It looks to me like you have an opportunity to answer the question. It’s not difficult to answer this from a Protestant point of view. Brian quoted scripture and at least in my mind, that is an answer.No offense but its been my experience that most protestants either cant or wont answer questions.
The question, however, is what the Catholic teaching on this matter is. I don’t think this particular quote nor your series of quotes in post #17 address the question at hand. I may be wrong but it looks like you and Brian may be more inclined to discuss the **non-Catholic **teaching which would be a subject for another thread.It looks to me like you have an opportunity to answer the question. It’s not difficult to answer this from a Protestant point of view. Brian quoted scripture and at least in my mind, that is an answer.
Did I maybe misunderstand your statement here?
If you have other questions, I will answer you. I don’t argue with Catholics as I don’t find it productive, but I will give you an answer.
The problem is the questions dont address the issue of OSAS. They represent what my experience with protestants has most often been like…they dont answer questions they just preach.It looks to me like you have an opportunity to answer the question. It’s not difficult to answer this from a Protestant point of view. Brian quoted scripture and at least in my mind, that is an answer.
Did I maybe misunderstand your statement here?
If you have other questions, I will answer you. I don’t argue with Catholics as I don’t find it productive, but I will give you an answer.
osasjude 1:24 (new american standard bible)
24(a)now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to (b)make you stand in the presence of his glory blameless with (c)great joy, osas
hebrews 12:2 (new american standard bible)
2fixing our eyes on jesus, the (a)author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him (b)endured the cross, (c)despising the shame, and has (d)sat down at the right hand of the throne of god. osas
hebrews 7:25 (new american standard bible)
25therefore he is able also to (a)save forever those who (b)draw near to god through him, since he always lives to (c)make intercession for them. osas
john 10:28-29 (new american standard bible)
28and i give (a)eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and (b)**no one will snatch them out of my hand. ** 29"[a]my father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the father’s hand. osas
john 5:24 (new american standard bible)
24"truly, truly, i** say to you, he who hears my word, and (a)believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and (b)does not come into judgment, but has (c)passed out of death into life. osas**
ephesians 1:13-14 (new american standard bible)
13in him, you also, after listening to (a)the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation**–having also believed, you were (b)sealed in him with (c)the holy spirit of promise, 14who is (d)given as a pledge of (e)our inheritance, with a view to the (f)redemption of (g)god’s own possession, (h)to the praise of his glory.** osas
philippians 1:6 (new american standard bible)
6for i am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until (a)the day of christ jesus.
The issue is OSAS what I said was the question put forth have nothing to do with OSAS. If Paul was so certain of his salvation he would not have to work it out with fear and trembling. There is nothing to fear or tremble over if there is nothing to lose.I can accept that you don’t think this is a OSAS issue. But nothing could be further from the truth. Scripture teaches over and over (as I have shown) that we can’t lose our salvation, provided however, our call upon the Lord was sincere in the first place.
These are all wonderful and all rightly claim that when we believe we are saved. Nothing here though says we cant fall away and lose that certainty if we fail or cease to believe.Jude 1:24 (New American Standard Bible)
24(A)Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to (B)make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with (C)great joy,
Hebrews 12:2 (New American Standard Bible)
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the (A)author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him (B)endured the cross, (C)despising the shame, and has (D)sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 7:25 (New American Standard Bible)
25Therefore He is able also to (A)save forever those who (B)draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to (C)make intercession for them.
John 10:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
28and I give (A)eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and (B)no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"[a]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 5:24 (New American Standard Bible)
24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and (A)believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and (B)does not come into judgment, but has (C)passed out of death into life.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (New American Standard Bible)
13In Him, you also, after listening to (A)the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were (B)sealed in Him with (C)the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is (D)given as a pledge of (E)our inheritance, with a view to the (F)redemption of (G)God’s own possession, (H)to the praise of His glory.
Philippians 1:6 (New American Standard Bible)
6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until (A)the day of Christ Jesus.
Then explain:I can accept that you don’t think this is a OSAS issue. But nothing could be further from the truth. Scripture teaches over and over (as I have shown) that we can’t lose our salvation, provided however, our call upon the Lord was sincere in the first place.
I can’t believe what I’m seeing here. Do you understand that the word “fear” doesn’t have anything to be with being afraid of God. Far from it. It’s about awe when we consider our place within the Master’s universe and the respect for authority we owe God. To say nothing of the fact that Paul is talking about slaves in this passage and not a believers path of finding the Lord.Then explain:
Matthew 7: 21:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Or Romans 11:17-22
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,** provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. **
Being cut off…equates to being removed from God, hence losing your salvation.
Pardon me, but where does Romans 11 talk about slaves?I can’t believe what I’m seeing here. Do you understand that the word “fear” doesn’t have anything to be with being afraid of God. Far from it. It’s about awe when we consider our place within the Master’s universe and the respect for authority we owe God.
