One sin and it's hell forever?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fenderstrokes
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi, just noticed this thread, must have been the one Mozart was referring to in another thread, I answered this question for him. If you want to see, it’s at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1444300#post1444300
Basic point I make is that committing mortal sin and never repenting it is no simple thing or something you can do by accident, it requires a full change of heart away from God. If you end up in hell you have actually deserved it.
 
Hi all,

I’d like to try and explain how I interpret the views of this topic and for your comments on if it seems orthodox. (BTW, the numbering means nothing. Just a way to separate some thoughts for me)
  1. When we are born from above, we are called to turn towards God through Christ. We must desire our nature to die and allow Christ instead to work through us. If the Holy Spirit is indwelling within us, He is constanly pushing us on our path to The Father.
  2. We are always in a state of conversion, either towards God or away.
  3. Before we commit an act of evil/sin, we commit our souls to it first, therefore we sin before our body acts towards that compulsion.
  4. After any time our souls are tempted with sin (regardless if the sin is manifested through us), if we are truly being converted TOWARDS God, we will repent of that consent of sin immediatly.
  5. The actual act (or failure to act) of sin/evil, is not what condems us, but actually the conversion of our soul. If we are born from above and through our free will cooperate with God’s urging and Christ is able to work through us, our souls are the Lords.
  6. When our free will turns towards the world, it is not the actual sinful/evil acts that we do that condems us, but our conversion to the world that condems us. We can know this because of our reluctance and refusal to repent of even the smallest transgression towards the Lord.
  7. When tempted to sin, we must strongly pray to God to resist wanting to sin along with protecting us from actually entering into sin.
Ok, I guess what I’m mainly thinking is that The Lord’s sheep will HATE sin, and never want to enter into it or want to do it. His sheep can still be tempted and enter into sin, but when this happens, immediate repentance occurs. Even if in the last moments of life, if one is to fall into sin but is converted toward the Lord through Christ, he will truly repent. Praise Lord Jesus

Take care
 
In essence, the Church teaches that Heaven is for those who have conformed their heart, mind and soul to that of God. We know that nobody is capable of this w/o graces from God, graces given to us because God wants us with Him for eternity. Even then with all these graces, we won’t earn or merit heaven but for the mercy of Christ.

But the Church teaches that we can lose Heaven with a single act of turning away and rejecting the love of God. We have no idea if the person’s act was a casual decision of selfishness or a conscious act of rejecting God. Only God can see into his heart.

I find it unlikely that a person who had lived a good virtuous life in fidelity to God would turn away in total. And since we can pray for the repose of the souls of our departed loved ones, we should do so, especially when it is so likely that this (and probably all) soul needs the cleansing gained in Purgatory.
 
Eileen T:
Choosing to go to a baseball game rather than worshipping God is much, much worse than commiting murder. But that’s just my opinion.
Click to expand...
And I believe you’re wrong, otherwise, people would be required to go to Mass even if they work at the emergency room in a hospital and they had to let a patient who needed immediate medical care die in order to make Mass. When you miss Mass, you don’t hurt God. You’re only hurting yourself. Murder, OTOH, you’re harming another person.
 
40.png
CrossoverManiac:
When you miss Mass, you don’t hurt God. You’re only hurting yourself. Murder, OTOH, you’re harming another person.
Click to expand...
Of course you hurt God by missing Mass! You’re failing to give him what is his due and what anyone who loves him would willingly give - an hour or two of your time each week to go into his real and physical presence in the tabernacle, hear his word and participate in giving glory and thanks to him with the community of his followers. Considering that he’s given you everything you are and have, it’s very little to ask in return.

Remember, there are people out there who love God so much that they WANT to go to Mass, Adoration and other prayer services, simply because they long to sit in the church and be with him. And not just on Sundays but every day. Very simply if you love someone, anyone, you spend time with them rather than ignoring them for a baseball game.
 
40.png
LilyM:
Of course you hurt God by missing Mass! You’re failing to give him what is his due and what anyone who loves him would willingly give - an hour or two of your time each week to go into his real and physical presence in the tabernacle, hear his word and participate in giving glory and thanks to him with the community of his followers. Considering that he’s given you everything you are and have, it’s very little to ask in return.
Click to expand...
So, you think missing Mass is worse than murder?
 
40.png
fenderstrokes:
So Madrid is preaching Catholic theology then? How could God be so cruel to condemn a lifelong friend of his for one mistake…however poorly timed? By logical extention…any non-Catholics who do not attend Confession through the Catholic Church is doomed! Right?

Dan
Click to expand...
A mistake is wearing a polka dot tie with a striped shirt. That is a mistake.

A sin is not a mistake. It is a deliberate choice. It is a choice to choose one’s own desires as opposed to choosing what God would have us do. It is choosing self over God.

God does not condemn us to hell. We choose hell over God; He simply respects us, and respects our freedom to choose so much that He will not interfere with our choice. God is not cruel; God is simply just. And His justice is that He created us with free will, the ability to choose Him or reject Him.

Speaking of God’s justice as God being cruel in condemning us to hell for one mistake is simply speaking in terms of denial of personal responsibility for our own choices. No one holds a gun to our head making us choose sin. We do it of our own free will, and we do it deliberatly.
 
40.png
CrossoverManiac:
And I believe you’re wrong, otherwise, people would be required to go to Mass even if they work at the emergency room in a hospital and they had to let a patient who needed immediate medical care die in order to make Mass. When you miss Mass, you don’t hurt God. You’re only hurting yourself. Murder, OTOH, you’re harming another person.
Click to expand...
I would say that you are hurting more than yourself. You do not go to Mass by yourself; Mass is the act of worship of the community; when you skip Mass you are also hurting the community to which you belong. And if that doesn’t make sense, go read Paul and what he has to say about the mystical Body of Christ.
 
