One of the men who threw the Idols (Pachamama) in the Tiber speaks!

[Babaganoush]

The difference is that you accept what you believe is slavery and defend it. I on the other hand accept the fact that property isn’t absolute in catholic theology and therefore neither is the confiscation of that property theft in all cases.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Are you sure about that? Lol
You’re grasping at straws

OH yes very sure, having a lot to do with indigenous people. the term ‘native’ has all sorts of connotations that the person is flora and fauna, not person , and this is well documented in the colonial writings of several countries

 

[GiftofMercy]

From my own perspective, the grave scandal caused by the violent zealots who believe themselves to be more Catholic than the Pope, is the real issue.

then you are not listening to the confusion and hurt of the laity and dismissing it as nonsense.

to claim it is only scandalising a certain type is incredibly uncharitable, if it is scandalising an old lady i know who attends OF mass daily , is in legion of mary, is a consecrated religious, is an old man who attends mass weekly in the OF and gives all he can to the church, if it scandalises a child who is confused and now thinks this is our lady of the amazon, if it scandalises a young couple who think fertility and the earth are great to venerate,

If it scandalises an EF Bishop who is retired what exact type are you referring to

 

[GiftofMercy]

You’re grasping at straws here. You’re looking at pictures and accusing of something that they maybe not be guilty of.

I am stating a fact, it is scandal, it has caused confusion and people to question, just as other scandals do.

To deny it is a scandal is not right.

So when he calls it Pachamama he speaks for everyone?

well you are claiming My Pope is speaking for everyone when you state that his statement about no idolatrous intentions are a blanket statement.

Both of them referred to the figures
as “Our Lady of the Amazon.”

and they were wrong , as has been stated by the vatican in an official statement that it was not

Our Lady.

 

[Frankie65]

So, the ends justify the means after all? We should destroy mosques then! To rid God’s Creation from heresies!

So let’s say it has been established irrefutably that wooden figurines chucked into Tiber are representative of demon Pachamama. Let’s just say, for argument, it’s definitely been established. Demon statues.

Are you still going to accuse Alexander of theft?

 

[HarryStotle]

Whether or not proscriptions against theft cover the Pachamama episode, is debatable.

If your claim is that we should not steal, so the Pachamama should not have been removed covers all aspects of the incident, then let’s explore the repercussions.

The display of an Incan idol in a Catholic Church now has been given precedence by the authority and sanction of the Pope himself, apparently. This is a green light, of sorts, regarding displays of idols in Catholic Churches, no?

So Norse Catholics who want to get back into touch with their pagan roots can begin importing statues of Thor or Sif into their parish churches. Those in New Zealand of Maori descent can begin to bring Maui, Taranga, or Makeatutara into theirs. The Inuit can import Sedna. Etc., etc.,

I am thinking that a prohibition against stealing doesn’t really take into account all important aspects of the entire incident and its implications to churches as sacred places of worship.
[/quote]

Are you okay with the display of idols in Catholic sacred spaces, then?

If not what ought to have happened given the precedent of “green light” for this display? Should the Pope come out and declare the display a mistake, or should everyone assume pagan idols are now okay?

 

[Aquinas11]

Yes since apparently its more important to be “hip and cool” and be down with Indigenous Culture so we can tell our non-Catholic friends “hey bro, check it out, we had Pagan idols in our Church! Some loser took them from the Church but I reject that cause I’m sooooo tolerant. Catholics are cool now! Will you guys please now ask me to hang with you?”

Apparently this social and cultural appeasement is even more important than the salvation of our immortal souls…

 

[vz71]

Just as you justify theft

You justify slavery.

 

[Frankie65]

** Pope Fedorino’s words, circa the year 2046 (with some liberal licence)

Good afternoon. I want to say a word about the statues of Moloch, well known demon of child sacrifice, that were taken from the church of the Transpontina – which were there without idolatrous intentions – and were thrown into the Tiber.

First of all, this happened in Rome, and, as Bishop of the Diocese, I ask pardon of the persons who were offended by this act.

Then, I want to communicate to you that the Moloch statues which created such attention in the media, were retrieved from the Tiber. The statues were not damaged.

The Commander of the Carabinieri desires that you should be informed of this recovery before the news is made public. At the moment, the news is confidential, and the Moloch statues with their teeth, claws and bat wings are being kept in the Italian Carabinieri Commander’s office.

The Commander of the Carabinieri has expressed his desire to follow up on any indications that you would like to give concerning the manner of publication of the news, and any other initiative you may want to take in this regard: for example, the Commander said, “the exhibition of the Moloch statues during the Holy Mass for the closing of the Synod”. We’ll see.**

Breaking news…the statues have now been translated to the Colosseum, where they are being kept safely.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

From my own perspective, the grave scandal caused by the violent zealots who believe themselves to be more Catholic than the Pope, is the real issue.

then you are not listening to the confusion and hurt of the laity and dismissing it as nonsense.

to claim it is only scandalising a certain type is incredibly uncharitable, if it is scandalising an old lady i know who attends OF mass daily , is in legion of mary, is a consecrated religious, is an old man who attends mass weekly in the OF and gives all he can to the church, if it scandalises a child who is confused and now thinks this is our lady of the amazon, if it scandalises a young couple who think fertility and the earth are great to venerate,

If it scandalises an EF Bishop who is retired what exact type are you referring to

Would these people be scandalised if not for the agitating anti Pope Francis zealots? I think not. The genuine old Catholics are quite used to hearing about things that are surprising to them. Pope St John Paul II and his fearless welcome to praying with other faiths and his treatise on the nature of heaven, hell and purgatory and his stance on the death penalty and salvation outside the Church. All these things that that ‘type’ find so offensive, have been nevertheless accepted as challenges to grow in faith by the old Catholics. . . .

