One issue I have with the Second Amendment crowd

[po18guy]

Do you have an issue with the “First Amendment crowd”? After all, it is media in all of its forms that has saturated our culture and psyches with bloody murder for decades running. They have profited from it, while hiding behind the First Amendment.

I call for the immediate suspension of the First Amendment! Fake news epidemic! Slanted, biased reporting. Media disinformation that George Orwell never dreamed of. The glamorization and popularization of violence.

When the media-poisoned chickens come home to roost, you can always blame the NRA! Next to the Catholic faith, it is the last acceptable prejudice.

 

[phil19034]

Your knowledge of history is extremely lacking.

How about you attempt to correct me with charity instead of claiming that I’m ignorant of history.

Thank you and God bless.

 

[Theo520]

f the right to bear arms was a natural right we’d all be born owning guns.

The first humans had health and well-being. They did not have weapons.

So you are saying the first humans were vegans?
I think not. Early human were hunter gatherers, they needed animal protein to survive.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

The issue that you bring up seems to go beyond the Second Amendment. The only connection that mental health should have with the SEcond Amendment is for screening/treating mental problems that increase the risk of violence. As such, phobias, marital problems, etc should not apply.

If anything, those who want to own guns should be forced to pay for mental health screening and that can be done by making it a requirement before purchasing a gun. In other words, everyone who wants to own a gun should submit themselves to the same background checks that an federal worker (e.g. FBI agents) would go through. Take psychological tests, gather information from 2 or 3 close acquaintances, look into prior mental health concerns from school reports, court reports, etc. This in my view is the only way to weed out those with obvious mental health problems.

 

[Cyril]

How about you attempt to correct me with charity instead of claiming that I’m ignorant of history.

Thank you and God bless.

Sorry stupidity brings out the worst in me and charity is reserved in my shriveled little heart for people who need help the most though granted you need lots of help, so maybe I could be nicer.

On the other side of that how about you start refuting arrangements made on logic with logic instead of crying for charity? You wanna cozy friendly conversation? Don’t start with an attack on those “other things and people” and expect those people not not be on this forum to take offense.

The problem with your assumptions is that they don’t apply in literately every other country around the united states. We all have the same entertainment as you, the same general judo christain based law system. It staggers the mind how Americans think they and everyone else must be just like then or so alien as if there’s no such thing as an in-between.

 

[Cyril]

My phone doesn’t permit me to use the CAF I’ve waited all day to tear this apart…

Mental health has been abandoned or allowed to languish as it is costly and requires that a judgment be made of some form of mental illness. Those who decry the judgment of other human beings (except those they disagree with politically) have either directly caused this, or have allowed the decline of the safety net. The liberal buzzword “mainstreaming” came about in the 80s and has moved many patients out of facilities and simply given them apartments. There is no charity in that, as they are vulnerable human beings.

You start off strong I’ll give you that, mental health is woefully misunderstood. too often its “fix your self or go stand far away from the rest of us,” mentality. I would like to point out as someone who has seen terrible terrible things and been in the darkest of places the desire to lash out at people is tempered greatly by not have a ready means of doing so.

In this case guns.

In each and every case of mass murder, innumerable hints, clues, suggestions were given by the perpetrators - and routinely ignored! How can you stop a murderer that you ignore? One who would still be alive if living in a controlled environment? This is not a “crowd” situation. It is for you and I to work on.

Agreed but sadly this is where your olive branch ends. You claim we need to be vigilant to those in distress but how about we go deeper and prevent the distress?

Murder, no matter how it is accomplished - whether by bare hands, fertilizer bomb, blunt object, knife, gun or vehicle, has nothing, zip, zero, nada to do with the 2nd Amendment. It occurs in maximum security prisons and jails nationwide! No, murder has to do with the human heart and controlling criminality

And you know what the difference between those methods and say a semi automatic?
Efficiency.

Yeah, bombs are destructive and anyone can make them. Few can make them well however. The learning curve on a firearm vs make it yourself napalm is vastly different. Even arming a well made bomb and timing in perfectly to go off as a much higher margin of error then say you figuring out how to not miss with a gun. The key difference is you can practice with a gun in public where as you cant with a bomb.

a classic failure of the left wing.

Dont bring the political scale into this. No one is 100% left or right wing you can condense people into a scale no matter how comfortable it makes you feel. You take any person on one issue they may have completely different feelings on another.

