One of the men who threw the Idols (Pachamama) in the Tiber speaks!

[GiftofMercy]

Would these people be scandalised if not for the agitating anti Pope Francis zealots? I think not. The genuine old Catholics are quite used to hearing about things that are surprising to them. Pope St John Paul II and his fearless welcome to praying with other faiths and his treatise on the nature of heaven, hell and purgatory and his stance on the death penalty and salvation outside the Church. All these things that that ‘type’ find so offensive, have been nevertheless accepted as challenges to grow in faith by the old Catholics.

No I think not. The scandal mongers love to shift the blame to anywhere but their own pride.

This is not anti pope, zealots, it is normal run of the mill meek mild poverished peacemaking laity who are saying this is wrong, we are scandalised

It is people who love the Pope, love the Church, love everything it stands for.

Why do you keep insisting it is the fringe dwellers ? It isn’t. That is disingenuous to state that it is only fringe dwellers

These are genuine Old Catholics, cradle catholics, been there done that since birth, went with whatever was decreed, changed faithfully to the OF Mass,

Scandal! And what do you make of that prayer? the one to the pagan diety, the pagan god, the demon, p…mama.

And before anyone says it is not a demon, we are told, in the Bible, all pagan gods, all gentile gods, all demons!

and how dare you call me or anyone else scandalised by this act a scandal monger!

 

[GiftofMercy]

I have only found it ‘scandalising’ a certain type. 2 of my kids are very involved in the diocesan youth ministry and report that no one is talking about it. We are faithful to Pope Francis to the end and trust him in leading us in these times of “the last things” by challenging us to grow in discernment.

I am faithful to the Magisterium and Pope Francis, as are many people I am speaking to who are Scandalised.

And this is precisely why we are scandalised. Because we trust them. And this unwise, unthinking , un researched act has shattered people

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Yes. Our teachers and principal are scandalized by this pachamama garbage. Every Catholic needs to know about this demon idol that some are using to blaspheme the Mother of God.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Yes. Shameful to defend pagan idolatry.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

There is no neccessity.

 

[Jen7]

I am faithful to the Magisterium and Pope Francis, as are many people I am speaking to who are Scandalised.

And this is precisely why we are scandalised. Because we trust them. And this unwise, unthinking , un researched act has shattered people

Well said!! oint_up_2:t2:oint_up_2:t2:oint_up_2:t2:

 

[goout]

Theft of items that do not belong to you does not address idolatry.
Material objects are not morally evaluated, human acts are morally evaluated. Material objects are morally neutral. The way a human being acts and uses them is morally evaluated. Idolatry does not reside in the idol. “Punishing” the idol might be satisfying to the passions, but the idol is not “guilty”.

The person in question clearly commits theft. He fits a textbook example by any sane observer. The Catechism teaches about the fifth commandment here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

Catechism on morality:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm

[1756] It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

And:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

[1789] Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;

He does not address idolatry in a legitimate way by theft of the items. By contrast, taking the items from the altar and setting them in the storage area can be a legitimate way.
Or any other actions of vigil, prayer, or protest.

By comparison, it is not legitimate to solve the evil of human poverty and destitution by abortion.
It is not legitimate to solve the evil of abortion by killing an abortionist.
It is not legitimate to get your kid into Stanford by lying to the admissions dept.
(but my kid can only get the professor he needs at Stanford and it’s good that goes there!)

Consequentialism (which is textbook displayed throughout this thread) is condemned.
And Catholics need to have a better understanding of morality than the relativist apologists that are abounding in our culture, who believe that passion towards a good end justifies evil actions.

If you can’t reason your way through this simple cut and dried moral situation, do not expect to leaven our culture with good moral virtue.

 

[Taras_Bulba]

Not-cha-mama has lawyered-up nicely.

 

[Randolph]

I am faithful to the Magisterium and Pope Francis, as are many people I am speaking to who are Scandalised.

