Once Saved Always Saved?

[tqualey]

Hi, Anthony V,

Even though Sig may not be interested, I am!

I had really thought he was going to move beyone his one-liner responses … but, I was wrong on that.

My wife and I will be praying for you as pray and think about your vocation.

God bless

You’re trying to tie two separate things together.
There is the sin committed (the actual sin), and its effects (devoid of grace). Srictly speaking, sin is not a noun, just a verb. Don’t confuse the two! Just as darkness is not the presence of “darkness”, but rather the lack of light, so sin (in all practical purposes as a noun) is not the presence of a new primal power, but rather the lack of grace.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death*; and so death*** passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.**
*Sin is not an entity. It is an action, whose effects are devoid of grace. There is no new introduction of principality of dominion. It is just the action that has entered the world, because it is original sin. If this passage was speaking literally, then Satan’s sin against God would have created this principality of sin.
**Death is by lack of grace through effects of original sin.
***Further emphasized here, the passage is describing death itself as an entity. This is personification, not to be taken literally. Sin is not an entity, and death is not an entity. They are ways to describe lack of grace. They are effects, not principalities!

Gen 4:7
If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: Its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.

Again, personification. Here’s the footnote from New American Bible (revised edition) from the USCCB website:

 

[Farsight001]

Cat Herder’s the one making the charge. He/she should know what post he/she is talking about because I have no idea what Cat Herder’s talking about. He can’t refer me to a specific post. Hope that helps.

Yes, because he has no idea what YOU’RE talking about, and has asked for clarification.

I’m both answering and asking questions, and haven’t proselytized in at all that I’m aware of.

There are no less than a dozen questions in the past few pages that you have been asked multiple times each, and have neglected to answer, often responding simply by quoting the question and asking us the exact same thing. Cut the game. You know full well what you’re doing.

 

[Pitcharan]

The Bible demolishes OSAS at the very outset. In Genesis we had the Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge. Our first parents had the freedom to make their choice.

The most explicit demolition of OSAS may be found in books of Moses, when God offers the Israelites both Life and Death, urging them to choose Life.

When St. Paul himself was unsure of his own salvation; how can the OSAS thinkers be so sure of their salvation? “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize”. (1Cor 9:27) * “—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.* (Php 2:12c)

Now, consider the favorite quotes of OSAS believers
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Rom 3:27-31)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.(Eph 2:8-9)

In the above verses, Paul is only echoing our Lord’s teaching that justification is not achieved by ‘observing the Law’ but by ‘fulfilling the Law’. It is so obvious that Paul uses the term ‘works’ to mean ‘observing the Law’.

When the Law was revealed through Moses the means to fulfill the Law was also revealed together with it. The stiff-necked Israelites neglected the means and foolishly believed in mere observance of the Law.

Our Lord exposed them and emphasised the means for fulfilling the Law, viz. "Love of God and neighbor’

Faith and Good works are inseparable and interlinked. This verse will make it clear:
“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.” (John 14:12)

Those who proclaim OSAS may still be right if this is what they meant: After the last judgement, once a person is saved it will be so for eternity

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tqualey
Hi, Sig,

You obviously didn’t understand what I said because this is in perfect agreement with it.
Let’s review.

You are saved by grace through baptism, not by works but merely by the desire to align yourself with the will of god… But you must stay in the state of grace by doing works of love and avoiding mortal sin. If you fall from grace through sin, you will be condemned unless you reconcile sacramentally through confession. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven (although some time in purgatory may be necessary). There is nothing Tom says above that is contrary to this. He is merely pointing out that once saved, you must do works of love, carrying your own cross, to stay in the state of grace. All of the CAtholics on this thread have been consistent with this teaching, If it appears to you that we are not, we need to better explain to you what we mean.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

You have been ignoring and dismissing my posts and really just sniping away at everyone.

Are you interested in Catholic answers or not? You’re here to engage in dialogue - if not, then let me repeat the question by Paul C: why are you here?

God bless

OK.

