The crimes of blasphemy and sacrilege have been committed. Putting a demon image …which is what it is. .right in the sight of God in his holy place…his Catholic church…He does not address idolatry in a legitimate way by theft of the items. By contrast, taking the items from the altar and setting them in the storage area can be a legitimate way.
Or any other actions of vigil, prayer, or protest.
So, I haven’t read through all of your posts, nor am I going to, but I understand you are wanting someone to clearly state with proof that when the people in the Vatican gardens were bowing down in the circle that they were actually worshipping the little statues there. As I said earlier to you, no one can read another person’s heart, so we can’t say what anyone there was thinking but…I’ve been looking for verification that they rendered adoration to those statues. So far I can’t find it, nor anyone able to help verifying.
So, and again, this is just IMHO, he was speaking truthfully in both sentences. The little statutes were “p” idols and he is saying they were not placed in the Church for idolatrous reasons but this statement of His Holiness Pope Francis’s doesn’t say anything, answer or respond to what was happening in the gardens.The pope said:
“Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the pachamama statues that were removed from the Church at Traspontina, which were there without idolatrous intentions and were thrown into the Tiber.”
You believe him when he names the statues but you don’t believe him OR you believe he was speaking for himself when he said “without idolatrous intentions”. All within one sentence. It seems you don’t believe him is the underlying issue.
They offered up fruit and prayed.But as of yet, I’ve been looking for verification that they rendered adoration to those statues.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.It’s quite comical and amusing to see defenders of falsehood/idolatry doing acts of gymnastic and contortion to misrepresent facts and to temper with the truth.They offered up fruit and prayed.
There has been plenty of evidence provided.
People keep moving the goal posts.
First they wanted proof it was an idol, and were provided the ceremony.
Then they ask for proof of worship, and were provided the food that was offered up.
Then they claimed to need to know what was said, and were provided the prayer used.
Seems to me some people are fixed solidly in their unbelief.
I always had thought it strange, surely if someone sees, they will believe…but I now see otherwise. I now have a greater understanding of what Abraham was saying.Code:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
This is for those that accuse them of idol worship. As you said in your comment “no one can read another person’s heart, so we can’t say what anyone there was thinking”. This I agree with you 100% (I apologize for implying you knew, a few days ago).you are wanting someone to clearly state with proof that when the people in the Vatican gardens were bowing down in the circle that they were actually worshipping the little statues there.
This reminds of when non-Catholics accuse us Catholics of bowing or kneeling before a statue. Protestants/ Reformers can and do say the very same things about us Catholics.IMHO, we can look at the actions and the posture of the people, the bowing down which by definition is considered an act of showing submission to someone or something.
The Vatican can certainly be criticized for sowing confusion and ineptitude. The situation was handled very badly.Also, as far as I know, no one has come out and explained anything different regarding what happened in the gardens, so we have no other proof of anything else happening or any other explanation from anyone of anything else happening
And those that are anti- Pope Francis, this is just gas for the fireThen there are those who have no “anti-Pope Francis” agenda who were so scandalized and bothered by the Vatican garden event and also have knowledge of what those idols represent.
And here is what Bp Schneider has to say…The crimes of blasphemy and sacrilege have been committed. Putting a demon image …which is what it is. .right in the sight of God in his holy place…his Catholic church…
Only burning the images publicly or throwing them (preferably burning ) into the river would suffice as atonement and reparation.
I cannot see why any Catholic does not feel the same way.
Blasphemy and sacrilege come way above theft in the way of commandments
Thank you for posting the quotes from Bishop Schneider. Any reasonable and fair person could see from the video footage that it was an offering to and worship of P-achamama—goddess of fertility in the Amazon. It was idolatry. This was the same pagan ceremony that have been performed for centuries. It was always intended to worship this idol goddess. Father Mitch Pacwa (EWTN) clarified recently that in certain regions of Peru, the hierarchy of the deities are (from top): The mountain deities, P-achamama, then the Virgin Mary and the saints.And here is what Bp Schneider has to say…
Speaking about the idolatrous worship of Pachamama statues during the Amazon Synod in Rome, the prelate says: “We have to condemn this.” “Idolatry,” he adds, “is a violation of Divine Revelation” and of the First Commandment. “You cannot commit acts of idolatry in the Catholic Church.”
No problem. yes, we don’t know what they were thinking and we don’t know if everyone there even knew what was going to happen at the ceremony. I do always believe there are two sides to every story.no one can read another person’s heart, so we can’t say what anyone there was thinking”. This I agree with you 100% (I apologize for implying you knew, a few days ago).
Perhaps this is also what has so many Catholics upset, the scandal that was caused, that would cause those outside the Catholic church to say, “see, we told you Catholics worship idols”.This reminds of when non-Catholics accuse us Catholics of bowing or kneeling before a statue. Protestants/ Reformers can and do say the very same things about us Catholics.
AgreeThe Vatican can certainly be criticized for sowing confusion and ineptitude. The situation was handled very badly.
Well put. Thank you. Peter told Christ that he loved Him. Christ then entrusted Peter with the responsibility to “feed” His sheep, and with the responsibility to hold the “key” to Heaven.Everybody seems to want to bend over backwards to claim the purest of motives: “After all, Catholics have taken pagan symbols and ‘rechristened’ them so this is just the same thing”.
And of course, "we meet people where they are’ (and then we just stand there and let things continue. Heaven forbid we try to help people advance toward the Lord if they’re happy standing away from Him!)
And the crowning 11th commandment: "Thou shalt not make anybody (except trads) feel bad about anything.’
No, we are not ‘anti-Pope Francis". We are not racist. We are not haters. We are not ignorant elitists. We aren’t Pharisees, standing back from the "not like us’ and bleating how thankful we are that we are perfect people instead of ignorant ‘others’.
We are Catholics; we are men and women, old and young, rich and poor, black, white, yellow, and we are all sinners, but that does not mean that because we ourselves sin that we cannot recognize and ‘call out’ objective sin. As Christians, it is part of our job to use wisdom to determine if something appears to be or is sinful, prudence to speak about it, and fortitude to remain steadfastly saying, when something is wrong, “This is wrong” when everybody is demanding to 'be nice. Stop talking. Don’t make people feel bad. Things change. It’s all relative" etc. etc.
Indeed.No, we are not ‘anti-Pope Francis". We are not racist. We are not haters. We are not ignorant elitists. We aren’t Pharisees, standing back from the "not like us’ and bleating how thankful we are that we are perfect people instead of ignorant ‘others’.
Totally agree with you.Blasphemy and sacrilege come way above theft in the way of commandments
And worse so that some are defending idolatry.hard to believe that some are defending this act of vandalism…
I haven’t seen anyone defending idolatry…And worse so that some are defending idolatry.