to Him and He put them to death on the cross. Disciples of Christ are not perfect nor do they willfully sin. How can one willfully sin when they possess the love of God? Sin for a disciple of Christ is a constant struggle, not a willful acceptance. We are not perfect; we are made perfect in Christ.

I hope you realize that the disciples of Christ (us who follow Him) are of the household of God; fellow citizens with the saints of heaven. In essence we are already in heaven. We have entered the fold through the Gate and no one can take us from our Shepherd’s hand.

St. Paul struggled with sin. Romans 7:14-25. Christ’s atonement for our sins on the cross is indeed perfect and there are no works that we can do apart from that grace that will save us. Indeed, the Bible tells us that our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Isaiah 64:4-9. But at the same time, we know that faith without works is dead. James 2:14-26. You’re right that no one can take us from our Shepherd’s hand, but we can certainly willfully leave. John 6:66, Luke 8:11-14.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus is the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Him shall never die?

Do you believe this?

It looks to me like you have an opportunity to answer the question. It’s not difficult to answer this from a Protestant point of view. Brian quoted scripture and at least in my mind, that is an answer.

Brian and Grace –
Believing in Christ doesn’t simply mean that there is an intellectual ascent. It means cooperating with his grace by remaining steadfast in faith. The Scriptures CANNOT contradict themselves. They MUST be in harmony with one another.

The Bible is replete with examples of REMAINING faithful and that salvation is indeed a process – not a slam dunk:

Romans 8:24-25
To hope is the way we are saved. But if we saw what we hoped for, there would no longer be hope: how can you hope for what is already seen? So we hope for what we do not see and we will receive it through patient hope.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. ***
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. ***

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

Matt. 24:13
**"He who endures to the end will be saved" **(NOT “saved”, but “WILL BE” saved)

Matthew 10:22
**All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. **

1 John 2:24
**See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. **

Revelation 3:5
**He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. **
(You can’t blot out what was never there in the first place)

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(You can’t take away what was never there in the first place)

 

[elvisman]

If you want to understand salvation consider the parable of the sower. How many people in the various categories in the parable would consider themselves saved? I would imagine that many of them consider themselves saved, but in truth only the ones that bear fruit are saved, and not all of them bear the same amount of fruit. It is abundantly clear in Scripture that those who bear fruit will have no condemnation upon them.

Those who bear fruit in the Lord do not live in fear of losing their salvation, but rather rejoice in the love of God that was poured out into their hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to them. Some might think this is absurd, but to us that are saved it is the power of God!

That is an extremely prideful statement. When Paul speaks of “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12) – he is countering the attitude that you just espoused.

There are those who bear fruit that will be rejected on the Day of Judgment – to whom Christ will say, “I never knew you.” (Matt. 7:23)

**The bottom line is that you are not truly saved until you are in heaven so don’t count your chicken before they hatch. You CAN fall - and probably DO fall from time to time. And when you do - there is no forgiveness without repentance. **

This is why Paul says:
Romans 8:24-25
To hope is the way we are saved. But if we saw what we hoped for, there would no longer be hope: how can you hope for what is already seen? So we hope for what we do not see and we will receive it through patient hope.

 

[ignatius777]

It’s not about the plants, it’s about the soil. The soil represents the heart.

Even good soil goes bad when over used and when not properly rested and nourished. OSAS doesnt make sense in any real life situation and and it doesnt make sense in any spiritual life situation.

 

[FMX500]

Jesus founded the Catholic Church, not Peter. Come to the Light! Let go of the darkness you are carrying!

Guanophore, you militant you!

I don’t know what to say, but just keep going.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

So we are not perfect but we are made perfect in Christ. So when we accept Christ we are no longer sinners correct? Or are we still sinners and our sins just dont count anymore because we are made perfect in Christ? So can I do as I please once I accept Jesus? Unless you live a sinless life sin makes you impure and as scripture says nothing impure can be in heaven. So are we sinless sinners or sinful sinners who rely on the grace of God to accept us back when we can recognize the sin we freely chose and ask for forgiveness just like the prodigal son?

I want to point out to you what I think is the crux of the problem. You asked the question, “So can I do as I please once I accept Jesus?” My answer is, I hope you do! Because if what pleases you once you have entered into His grace is contrary to what pleases God, then you might want to examine whether or not you truly believe in Christ. If the sins you committed while apart from Christ do not abhor you as you struggle with them in Christ, how can you say you are Christ’s?

So what pleases you Ignatius? Does sin please you? I would venture to guess not. So why do you suggest that we who are confident in our salvation would embrace sin?

 

[Brian_Culliton]

St. Paul struggled with sin. Romans 7:14-25. Christ’s atonement for our sins on the cross is indeed perfect and there are no works that we can do apart from that grace that will save us. Indeed, the Bible tells us that our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Isaiah 64:4-9. But at the same time, we know that faith without works is dead. James 2:14-26. You’re right that no one can take us from our Shepherd’s hand, but we can certainly willfully leave. John 6:66, Luke 8:11-14.

Why would you leave?

You referenced disciples who left Jesus because they didn’t believe in Him. What does that have to do with those who do believe in Him?