One Cannot Be Saved by Faith Alone

[hvg3akaek]

It all comes down to the definition of “Faith” or “Belief”.

If your definition of “Faith Alone” is simply believing that “Christ is God”. Then One Cannot Be Saved by “Faith Alone”

If your definition of “Faith Alone” is believing all God has revealed to us through Christ and His Church. Then “Faith Alone” can save you.

Chuck

Good, for the first definition is clearly wrong Faith is more than accepting something, it is believing it, it is trusting it. I often use the “Final Destination” movie as an example. Never watched it, but the scene makes sense.

You are on a plane, someone runs in and starts telling everyone that the plane will blow up/crash, and everyone on the plane will die.

If you believe them, you will get off the plane. If you stay on the plane, you obviously have no faith in the person.

(now, lets put aside the silly examples “but what if they were trapped/tied to a seat/spoke a different language/wanted to die”. its an analogy.)

Faith without action, without response, without love, without “works” is indeed dead, it is false, it is not faith. But, it is the faith that saves, not the love or works.

 

[hvg3akaek]

Then he believed the preacher: “Saved by faith alone.”

He believed the preacher: “Only the Bible.”

He believed the preacher: “You cannot be good.”

He believed the preacher: “Your sins do not matter, you still get to go to heaven.”

He believed the preacher: “Catholics don’t know their Bible.”

He believed the preacher: “The Catholic Church does use the Bible.”

The Catholic Church is one big lie. They are the whores of Babylon.

Why he believed those lies, I do not know.

All of those statements are false.

That is a big statement to make after calling other’s teachings “lies”. Now, I am not going to say that I agree with all the above, but is it possible that you got some of them wrong?

Saved by faith alone - point of discussion

Only the Bible - i guess you mean the sola scripture thing? Discussed here.

You cannot be good - a little hard to work out what is being meant, but from:

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Romans 3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

it sounds like a reasonable stance.

Your sins do not matter, you still get to go to heaven - well, it does sound dodgy from the start, but maybe its your words/paraphrasing the idea? Sins do matter - but there is only one thing for them, Christ’s death. It has been and gone. It was for all sins, all time. There is no ‘catch up’ sacrifice for the sins of the past week. But we should strive not to sin -

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Catholics don’t know their Bible - possibly true in some cases, but some Protestants likewise do not know their bible. I mean, when Roman Catholics (and I am not talking about all, just some) complain about the Pope’s stance on condoms, and say he doesn’t understand about the sexually active young Roman Catholics, one cannot help but think that they (the ones claiming the above) clearly do not understand God’s Word on fornication!

The Catholic Church does use the Bible - this is a lie? I am sorry to hear that

Love is first. Love is greatest.

Indeed! But our love does not save us. We love because he first loved us (1 John 4:19). How did God show His love for us? He sent Jesus to die so that we may be saved (John 3:16), and He did this whist we were still his enemies (Romans 5:10). Clearly, our love does not factor into our salvation - except that it is a proper response to being saved!

 

[Seamus_Sully]

You cannot be good - a little hard to work out what is being meant, but from:

I am not a scholar.

We cannot do good. This is true.

It is Christ’s love poured into our new hearts that does the good. Then we are compelled to do the good.

This is way over my head.

I cannot do good.

When I have done good, it is Christ that compelled me to do good.

Humans cannot be good. I agree with Jesus.

But it is not the old human nature that does the good.

The new heart with God’s love poured into it that does the good.

This is what I think Jesus meant.

Saved by faith alone - point of discussion
Back to my original post: What does faith hear?

 

[Seamus_Sully]

One of the central points that I am making is: Faith must hear something.

What does faith hear?

 

[clmowry]

It really is (in some cases) a dispute over “nothing”.

One side argues: Your saved by “Faith Alone” not by works…but…a Faith without works is dead and therefore cannot save.

The other side argues that one is saved through the Grace of God and that salvation cannot be earned by any thing we do…but…the Faith we live in Grace must be in alignment with Christs commands or we will not be saved.

You say potato I say patoto.

Quite franky the whole thing drives me nuts.

