One brave women who said NO to Muhammed.

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… Aisha was the only wife of Muhammad who had not been married prior to marrying Muhammad,

Aisha (p) was engaged to a man But he refused to accepted Islam , so engagement was broken. It proves that she was already matured enough for marriage.

She never complained about her marriage. It’s a pity how non Muslims condemned a blessed marriage which took place more than a thousand years ago.

They don’t bother much about thousands & thousands school girls in the west , who are either becoming illegal mothers or killing babies but they complain against a legal marriage.

 

[cathopologist]

I’m pretty sure any at least half-way normal decent human being, and the vast majority of ALL Muslim men, wouldn’t EVER “beat the kahoona out of their wives” for ANY reason at all. And in fact that’s such a gross and disgusting overgeneralization… seriously, who gave you the right to stereotype muslim men that way? Most of the Muslim men I know wouldn’t hurt a bug let alone their wives!

You may have a point here. However, the vast majority of Muslim men will beat their wives eventually as it is sanctioned in the Qur’an. Various Imams have also spoken about wife-beating and “how it’s supposed to be done correctly.”

Muhammad never even shook the hands of women who were not related to him. The hadith which was quoted really confused me, for a reason inJESUS brought up. It really actually sounds like the “woman” he is speaking to is just a girl, under the age of puberty, and not a grown woman. I’m not even sure that his request was sincere or not a joke or something. There are just too many questions about it for me to draw any conclusions.

At the very least, we know that Muhammad certainly never forced anyone to marry him.

Nah. He simply loved Jewish women and Christian Copts and had blessings from Allah to marry as many women he wanted. Allah is so good that he even allowed Mohammad to marry his step-son’s wife. They were all grown women and never felt obligated to marry the man.

 

[cathopologist]

Cathopologist, you are spreading lies and bad ideas which are coming out of your bad brain. You are speculating, inventing things. Please look towards your own Jesus who did many bad things.

planten, only a madman would say the things you say.

 

[planten]

I did Planten. Believe me. I am not a kind of person who would like to take things for granted. I did my research to see things before I believe. I did not find any bad things Jesus did in the bible, not a single thing. Perhaps you can show me where both in the bible and Quran.

Swariffin, Please ask Cathopologist who is specialist in finding bad things in the sacred books. My post was in reply to Cathopologist only. If Cath will not find anything then I may do it for the Cath. Not for you.

 

[planten]

You may have a point here. However, the vast majority of Muslim men will beat their wives eventually as it is sanctioned in the Qur’an. Various Imams have also spoken about wife-beating and “how it’s supposed to be done correctly.”

That is assumption. I assume that many christians heavily drunk come home with the horrible smell of booze. They do try to pick up querrel with their wives and beat them up sometimes. Things are reported in the press.

If there is no permission or instruction in the bible for christians to beat their wives then that is another weakness of the bible that it does not give guidance in marital matters. Bible did not guide the church or church did not guide the bible about divorce too. So the christians had to invent divorce in the legislature.
.

Nah. He simply loved Jewish women and Christian Copts and had blessings from Allah to marry as many women he wanted. Allah is so good that he even allowed Mohammad to marry his step-son’s wife. They were all grown women and never felt obligated to marry the man.

There was no harm. You could have got at least one genuine wife for your Jesus too. It was not forbidden. And Jesus was a man too. Why you people disallowed even one wife to Jesus?

Step son is no son. But still step son has some status. But a supposed son (Jesus) who is not any kind of son. Where does he stand? Islam told every one that there is no son except the real son. Step son or adopted son is not a son at all.

That was a very good important teaching to put the mankind on realistic lines instead of some false dogmas, myths. Muhammad broke the bad tradition of supposed sons.

 

[planten]

It wouldn’t be the first time Mohammed married a girl under age of puberty, would it Sister Amy?

In civilized countries, an elderly man marrying a 6 year old is illegal…and having sex with a 9 year old is rape. A nine year old does not have the mental capacity to make such a decision…

When we are talking about the ages of various respected personalities, let us discuss the age of Mary when Joseph the carpentar took her away from the temple to his own home. I hope she was not more than 12 years old. Just Imagine !!

 

[Angelos]

When we are talking about the ages of various respected personalities, let us discuss the age of Mary when Joseph the carpentar took her away from the temple to his own home. I hope she was not more than 12 years old. Just Imagine !!