 

[HarryStotle]

Just as you justify theft

You may want to know that theft is not an absolute proscription in Catholic teaching.

For the notion of theft, the unwilingness of the owner to part with what is rightfully his, is essential. If he be content, or if under some circumstances he can legitimately be presumed to be satisfied with what is done although perhaps displeased at the manner of its doing, there is no theft, properly so called. Moreover his unwillingness must be reasonable, not simply insensate close-fistedness. He is not justified in declining always and without regard to conditions to assent to the alienation of what belongs to him merely because it is his.
Theft - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

In other words, if there is very good reason – i.e., if the owner completely understood the repercussions of the theft and would agree the theft in those circumstances would be permissible – then no theft occurred.
The justification for the theft would be if the owner properly understood the offence against God that the presence of this property created, the owner under those circumstances of full knowledge could reasonably agree to the theft of his property. If those conditions exist, there is no real theft.

This isn’t to imply that even completely unreasonable owners have to be convinced, but merely that reasonable owners fully understanding the conditions would need to be.

 

[vz71]

For those looking for evidence of the pagan worship going on, there is another thread in which the prayer has been translated.

Prayer to Pachemama Catholic News

A prayer to P. appears in a booklet on the Italian bishops’ website. It is here.https://www.missioitalia.it/sinodo-sullamazzonia/ Click on the Clicca qui at the bottom of the page and click forward 9 pages.

 

[Aquinas11]

I would think it over if I were you…

I wouldn t try if I were you…

Ok I’ve thought it over…all 1.8 seconds

There is a man here picketeering to expropriate land from owners who own more than XX hectáreas/ acres.
Should he cite St Thomas Aquinas?
What about there in US?

Aquinas is not jurisdictional law within US, since predated US. Instead, he should cite US law of the territory in which he lives.

 

[graciew]

As you have written it, I understand you are saying Aquinas is discarding private property .
But look, I wouldn t like to be flagged off-topic and end up full of flags like a dead bull in a Spanish Arena .
Just check it out for yourself with someone knowledgeable about Aquinas.If you want.

 

[Babaganoush]

Every nation has its laws regarding property ownership, and every nation confiscated a portion of that property and call it taxation. And many nations if not all will confiscate a persons land in the name of the public good. We can all disagree on what constitutes over taxation but generally we all agree that taxation up to a point isn’t theft.

Catholic moral theology predates the laws of all nations and is based on divine law. Just because someone in a particular place or time supports the excessive confiscation of property doesn’t say anything about catholic theology.

 

[graciew]

Catholic Social Doctrine 176, 177…
But seriously, we are getting into destination of goods of Creation and further interesting explanations.But beyond the topic also, Babaganoush.
I cordially depart from this point.

 

[Elias]

If the man objected, he should have gone to the pastor/bishop/pope and voiced his concerns instead of stealing them.

It’s not stealing because:

1. the idols have no value
2. he gained nothing from it

The correct legal term would be vandalism.

But even so, what that Austrian did was a good thing. You see, even if he did do things properly the priests and prelates that allowed it to happen in the first place would just tell him no, and the satanic idols would still be in God’s house. Thus he would end up having to do what he did regardless.

Jesus didn’t ask permission from the Temple elders to cast out the money lenders. Judas Maccabeeus didn’t ask permission from the state to cast out idols from the Temple. St. Boniface didn’t ask permission from the Germanic people to chop down their tree. Our Austrian friend didn’t need permission to take out the trash from one of God’s houses.

When good people refuse to do anything in the face of evil, they themselves give permission to the evil. You can bet your bottom dollar there were Israelites in the Kingdom that didn’t like the fact there were idols in God’s Temple, but did nothing because the hierarchy said it was okay. God punished them aswell when He put Israel back into slavery for their disobedience to His commandments and the Mosiac Law.

You are your brother’s keeper. Failure to act on behalf of your brother’s well being makes you complicit to his sins.

If you saw an idol to Moloch (also a fertility idol) in God’s house, and the preists and bishop says they want to keep it there, would you allow it to stay?

 

[HarryStotle]

As you have written it, I understand you are saying Aquinas is discarding private property .

Aquinas isn’t discarding private property in ordinary times. He is saying if the lives of others are at stake it is positively immoral for someone with property to refuse to those in need what he has in abundance. The ordinary law of private property would be subverted at that time to save those in jeopardy of starvation. It would be permissible to take the property of someone who has food (or some other necessity of life) at that time and in that instance.

There is no need to cite discarding a general principle for an exception. Exceptions to the law do not make good grounds for laws.

 

[Randolph]

So, the ends justify the means after all

An incident happened in my church some 15 years ago. Before a Sunday Mass was about to start, a random man walked toward the Altar and the Tabernacle screaming insults and profanities. Just right before he reached the Communion rail, he was tackled and taken down by a group of men sitting in the front pew. The police arrived shortly later, and arrested this man. No charges were brought.

Did this group of men assault this random man? Of course not… Protecting the house of God from desecration is the right thing to do. In this case, protecting the house of God from idolatry is also the right thing to do.

 

[Babaganoush]

Sometimes action is necessary, and damn the consequences.