And this is precisely why we are scandalised. Because we trust them. And this unwise, unthinking , un researched act has shattered people

It’s impossible to argue with facts (with video evidence proof which people could see for themselves) that a group of people, on Vatican grounds, knelt and prostrated themselves, and made an offering to pagan idols—idols which Pope Francis himself identified as “Pachamana”. Pope Francis then was seen in the video to bless something presented to him by the master of ceremony of this pagan ceremony. This was not a case where Catholic missionaries were attending a pagan ceremony in the Amazon where the natives live—and where the missionaries would have had to be very delicate in their efforts to bring Christ to the natives. In this case, the natives and participants were invited to the Vatican to perform this pagan ceremony.

This act of idolatry is scandalizing the Church, and it is confusing to the faithful and to the world. It’s idolatry akin to the Golden Calf in biblical time as Bishop Schneider put it. It is a violation of the very First Commandment that God Himself handed to Moses. I know with certainty that my friends are talking about it; people are talking about it in my church; people are talking about it in the US; and people are talking about it in the country of my birth in Asia.

All popes, including Pope Francis, are Vicars of Christ, Successors of Peter, and Servants of God. They are shepherds of the Church and are worthy of our love, respect and prayers. Catholics are to obey them in matters of faith and morals as long as they themselves are also in obedience to God and in communion with the Magisterium. Popes are mortal men and are sinners. They make mistakes. Catholics are not papists. We simply don’t just blindly follow or defend any mortal man. We also have the Gospels, the Catechism, and the Magisterium to guide us.

 

[JimmyDFG]

he is not speaking for everyone. just himself

well you are claiming My Pope is speaking for everyone when you state that his statement about no idolatrous intentions are a blanket statement.

Consider he did not say he was only speaking for himself on that matter. It’s odd that he would leave that out. The pope knows better to clarify what the intentions are.
Ask yourself, why didn’t the pope say he was only speaking for “just himself” when he was speaking to everyone that was there, including reporters, leading people into this “scandal”?
Why would the pope put people in error believing that it was “without idolatrous intentions”?
You’re only picking and choosing what you want to believe on this matter.

And this is precisely why we are scandalised. Because we trust them. And this unwise, unthinking , un researched act has shattered people

I’m glad you brought this up.
Can you get quotes from those indigenous and clergy (at the time in question), verifying that they rendered adoration to idols that would verify that they are idolaters?? Where they
confirm that they deny the divinity of Christ, and affirm the divinity of Pachamama?
I’ve asked this to a few people but I get… nothing

 

[Randolph]

Consider he did not say he was only speaking for himself on that matter. It’s odd that he would leave that out. The pope knows better to clarify what the intentions are.
Ask yourself, why didn’t the pope say he was only speaking for “just himself” when he was speaking to everyone that was there, including reporters, leading people into this “scandal”?
Why would the pope put people in error believing that it was “without idolatrous intentions”?
You’re only picking and choosing what you want to believe on this matter.

If not for himself, then whom did the pope speak for? And prove it!!! How would the pope know what other people’s intentions are?

Mind you that this same offering and worship to Pachamana—the pagan goddess of fertility—has often been done in the Amazon for many centuries. Their intentions were always the offering and the worshiping to this pagan goddess. It is absurd and dishonest to suddenly presume that it is not because it was performed in the Vatican—where idolatry is forbidden.

It would be equally insane to say that a Mass said in Rome has always been an act of worshiping God. But when the same Mass is said in the Amazon, it is not because the intention of worshiping God is not there.

 

[Taras_Bulba]

It isn’t a crime if the perpetrator doesn’t admit to it?

 

[GiftofMercy]

Consider he …

This was a memo to a press office. My Pope, did not speak directly to the public in this memo. Is there an updated version given directly by My Pope to the public.
Ask yourself why My Pope deliberately named the p…mamma… After all the controversy.

Why would My Pope then deliberately make the statement that it was without idolatrous intentions? Firstly, that tells us Pope Francis is fully aware of the significance of a P…mama.

You’re only picking and choosing what you want to believe on this matter.

This is insulting and condescending. I could respond by saying you have your blinkers on, I did initially have my own blinkers on over this. That was shattered when My Pope came out with this Memo to his press office.

I have a right to be scandalised. In any document you will read , both post VII and pre VII , the right and sanctity of Sacred Spaces must be upheld. And if profaned, then rites are to be enacted before they are used again.