Here I am citing reference to debunk your silly assertion and highlighting the contrast between Joseph the carpentar and your Mohammad:

The apocryphal Gospel of James VIII: 1-3
And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as a dove that is nurtured: and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old, there was a council of the priests, saying: Behold Mary is become twelve years old in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her ? lest she pollute the sanctuary of the Lord. And they said unto the high priest: Thou standest over the altar of the Lord. Enter in and pray concerning her: And whatsoever the Lord shall reveal to thee, that let us do. And the high priest took the vestment with the twelve bells and went in unto the Holy of Holies and prayed concerning her. And lo, an angel of tile Lord appeared saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias~ go forth and assemble them that are widowers of the people, and let them bring every man a rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went forth over all the country round about Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all men ran thereto.

This passage makes clear that Mary left the temple at the age of 12 because She had to!

IX:1-2
And Joseph cast down his adze and ran to meet them, and when they were gathered together they went to the high priest and took their rods with them. And he took the rods of them all and went into the temple and prayed. And when he had finished the prayer he took the rods and went forth and gave them back to them: and there was no sign upon them. But Joseph received the last rod: and 1o, a dove came forth of the rod and flew upon the bead of Joseph. And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself. And Joseph refused, saying: I have sons, and I am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel.

We see that Joseph does not want to take Mary into his house as his wife because of her age! Your Mohammad, on the contrary, desires a child of 9 (not even 12!!!).

Although Joseph surrenders to the demands of the priests and takes Mary into his house, he never consummates his marriage:

IX:2
Joseph said unto Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now **do I leave thee in my house, and I go away **to build my buildings and I will come again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee.

Your far-fetched analogy between Joseph and Mohammad is faulty, offensive, and impetuous.

 

[Psalter]

At least 12 is past the age of puberty…unlike a 6 year old (Aisha). And Joseph never had sexual relations with Mary–she remained a Virgin forever. Mohammed waited until Aisha was 9 to defile her.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You may have a point here. However, the vast majority of Muslim men will beat their wives eventually as it is sanctioned in the Qur’an. Various Imams have also spoken about wife-beating and “how it’s supposed to be done correctly.”

I.e., correctly meaning that it’s not BEATING at all in any sense of the word. The vast majority of Muslim men WILL NOT beat their wives because Muhammad was the best to his wives and didn’t beat them, and the best Muslim is the best to his wife. Moreover, BEATING is not sanctioned in the Qur’an–not commanded, not recommended, not condoned, not sanctioned.

Nah. He simply loved Jewish women and Christian Copts and had blessings from Allah to marry as many women he wanted. Allah is so good that he even allowed Mohammad to marry his step-son’s wife. They were all grown women and never felt obligated to marry the man.

Whatever. You can read yourself–Muhammad didn’t force ANYONE to marry him. Nobody. He also was restricted in the number of wives he could take–not restricted to 4 but he wasn’t able to take an unlimited number. That is just a lie on your part. Also, Zaid was not his step-son.

Please, if I said these kinds of lies and distortions about Christianity everyone on the forum would pounce on me. It’s not fair for you to just make things up and attribute them to Islam. Get it straight–I know you’re smart enough to not make these kinds of errors, so I’m left assuming they are deliberate.

 

[Sister_Amy]

At least 12 is past the age of puberty…unlike a 6 year old (Aisha). And Joseph never had sexual relations with Mary–she remained a Virgin forever. Mohammed waited until Aisha was 9 to defile her.

Defile her? When a husband goes to his wife the first time, do you say he defiles her? No.

Now, you say that 12 is past the age of puberty, and 6 is not. Muhammad contracted the marriage with Aisha when she was 6 (at the same ceremony for his other wife Sauda). But he did not consummate the marriage until she was 9, according to her own reports. Muslim scholars do not disagree at all about the fact that she was mature at the time he consummated the marriage.

So, I’m asking you… why is 12 old enough, and 9 not old enough?

And what about 10, or 11? At what time do you think a girl is actually old enough?

Consider, in your answer, that some girls do start puberty by age 8 or 9.

 

[ralphinal]

Puberty is not a fixed time in human development. It has been documented as low as 7 in some girls. There are many factors that come into play, such as diet, genetics, activity, and even climate of residence. We cannot say, for sure, that Aisha was pre-pubescent.

Sister Amy,
At what age do you think you were fully able to understand and concent to marriage?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Puberty is not a fixed time in human development. It has been documented as low as 7 in some girls. There are many factors that come into play, such as diet, genetics, activity, and even climate of residence. We cannot say, for sure, that Aisha was pre-pubescent.

Sister Amy,
At what age do you think you were fully able to understand and concent to marriage?

My point really was what you just said, that we cannot say, for sure, that Aisha was pre-pubescent. In fact, I think it’s much more likely that she wasn’t.