If the Catholic and Lutheran churches can make a “joint declaration” on the subject, why is everybody still arguing? (Of course I guess that’s part of the problems the Luterans can’t speak for “Protestantism.” What the Lutherans have signed off on “no one” else has.)

Seems like this is “one” issue that separates us that we could move past. But, nope!

“Can’t we all just get along?”

Chuck

Good, for the first definition is clearly wrong Faith is more than accepting something, it is believing it, it is trusting it. I often use the “Final Destination” movie as an example. Never watched it, but the scene makes sense.

You are on a plane, someone runs in and starts telling everyone that the plane will blow up/crash, and everyone on the plane will die.

If you believe them, you will get off the plane. If you stay on the plane, you obviously have no faith in the person.

(now, lets put aside the silly examples “but what if they were trapped/tied to a seat/spoke a different language/wanted to die”. its an analogy.)

Faith without action, without response, without love, without “works” is indeed dead, it is false, it is not faith. But, it is the faith that saves, not the love or works.

 

[mikeledes]

Protestants love to talk about faith alone, but can they point to a passage in the Bible that defines faith?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Speaking for my posts, as far as I can recall, I did not mention works.

When I started this thread I asked: What does faith hear?

When my brother finally saw that faith hears love, or love is heard by faith, works had nothing to do with it.

Concerning works, I do not know how the Roman Catholic Church explains the entire reality.

For Catholics, an infant is saved at Baptism–no works needed!

What the Church teaches on works, I have read and studied, but I cannot recall all of those subtleties. Nor is it the essence of salvation. An infant is saved at baptism–Lutheran, Catholic and Orthodox all believe this (at least as far as I know).

I know that the subleties are important, but when my brother saw that love is heard by faith, the biblical passages flowed from his memory to justify that position, that is, love is heard by faith.

He still abhors the Roman Catholic Church, but Biblically he is able to see that love is in charge of faith.

It is God’s love that saved us, saves us, and will save us.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

I borrowed this from the Scripture section. I do not know how to move quotes, sorry.

I marked the important section. I assume Verbum is correct. This applies to my last post.

Hi Marcos,

To make a long story short, justification is what is done by baptism : cleansing from all sin, incorporation into Christ, becoming an adopted child of God and heir to heaven. It’s our ticket to heaven.

Salvation is actually getting into heaven. In other words, with baptism (justification) you get your ticket to heaven, but, with the help of God, you have to persevere in making your way there.

Protestants seem to confuse both ideas, as if, once justified, you were saved for ever.

They often say that we claim to get into heaven because of our good deeds (“works”). We don’t. The reason we can get into heaven is because we have the ticket, and only God can give us. that without any merit of our own.

However, because we are part of the mystical body of Christ (incorporated into Him), he has obtained for us that our good deeds should be meritorious, not for salvation but for a better place in heaven. Jesus has said that there are many houses in heaven and has implied that some are better than others, when some disciples were discussing who was going to be sittting at his right hand and left hand.

Since the essence of “heaven” is the beatific vision, having a better place in heaven, means that we have superior knowledge and enjoyment of God.

Verbum

 

[hvg3akaek]

One of the central points that I am making is: Faith must hear something.

What does faith hear?

Well, let me ask:

Why does faith have to hear anything?
What do you mean “hear”? Faith is not a thing that has ears…

So, explain what you mean by “hear”, then back up your statement that faith must hear something.

 

[teachccd]

Absolutely! I have no disagreements there

However - love is only the outworking of our faith. The sign that our faith is really faith. The rash of our disease, to use a negative example. (the rash is not the sickness, only the sign of our sickness).

It is our faith, and our faith alone, that saves us. (from our perspective Of course, God’s grace is well and truly there!)

Our love merely shows us that our faith is alive and kicking!