My question was asked of you specifically in regard to your failure to understand plain English, a charge with which you incorrectly charged me. Remember?

 

[paul_c]

OK.

My question was asked of you specifically in regard to your failure to understand plain English, a charge with which you incorrectly charged me. Remember?

I should have been more charitible but your ongoing comments continue to show that you didnt understand what I said… I tried again in the last post.

 

[Sig]

Hi, Sig,

You have been ignoring and dismissing my posts and really just sniping away at everyone.

Are you interested in Catholic answers or not? You’re here to engage in dialogue - if not, then let me repeat the question by Paul C: why are you here?

God bless

I’ve reponded to something you said in your last post, Tom, and am awaiting a reply from you.

 

[Sig]

I should have been more charitible but your ongoing comments continue to show that you didnt understand what I said… I tried again in the last post.

I understood you perfectly, Paul.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pitcharan,

Great post!

Truly OSAS is one of the most disappointing traditions of man in a long list of disappointing experiements for man to cook up his own religion.

And for those who claim to be Catholic and doubt that we have free will - Pitcharan’s post should clear up that misunderstanding.

God bless

The Bible demolishes OSAS at the very outset. In Genesis we had the Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge. Our first parents had the freedom to make their choice.

The most explicit demolition of OSAS may be found in books of Moses, when God offers the Israelites both Life and Death, urging them to choose Life.

When St. Paul himself was unsure of his own salvation; how can the OSAS thinkers be so sure of their salvation? “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize”. (1Cor 9:27) * “—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.* (Php 2:12c)

Now, consider the favorite quotes of OSAS believers
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Rom 3:27-31)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.(Eph 2:8-9)

In the above verses, Paul is only echoing our Lord’s teaching that justification is not achieved by ‘observing the Law’ but by ‘fulfilling the Law’. It is so obvious that Paul uses the term ‘works’ to mean ‘observing the Law’.

When the Law was revealed through Moses the means to fulfill the Law was also revealed together with it. The stiff-necked Israelites neglected the means and foolishly believed in mere observance of the Law.

Our Lord exposed them and emphasised the means for fulfilling the Law, viz. "Love of God and neighbor’

Faith and Good works are inseparable and interlinked. This verse will make it clear:
“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.” (John 14:12)

Those who proclaim OSAS may still be right if this is what they meant: After the last judgement, once a person is saved it will be so for eternity

 

[Anthony_V]

Hi, Anthony V,

Even though Sig may not be interested, I am!

I had really thought he was going to move beyone his one-liner responses … but, I was wrong on that.

My wife and I will be praying for you as pray and think about your vocation.

God bless

Tee-hee thanks (blush)
I just like teaching and preaching! God willing, I hope to end up with an OP in about 10 years. It was his idea first. All of it really. I got upset when he broke the news to me that he wanted me to be celibate And then even more so when he wanted me to pursue a religious vocation! Anyway, thanks again. For what offense Sig has taken against you, I apologize on his behalf. I ask that you assume only the best in him-- for his best interest and your own.

 

[paul_c]

I understood you perfectly, Paul.

So why do you keep stating that other Catholics are in disagreement when they are simply reiterating what I said in their own terms?

Understand this. Most of the misunderstanding on this thread is driven by the faulty view that being saved is the equivalent of going to heaven. It is not.

1. You are saved when you recieve God’s grace in baptism.
2. From that point on, you must do the will of God to remain in the state of grace.
   3 If you fall from Grace, you will be condemned unless you repent sacramentally.
3. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven.

→ All of the verses you have been quoting support sentence 1.
→ the verses from the other Catholics on this board have been supporting sentence 2.
Once you accept that, we’ll give you the verses that support sentences 3 and 4.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Anthony V,

Many, many years ago I was taught philosophy and religion by the Dominicans - and, I still admire those men to this day.

At a time when priests and religious are all getting painted with the sexual abuse brush, I want to be out there saying, I had 16 years of Catholic Education - all the way through my baccalaureate and never once did I even hear of a disturbing word or seen a questionable action involving priests or religious.