I also think it’s unfair to judge different cultures by the standard of our own–the notion of adolescence that we have today is not fixed in all culture, this idea that a person is a child, then an adolescent, and then an adult. In some cultures a 7-year old would face the same trial as a 30-year old for the same crime–cultures like medieval England, for example. In an oral culture, a child that is capable of sounding like an adult is treated like an adult. So I’m not going to answer the question, because I don’t think it’s fair to assume that I or any girl in today’s modern society was equivalent to Aisha, who was in a vastly different culture.

 

[ralphinal]

My point really was what you just said, that we cannot say, for sure, that Aisha was pre-pubescent. In fact, I think it’s much more likely that she wasn’t.

I also think it’s unfair to judge different cultures by the standard of our own–the notion of adolescence that we have today is not fixed in all culture, this idea that a person is a child, then an adolescent, and then an adult. In some cultures a 7-year old would face the same trial as a 30-year old for the same crime–cultures like medieval England, for example. In an oral culture, a child that is capable of sounding like an adult is treated like an adult. So I’m not going to answer the question, because I don’t think it’s fair to assume that I or any girl in today’s modern society was equivalent to Aisha, who was in a vastly different culture.

You jumped ahead on my point.

We cannot say that 9 is too young or too old in that era and local.

However, in modern times, it is suspect. The fact that a 6 year old could consent is to me more problematic.

However, would you say that today, there are very few cultures that would accept a 6 year old as able to concent? Or a 9 year old as being physically or mentally ready to wed?

 

[planten]

Here I am citing reference to debunk your silly assertion and highlighting the contrast between Joseph the carpentar and your Mohammad:

The apocryphal Gospel of James VIII: 1-3
And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as a dove that is nurtured: and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old, there was a council of the priests, saying: Behold Mary is become twelve years old in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her ? lest she pollute the sanctuary of the Lord. And they said unto the high priest: Thou standest over the altar of the Lord. Enter in and pray concerning her: And whatsoever the Lord shall reveal to thee, that let us do. And the high priest took the vestment with the twelve bells and went in unto the Holy of Holies and prayed concerning her. And lo, an angel of tile Lord appeared saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias~ go forth and assemble them that are widowers of the people, and let them bring every man a rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went forth over all the country round about Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all men ran thereto.

This passage makes clear that Mary left the temple at the age of 12 because She had to!

IX:1-2
And Joseph cast down his adze and ran to meet them, and when they were gathered together they went to the high priest and took their rods with them. And he took the rods of them all and went into the temple and prayed. And when he had finished the prayer he took the rods and went forth and gave them back to them: and there was no sign upon them. But Joseph received the last rod: and 1o, a dove came forth of the rod and flew upon the bead of Joseph. And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself. And Joseph refused, saying: I have sons, and I am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel.

We see that Joseph does not want to take Mary into his house as his wife because of her age! Your Mohammad, on the contrary, desires a child of 9 (not even 12!!!).

Although Joseph surrenders to the demands of the priests and takes Mary into his house, he never consummates his marriage:

IX:2
Joseph said unto Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now **do I leave thee in my house, and I go away **to build my buildings and I will come again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee.

Your far-fetched analogy between Joseph and Mohammad is faulty, offensive, and impetuous.

**angelos, there is no need to get hurt when it comes to your people. But you enjoy saying bad things about others. I have read the story but I do not believe it, specially the angels passing messages. That is not possible.

And the whole story has been well designed till the end part, sending Joseph away from Mary. In another gospel, it is clearly written that Joseph and Mary lived like a husband and wife. They used to close their doors on the public as a husband and wife for fourteen years.

What would you say about that?. Were they not living as a husband and wife for fourteen (14) years?. If you get upset about the marriage of Mary at the age of 12 then why do you happily discuss the marriage of Aisha at some young age. That is not a part of Quran.

But your whole story is written in your own bible. The angel coming to zakariya and angel coming to Joseph the carpentar is all false. Cannot ( Can never) be true. You know the reason why.**

 

[planten]

At least 12 is past the age of puberty…unlike a 6 year old (Aisha). And Joseph never had sexual relations with Mary–she remained a Virgin forever. Mohammed waited until Aisha was 9 to defile her.

**Psalter, prove that Joseph never visited Mary as a husband. It is written in the bible that Joseph and Mary used to close their doors… used to close their doors as a husband and wife for 14 years. You have no ground to stand on to your adverse ideas about Aisha. After all Aisha was a female and got married in real terms. But your false story about Joseph never entering into Mary cannot be believed, just because you or your man made book said so.