Love is the sign that our faith is really faith. I could not have put that better. So real faith must have love to be real faith! Yes. So love*** is necessary ***for a fulness of faith. Faith and love. Faith without love is dead. FAITH AND LOVE. It’s like food for the body. Without food the body dies. So food is necessary for physical salvation and love is necessary for spiritual salvation. An empty faith cannot save. It must be filled with love. Only a saving faith saves and only faith filled with love is a saving faith. You cannot have one without the other. If faith produces good works then so be it but those works must be attached to the faith for it to be a saving faith. So I guess you are right. We are saved by faith alone. A saving faith filled with the necessary love…God Bless (Galatians 5:6) …teachccd

 

[hvg3akaek]

Love is the sign that our faith is really faith. I could not have put that better. So real faith must have love to be real faith! Yes. So love*** is necessary ***for a fulness of faith. Faith and love. Faith without love is dead. FAITH AND LOVE. It’s like food for the body. Without food the body dies. So food is necessary for physical salvation and love is necessary for spiritual salvation.

So, going on with that logic, food is actually necessary in spiritual salvation too! We are saved by eating, for if we didn’t eat, we would die - and if we die, we cannot love - and if we do not love, we have no faith - and if we have no faith, we cannot be saved!



Faith is what saves us. Love is what shows that our faith is alive, or is true.

 

[teachccd]

So, going on with that logic, food is actually necessary in spiritual salvation too! We are saved by eating, for if we didn’t eat, we would die - and if we die, we cannot love - and if we do not love, we have no faith - and if we have no faith, we cannot be saved!

What?? If we die we cannot love?? Where in the world did you ever get that idea? And once we’re dead our salvation has already either been granted or denied. Sorry but your logic makes absolutely no sense. Faith and acts of love is how we are saved. One is no good without the other…

 

[Ignatius]

It is our faith, and our faith alone, that saves us.

If you have “faith and faith alone”, even if you have “all faith so as to move mountains and have not love” it is nothing. "Faith alone " can’t save you.

If you don’t mean “faith alone” then why use that expression? If you are going to use the expression “faith alone” and not mean it, then it is misleading. If the term “faith alone” doesn’t mean “faith alone” then why don’t you guys drop the expression and use one that is more accurate?

 

[hvg3akaek]

If you have “faith and faith alone”, even if you have “all faith so as to move mountains and have not love” it is nothing. "Faith alone " can’t save you.

If you don’t mean “faith alone” then why use that expression? If you are going to use the expression “faith alone” and not mean it, then it is misleading. If the term “faith alone” doesn’t mean “faith alone” then why don’t you guys drop the expression and use one that is more accurate?

Good question!

“faith alone” is only part of it, but this part means “only faith” not “faith without love”.

For faith without love is not just dead faith, it is not faith.

“Faith alone” means that it is not the love that saves, it is the faith. If the love saved, it would be a work - we would be getting into heaven by doing stuff, by our own actions.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

God’s grace, our faith. Grace alone, faith alone (and scripture alone)

 

[HailMary]

“Faith alone” means that** it is not the love that saves**, it is the faith. If the love saved, it would be a work - we would be getting into heaven by doing stuff, by our own actions.

Thats just some really disgusting theology and I pity anyone who believes in this. Not the love…wow

1 Cor 13:13

So faith, hope, love remain, these three;** but the greatest of these is love**.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Thats just some really disgusting theology and I pity anyone who believes in this. Not the love…wow

1 Cor 13:13

I question how one can repent without first experiencing the love of God? And again, does not scripture say that God is love?

 

[teachccd]

“Faith alone” means that it is not the love that saves, it is the faith. If the love saved, it would be a work - we would be getting into heaven by doing stuff, by our own actions.

Body and soul are necessary for existence. Faith and works are necessary for salvation. Works cannot save alone and faith cannot save alone. Just as the body without the soul is a corpse, faith without acts of love is dead. I think that we’ve belabored this circular argument to death…teachccd

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Again, what does faith hear?

If faith comes by hearing, what does faith hear?

 

[Seamus_Sully]

“Faith alone” means that it is not the love that saves, it is the faith. If the love saved, it would be a work - we would be getting into heaven by doing stuff, by our own actions.

As far as I can discern: God’s love poured into our new hearts is absolutely needed for salvation. We cannot be saved untill His love is poured into our new hearts.

He gives the new heart.

He pours in His love.

It is His love poured into our new hearts that saves us.

I am a Catholic and I think this is the Catholic teaching.

We are saved at Baptism. The baby is saved–no works.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

If one holds the position: Saved only by faith, what does faith hear?