And while it maybe the “left” who often face such arguments head on there’s more then enough “right wing” sympathizers who lost a loved one in the crowd from reasons ranging but not limited to irresponsible gun care to shot on the street for no reason.

 

[Cyril]

It has to do with the media culture of death. We reap what we sow.

You mean the culture that’s been stressing people out to snap and go insane?

• fake news -

You Americans are so cute with your buzzwords. Just because you notice news is fake and now have a catchy quip to throw at it doesn’t mean you should. Data like most things must be analyzed and talks about. You throw chiches like that around you dismiss out of hand any discussion that could meaningfully be had.

that causes terror and despair which lead some to commit murder? Just try to control the First Amendment and see who comes out of the woodwork!

Now comes the flip-side to my point I just made. While good dialog is well and good entertaining stupidity and when I say that I mean established wrong beyond a reasonable doubt is counterproductive. If scientis have to drop what they are doing every 5 minutes to explain to colleges that the earth really isnt flat nothing would get done.

Freedom of speech is an oxymoron in many ways. Not in concept but practice. Yes you have the freedom to say something but say something stupid and people should not be required to listen, say something destructive to the concept of freedom of speech and we have the right to shut you up. (i’m speak in general here mind)
You want to raise a Nazi flag over your house and teach others how to destroy democracy to bring back the Third Reich? Buddy you lost your free speech.

A tolerant society can not be tolerant of elements that would destroy it.

The Second Amendment was created to prevent a tyrannical government from lording it over the people.

Maybe that was true when the gaps between gun types were not so large. The government has access to training, weapons and tactics that would leave you in the dust like cavemen banging rocks. You want to even the playing field again? Information, hacking, shining a bright spotlight on the corrupt so they have to play nice. That’s part of the problem of screaming “fake news”, your making it easier to dim that light.

Those who feared President Obama, and who now fear President Trump should understand this. Unless they seek a tyrannical government, that is.

No I don’t know this because the best weapon i have to tie Obama/Trumps hands is a camera, not a gun.

 

[phil19034]

Sorry stupidity brings out the worst in me and charity is reserved in my shriveled little heart for people who need help the most though granted you need lots of help, so maybe I could be nicer.

On the other side of that how about you start refuting arrangements made on logic with logic instead of crying for charity? You wanna cozy friendly conversation? Don’t start with an attack on those “other things and people” and expect those people not not be on this forum to take offense.

The problem with your assumptions is that they don’t apply in literately every other country around the united states. We all have the same entertainment as you, the same general judo christain based law system. It staggers the mind how Americans think they and everyone else must be just like then or so alien as if there’s no such thing as an in-between.

First off, what are you referring to with “starting an attack on ‘other things and people’”? I did not mean any offense to anyone, and if anyone took offense, I apologize, that was not my intent.

However, you still don’t have to be rude by calling me (or my opinion) stupid.

I still stand by my assumption that there must be something happening that is unique to America that is causing kids to shoot up schools.

American kids did not shoot up schools for hundreds of years and their access to guns used to be much greater.

This is a fairly modern phenomenon.

There are surely a number of factors, but there are a good number of psychiatrists and psychologists who believe that super violent video games & super violent movies play a part (granted, there are a number of them who also think violent video games are good for society - though I have a very hard time agreeing with them).

The super violent video games & movies (according to professionals) can have an affect on a select number of people who have an undiagnosed case of mental illness.

Add the above to our current gun laws and a lacking moral formations of many, these potential mass murders have relatively easy access to guns compared to other nations. So that might be why we don’t hear about this elsewhere; the potential mass murders have harder access to the weapons.

But also some video games are banded in other nations. So perhaps the saturation isn’t has high? Here’s a small list of 11 that are banned in some countries.

https://www.geek.com/games/11-video-games-that-got-banned-and-why-1645406/

BTW - let me be clear about something. I am NOT a gun owner. I don’t like them. However, I’m ok with the 2nd amendment because I support the right of a state to declare independence (even though I would have sided with the North during the American Civil War). I believe the 2nd amendment’s main purpose is to provide a check and balance by the people against the Federal govt by having an armed population which could rebel if things got bad. However, I also support individual states issuing stricter gun laws if they choose to.