The matter about Aisha is not a word of God. But your Mary and Joseph relation is in the bible. You cannot deny it. You may be trying to make Mary pregnant by the ghost. That would be an additional mistake.

It is just your wishful thinking, bad on the Aisha side and good on the Mary side. Do not have it greased on both sides please**.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You jumped ahead on my point.

We cannot say that 9 is too young or too old in that era and local.

However, in modern times, it is suspect. The fact that a 6 year old could consent is to me more problematic.

However, would you say that today, there are very few cultures that would accept a 6 year old as able to concent? Or a 9 year old as being physically or mentally ready to wed?

What significance do cultures today have? Arabia 1400 years ago is not a modern culture.

 

[planten]

**Right age for consent to marriage is also being discussed in this thread. I would like to know, did Mary know where she was going? Did she consent to the marriage with Joseph? Was she ever asked about her consent? Did she say “Yes”? She was only 12 years or less.

Please answer all these questions.
**

 

[cathopologist]

I.e., correctly meaning that it’s not BEATING at all in any sense of the word. The vast majority of Muslim men WILL NOT beat their wives because Muhammad was the best to his wives and didn’t beat them, and the best Muslim is the best to his wife. Moreover, BEATING is not sanctioned in the Qur’an–not commanded, not recommended, not condoned, not sanctioned.

Why don’t i quote my reply from a Muslim website and what it says on the subject of beating wives.

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them**. But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)**

[

“Beat them”. If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating

The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion****To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith](A Commentary on The Quran, Sura 4 Verse 34 by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat)Read the passages in BOLD, UNDERLINED RED WORDS.

Whatever. You can read yourself–Muhammad didn’t force ANYONE to marry him. Nobody. He also was restricted in the number of wives he could take–not restricted to 4 but he wasn’t able to take an unlimited number. That is just a lie on your part. Also, Zaid was not his step-son.

Didn’t Mohammad violate the Jewish girl, Raihana of the Banu Qyrayza tribe as his concubine when she refused to marry him after he executed her family members?

Are you serious? Zayd bin Harithah wasn’t Mohammad’s adopted son?

Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by GOD, and blessed by you, “Keep your wife and reverence GOD,” and you hid inside yourself what GOD wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only GOD. When Zayd was completely through with his wife, we had you marry her, in order to establish the precedent that a man may marry the divorced wife of his adopted son. GOD’s commands shall be done.
The prophet is not committing an error by doing anything that is made lawful by GOD. Such is GOD’s system since the early generations. GOD’s command is a sacred duty. - Surah 33:37-38

Really, if you cannot come up with answers, please don’t resort to calling me a liar. I take that to heart.

Please, if I said these kinds of lies and distortions about Christianity everyone on the forum would pounce on me. It’s not fair for you to just make things up and attribute them to Islam. Get it straight–I know you’re smart enough to not make these kinds of errors, so I’m left assuming they are deliberate.

I don’t make these things up ‘deliberately’. I quote them from the horse’s mouth. You have the problem of not accepting them and then call me a liar? I find this aspect of your behaviour rather perplexing.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why don’t i quote my reply from a Muslim website and what it says on the subject of beating wives.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html
Read the passages in BOLD, UNDERLINED RED WORDS.

How can I help you? Perhaps quoting FROM THE SAME WEBSITE would help you:
According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say even that it should be largely symbolic and should be administered “with a folded scarf” or “with a miswak or some such thing”.

Don’t waste my time or your time pretending that BEATING is allowed when clearly what is meant by BEATING in English is NOT what is meant by what the Qur’an says.

Didn’t Mohammad violate the Jewish girl, Raihana of the Banu Qyrayza tribe as his concubine when she refused to marry him after he executed her family members?

Good grief. I have no clue what you’re talking about, or who.

Are you serious? Zayd bin Harithah wasn’t Mohammad’s adopted son?

Adopted son. Not step-son. (I.e., he was not the son of any of Muhammad’s wives.) Why can’t you be precise?

Really, if you cannot come up with answers, please don’t resort to calling me a liar. I take that to heart.

Yeah, I know how it feels.

So be precise. I’m going to start calling you on it.

 

[ralphinal]

What significance do cultures today have? Arabia 1400 years ago is not a modern culture.

Just trying to establish a baseline for thought.

If we accept that it was thought to be acceptable then, but it problematic now, we can say that we have grown. If it is still acceptable, we may have an issue.

Besides, all I am asking about is one aspect of it. I am not sure what Muhammed looked like. Just being post-pubescent does not mean that her body was fully developed and ready for sex with a full grown man.