Romans 11 is a chapter about what? Do you even know? Quoting scripture within the context has always been important, is it not? Picking and choosing scripture can get people into real problems that can lead to spiritual darkness and it’s a dishonest way to handle the Holy Scriptures.
What would you say if I were to quote Luke 22 to try to prove that Peter wasn’t thought of more highly than the other diciples to prove that Peter did not found the church. You be calling me a heretic and saying that I was using scripture out of context. So tell me, how is using scripture outside of its context helpful?
I suggest you read all of Romans 11. You will see that it talks of the “saved” or chosen people and the gentiles, who will or can be grafted or “saved” into the vine. And what I qouted you makes no distinction that both the “saved” and gentiles can be cut off from the vine, or lose your salvation if one do not persevere, and continue sinning.To say nothing of the fact that Paul is talking about slaves in this passage and not a believers path of finding the Lord.
Malcolm Smith (a charismatic Episcopal priest) used to call the words of this verse, “ye shall be as gods”, ‘The Lie’.For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Gen. 3:5 (KJV).
The Lie.“ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
Wow… I don’t think so. I’m a Calvinst and although we wouldn’t frame the argument as 'once saved, always saved, we believe that God will keep us as that’s what scripture says. We refer to it as “perseverence of the Saints”. Romans is exquisitely clear on this. We don’t however believe that salvation is necessarily a one time event. We believe it is sealed there if they are truly honest. But people who do not seek to live a Godly life couldn’t have been sincere about the Lord in the first place, so we’d call that a moment of weakness and not a truly life-changing event. People who truly accept the Lord WANT to do the right thing even though we are often emcumbered with sin.OSAS started from Calvinism. Although Calvinists disown it.
A person can show no fruit in his or her Christian life because of the **‘event’ **of salvation when they got their lifeboat out of Hell and their ticket to Heaven. This ‘event’ is sealed and the Christian is “Once saved always saved”. What happens? I lose my fear of God. Why must I live a holy life? Why get upset over sin? The ‘event’ made me right. It creates a spiritual laziness. A presumption.
It creates a dilemma that must be explained. The Christian who “Falls away”.
In order to explain a “Christian” who falls into sin or has no spiritual fruit, they come up with another phrase: “never saved in the first place”. (NSITFP)
The ‘event’ really didn’t happen and must be replaced with a genuine ‘event’.
It is the ‘event’ that is at the heart of it all.
The foundation for many who accept OSAS is a fear of falling away. If salvation is a ‘one time “crisis” “event”’ that is in the past tense, and I believe I can never fall away because God said so (or putting words into God’s mouth) than I can never be convinced otherwise. To think otherwise is to doubt God.
Once I 'know 'I’m as ‘sure for Heaven as Jesus’, (actually heard a preacher say that once) I sit on my laurels and pretty much do nothing. Good works? Why? I’m heading for Heaven. It stifles any good done on this earth the end has already been decided.
IF HOWEVER, my entire foundation of salvation is incorrect, (a process, not a one-time event), than what the believer in OSAS is shaken. The whole house of cards comes crashing down.
You just repeated every point of the post, thus proving my point.Wow… I don’t think so. I’m a Calvinst and although we wouldn’t frame the argument as 'once saved, always saved, we believe that God will keep us as that’s what scripture says. We refer to it as “perseverence of the Saints”. Romans is exquisitely clear on this. We don’t however believe that salvation is necessarily a one time event. We believe** it is sealed there if they are truly honest**. But people who do not seek to live a Godly life couldn’t have been sincere about the Lord in the first place, so we’d call that a moment of weakness and not a truly life-changing event. People who truly accept the Lord WANT to do the right thing even though we are often emcumbered with sin.
This is why Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will “take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city” (Rev 22:19).Non-denominational Protestant here. I’ve been open to listening to the Catholic point of view, reading, listening to Catholic Answers Live for about four years now. I feel I am on the verge of conversion, but I seem to have one thing that I’d really like to have cleared up before going forward.
Here’s my question. I’ve heard a couple of references to the fact that Protestants believe that once saved, always saved and that that is contradictory to Catholic belief. Protestants believe that our sins are covered; Catholics believe, as I understand it, that nothing unholy or sinful will be able to stand in God’s presence, that we must continually work towards holiness.
Could someone give me a bare bones bullet list of what Catholics believe on this issue? I am asking for something this simple because I seem to get lost in my research, wading through tons of apologetics against seemingly centuries old arguments, none of which I am familiar with. A simple bullet list of what is truth would give me something to hold on to and refer back to as I study this issue.
With much gratitude!
From my perspective it’s just an attempt to shirk any personal responsibility and to make it all “100% God’s problem and job” to get one to heaven. So it becomes: “Just believe in Jesus AND believe in the doctrinal theory that one can’t ever be estranged from Jesus by mere sin or anything one can do.”This is why Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will “take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city” (Rev 22:19).