God Bless

 

[Cyril]

I still stand by my assumption that there must be something happening that is unique to America that is causing kids to shoot up schools.

Then why is it not happening everywhere else? We have the same media you do!

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I still stand by my assumption that there must be something happening that is unique to America that is causing kids to shoot up schools.

Then why is it not happening everywhere else? We have the same media you do!

Do you? Do the same number of houses in your country have HBO as ours? Do the same number of homes that the exact same TV channels? I’m honestly asking.

I’m not talking about movies at the movie theater, I’m talking about on TV, where kids are watching programs they should be because they have TVs in their rooms from a young age and oftentimes being babysat by the TV.

 

[pnewton]

Dont bring the political scale into this. No one is 100% left or right wing you can condense people into a scale no matter how comfortable it makes you feel. You take any person on one issue they may have completely different feelings on another.

And while it maybe the “left” who often face such arguments head on there’s more then enough “right wing” sympathizers who lost a loved one in the crowd from reasons ranging but not limited to irresponsible gun care to shot on the street for no reason.

Labeling and classifying people will always prove easier that having dialogue and finding solutions to problems. Even within one topic, like the “Second Amendment crowd” there is a large variance of what people would like, from the NRA position to one of eliminating private ownership. The difference between these two are that few really believe in absolutely limiting private ownership of guns, where as an unrestricted gun policy is desired by many, though I agree with you, and think every mass shooter whittles those numbers down.

 

[Cyril]

Yes… In Canada when we buy cable or dish it’s the same packages you get. The only difference is we are required to have X amount of canadain content and sometimes we get things a month or two behind you.

Other then that it’s the same games, TV shows as you.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I still stand by my assumption that there must be something happening that is unique to America that is causing kids to shoot up schools.

Then why is it not happening everywhere else? We have the same media you do!

NOTE: I will NOT say that easier access to guns doesn’t have an affect. That would be naive.

However, more kids had access to guns in the 1800s, 1900s, 1950s, 1980s, etc and this didn’t happen. So what has changed that is causing this now vs in America’s past?

That’s the question I have. I’m not really asking “why America and not other countries?”

 

[Cyril]

Mental health, internet and social dividing.

 

[phil19034]

Yes… In Canada when we buy cable or dish it’s the same packages you get. The only difference is we are required to have X amount of canadain content and sometimes we get things a month or two behind you.

Other then that it’s the same games, TV shows as you.

That’s fair. But what is the market penetration in Canada?

Also, let’s be fair. Canada often is an anomaly (in a good way) because it’s one of the happiest places to live in the world. Perhaps it’s all the open space or cooler weather? I have no idea.

As close as Canada and the US are, we have very different pasts and a very different constitutions.

Canada remained loyal and faithful to Britain while we had a rebellion. Who knows, perhaps America would have less violence if we remained loyal to the crown? I have no idea. But we didn’t.

 

[phil19034]

Mental health, internet and social dividing.

I will give you that. That most likely is be playing a part. But the social dividing doesn’t make much sense for me because the school shooters don’t seem to be from families where social divisions would cause such behavior.

It does account for mob violence (and maybe the Las Vegas shooting), but doesn’t really account for these mass school shootings - at least not yet.

 

[Cyril]

You seen thirteen reasons why?

 

[phil19034]

You seen thirteen reasons why?

No, I read horrible reviews about that series from mental health professionals, school psychologists, etc.

 

[steve-b]

PS: I don’t want this to become a thread where people start coming together to bash the Second Amendment or gang up on gun owners but rather a calm and civil discussion about the topic on hand. I know my rhetoric may come across as coming in “bad faith” but supporters of the Second Amendment, I would like your response, especially in relation to the concepts of social justice.

Here’s another angle.

Gun violence, even in Chicago, don’t even come close the death rate that comes from abortion in this country.

Who are the willing participants in this biggest culprit of violent death in this country in particular and the world in general?

1. the prospective mother
2. the physician who took an oath “do no harm”

1.5 million abortions/yr happen in this country alone.

Are doctors mentally disturbed who perform these horrible acts? How about the instruments they use? Should we blame those instruments they use as cause of all these deaths?

Our problem in the world, is one of perspective AND proportion when addressing evil acts

 

[Cyril]

There’s just as many saying the opposite plus the added argument of spreading awareness of what happens in schools.