As best as I can tell, while the damage to the integrity of Christ’s Salvation Message has been great, it was caused by a very small number of people. The sufferings of the victims is on-going and they surely need our prayers… as do these men who abused them.

All of us, in our own vocations must proclaim the Love of Christ to all.

God bless

Tee-hee thanks (blush)
I just like teaching and preaching! God willing, I hope to end up with an OP in about 10 years. It was his idea first. All of it really. I got upset when he broke the news to me that he wanted me to be celibate And then even more so when he wanted me to pursue a religious vocation! Anyway, thanks again. For what offense Sig has taken against you, I apologize on his behalf. I ask that you assume only the best in him-- for his best interest and your own.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

Return to Matthew 25 and Christ tells what He wants us to do (now, that would be ‘works’)

Works of the Law - well a significant issue is circumcision and the very first crisis experienced by the Catholic Church was caused by the Judiazers who insisted that every convert, first had to become a Jew and observe the Mosaic Law - and then observe the Law of Christ.

For a further - and very well written - explanation on Works of the Law, here is a link: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.HTM

Now, I think that since several people have been challenging you on various statements you have made on OSAS, it would be appropriate to give a thoughtful response - which will take several sentences and not the terse and quite dismissive responsives that you have been giving. Now, I am counting on you to explain your position in like of this link - so, please read it and then comment being mindful of what others have asked.

God bless

God bless

Name all of the works you do that are not “Works of the Law,” please…

 

[PRmerger]

Scripture says salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works.

Catholics give a hearty AMEN! to that.

However, Catholics do not just take one verse in isolation; rather we take the entirety of God’s Word and apply it to our soteriology.

Again: [SIGN]“The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness.”–Steve Ray[/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

Well then, there you have it.

Excellent! Then you are quite Catholic in that you acknowledge the authority of Sacred Tradition in discerning for you what is theopneustos and what is not!

 

[PRmerger]

You can easily clear yourself by producing the requested post #, but you won’t. I’ve asked you to repeatedly, but you won’t.

What is being asked is for your position on works.

IOW: what is your interpretation of this verse:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

and this:

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:6-7[/BIBLEDRB]

as they apply to our salvation and works.

 

[PRmerger]

Name all of the works you do that are not “Works of the Law,” please…

These:
[BIBLEDRB]Matt 5:3-12[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Sig]

So why do you keep stating that other Catholics are in disagreement when they are simply reiterating what I said in their own terms?

Understand this. Most of the misunderstanding on this thread is driven by the faulty view that being saved is the equivalent of going to heaven. It is not.

1. You are saved when you recieve God’s grace in baptism.
2. From that point on, you must do the will of God to remain in the state of grace.
   3 If you fall from Grace, you will be condemned unless you repent sacramentally.
3. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven.

→ All of the verses you have been quoting support sentence 1.
→ the verses from the other Catholics on this board have been supporting sentence 2.
Once you accept that, we’ll give you the verses that support sentences 3 and 4.

Look, Paul, PRmerger has admitted to not stating some things clearly, and has restated those things, and you have made a statement that the two of you are in agreement. I have neither argued over, nor commented on those subsequent statements with you that I can recall, except to say that I understood you the first time. Folks here can read, and they can make up their own minds concerning it if they’re interested.

 

[Pitcharan]

Look, Paul, PRmerger has admitted to not stating some things clearly, and has restated those things, and you have made a statement that the two of you are in agreement. I have neither argued over, nor commented on those subsequent statements with you that I can recall, except to say that I understood you the first time. Folks here can read, and they can make up their own minds concerning it if they’re interested.

Now OSAS is being abandoned slyly to digress into this new invention: CONTRADICTORY CATHOLICS?

 

[PRmerger]

Look, Paul, PRmerger has admitted to not stating some things clearly, and has restated those things, and you have made a statement that the two of you are in agreement.

Yep. And I have confirmed this. And so has Tom.

So it would benefit the dialogue if you ceased making the claim “You Catholics keep disagreeing with each other, and you claim that it’s us Protestants who can’t stay united.”