We are called to be faithful to Jesus, to what Jesus taught, to God, to what God taught, in both the Old and New Testament. We as Catholics must know in detail what our faith is about.
Do you turn off a tv show when you hear language offensive to God or when you are watching a simulated or a real sin? Do you turn off music with lyrics and video that are offensive to God, or do you let it slide.
That is a question every Catholic should be asking of themselves. How far do we as individuals raise that bar.

Can you get quotes …

I am glad you brought this up. An excellent question.

I await your provision of statements and quotes that absolutely everyone had absolutely NO idolatorous intentions.
I have Columbian friends who are Catholic and have incredibly scandalised family in Columbia because they know what p…mama is. Their communities know what these wooden carvings represent.

 

[JimmyDFG]

This was a memo to a press office. My Pope, did not speak directly to the public in this memo

From Vatican.ca the official website of the Holy See
BULLETIN OF THE HOLY SEE PRESS OFFICE
“The Holy See Press Office Bulletin publishes the official news of the activities of the Holy Father and of the various departments of the Holy See. This includes speeches, messages, and other documents, as well as statements issued by the Director of the Press Office. The Bulletin is released daily in one or more editions. Texts are published in their original language or in official translations provided by the Secretariat of State. In the English and Spanish sections, working translations of those texts are sometimes available.”

The Holy See Press Office has provided a transcription of Pope Francis’s remarks concerning several indigenous statues, stolen and thrown into the Tiber River.
The Vatican subsequently sent out a transcript to reporters of the Pope’s remarks.
What do you think reporters/journalist do?

The pope said:
“Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the pachamama statues that were removed from the Church at Traspontina, which were there without idolatrous intentions and were thrown into the Tiber.”

You believe him when he names the statues but you don’t believe him OR you believe he was speaking for himself when he said “without idolatrous intentions”. All within one sentence. It seems you don’t believe him is the underlying issue.

Just for the sake of argument, if… IF he was speaking only for himself, why don’t you believe him (on this matter)?

This is insulting and condescending

By your very own actions?

I am glad you brought this up. An excellent question.

I await your provision of statements and quotes that absolutely everyone had absolutely NO idolatorous intentions.

This is just a cop-out.
You’re unable to show proof, so rather than admit defeat on this matter, you take the easy “unresearched” route by asking my question to me without answering. Childish, to say the least

 

[vz71]

You believe him when he names the statues but you don’t believe him OR you believe he was speaking for himself when he said “without idolatrous intentions”.

It doesn’t matter the intent.
That pagan idol had no business being in the Church.

 

[vz71]

Can you get quotes from those indigenous and clergy (at the time in question), verifying that they rendered adoration to idols that would verify that they are idolaters??

Would the pachamama prayer be adequate?

 

[GiftofMercy]

This is just a cop-out.
You’re unable to show proof, so rather than admit defeat on this matter, you take the easy “unresearched” route by asking my question to me without answering. Childish, to say the least

I will leave you to quietly wave your win lose flag around on the steps of your stance.

so rather than admit defeat on this matter,

I stand with all those laity, clergy, and now non catholics who have started asking questions about this. Those who listen and say we are scandalised.
This action has scandalised and confused us. And if you care to start looking around and listening, you will see this is the case.

Your uncharitable insults and opinion that discourse is to be a win or lose is one I will not engage in.

Childish, to say the least

Good day to you.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

It doesn’t matter the intent.
That pagan idol had no business being in the Church.

BRAVO!!!

 

[Divine3]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Divine3]

No mass media in the time of Christ. If there had been…hmm. Galilean Times- Reporting on the Gospel account of Jesus’s zeal for temple as a house of prayer –
TEMPLE GETS NEW LOOK --Jesus the Nazarene drives out moneychangers by overturning tables and says, “My house shall be called a house of prayer. Not a den of robbers.”
The Scribe & Pharisee Tribune **TEMPLE DEFILED** --The Chief priests are investigating the possibility of Jesus being possessed by Beelzebul. The Nazarene preacher was seen in the Holy Temple, violently overturning furniture and disrupting people as the prayed.
We live in a world of the mass media and this will always affect how the Church is viewed by others. Either positively or negatively…words can convey truth, and unity as well as discord and blatant lies.