The scenario you provided is absurd. A lifelong, faithful Catholic would not miss Mass for a baseball game. He would go to a Vigil Mass, an early morning Mass, etc.

If you intentionally miss Mass knowing how important it is, it is a mortal sin (full knowledge, gravity, full consent). If you miss it by mistake or without, it would be a venial sin.
 
40.png
CrossoverManiac:
So, you think missing Mass is worse than murder?
Click to expand...
mortal is mortal is mortal - doesn’t matter if one mortal sin is worse than or better than another, any one of 'em is serious enough to be a slap in God’s face and take you to hell. That’s what matters.
 
40.png
LilyM:
mortal is mortal is mortal - doesn’t matter if one mortal sin is worse than or better than another, any one of 'em is serious enough to be a slap in God’s face and take you to hell. That’s what matters.
Click to expand...
Question: for OT Jews, you’d put murder on equal footing than making the Passover sacrifice? Just answer yes or no.
 
Eileen T:
Choosing to go to a baseball game rather than worshipping God is much, much worse than commiting murder. But that’s just my opinion.
Click to expand...
you are a total sicko. that’s just my opinion.
 
40.png
CrossoverManiac:
Question: for OT Jews, you’d put murder on equal footing than making the Passover sacrifice? Just answer yes or no.
Click to expand...
Short answer - Probably not, and it doesn’t matter.

Longer answer - I’m not an old Testament Jew nor am I God. Comparing OT and NT sins is apples and oranges - they didn’t have the concept of mortal sin nor sacramental confession.

HOWEVER, God struck one person dead for touching the Ark of the Covenant and two others dead for improperly offering fire to him - clearly he takes worship seriously.
 
40.png
LilyM:
Short answer - Probably not, and it doesn’t matter.
Click to expand...
It most certainly does. In the New Testament, Jesus tells the crowds if they have wrong their brother, go and make peace him even if it means abandoning their burnt offering at the alter and that God cares more for obedience than burnt offering. IOW: inward commitment to God is more important than outward shows of worship. And as important as Mass is, it’s worse to take the life of a human being. Because God is more concerned about how a person spend the other 167 hours per week outside of Mass than the one hour he’s there…
 
40.png
LilyM:
HOWEVER, God struck one person dead for touching the Ark of the Covenant and two others dead for improperly offering fire to him - clearly he takes worship seriously.
Click to expand...
Oh did you run off and edit your post for little old me? He took worship seriously, but he took murder even more so.
 
From theseason.org/I_chronicles/I_chronicles15.htm
With all the best laid plans by David and the men of Judah, a new cart had been built for the moving of the ark, and this new cart would be pulled behind oxen. This was against the instructions of God, as to how and by whom the ark was to be moved. As the ark was being moved, the oxen started to trip, and in an instant, young Uzza, the fellow in charge of the movement reached out and touched the ark with his hand, and God smote him dead instantly. God gave His instructions to Moses as to how the ark was to be moved, and the use of oxen and a cart went contrary to the Divinely prescribed law, as given in Numbers 4:15; “…the sons of Kohath shall bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die, These things are the burden of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation.” God prescribed only the Levite family of Kohath to have the responsibility of the movement of the ark, and only after Aaron’s family had prepared the ark for movement.
Click to expand...
This goes beyond some poor guy just touching the Ark and dying.
 
You missed the part of Jesus’ statement where he says ‘make peace with your brother THEN COME BACK and offer’. Missing worship because you have some important obligation to fulfil or sin to rectify is one thing. Working on a Sunday because you need to to support your family is an example where it’s acceptable to miss Mass.

Missing for a ballgame or because you just don’t feel like going is another situation entirely. You need a serious reason to miss, not just neglect/laziness/selfishness/‘don’t feel like it’.

And what was the point of your comment about the Ark? The man was acting contrary to the command of God in whatever fashion and circumstances. GOD considered the offence serious enough to kill him, although someone reading the account might not easily see why. His ways are most certainly not ours.

Ultimately the ‘murder is worse than missing mass’ thing IS totally irrelevant to the topic of this thread. One unrepented mortal sin, whether it’s murder, adultery, theft or missing mass without good reason, is serious enough in and of itself to send you to hell. I never said or believe that all mortal sins were equal, but they are all serious. The aim is not to commit any of them, regardless of where they fit on the hierarchy.

Sheesh!
 
Yep. I remember in 1 thread I was asking about mitigating circumstances (means reduced blame for the sin) - can a mortal sin have mitigating circumstances and still remain mortal? They said yes. So it’s not as bad if there were no mitigating circumstances, but it still gets you sent to hell? Yes. Point is that even though any mortal sin can get you sent to hell, some mortal sins are worse than others.

So then 1 thing in saying whether 1 sin is worse than another, is that it depends on the circumstances. However, is there a way of weighing up ‘classes’ of sins - missing mass in general versus murder in general? If there is, I’m not aware of it, but there is 1 thing that I know about it. Murder is a matter of natural moral law which means it’s buried deep in our conscience and it goes totally against human nature to do it - the requirement of full knowledge is always met for cases of murder. Why do you think that even atheists think that it is wrong? Because everyone knows that it is. On the other hand, going to church is a rule that you learn, many people would probably not even be aware that missing mass is a grave matter. So it seems that murder is in general more serious than missing mass.

However, I could be wrong. Safest option is just to never commit either of those sins (-:
 
I would like to know who decided that missing Mass was a mortal sin and how did this person come that conclusion since no where in the New Testament does it says missing Mass would cause a person to be damned to Hell.
 
40.png
Flopfoot:
Yep. I remember in 1 thread I was asking about mitigating circumstances (means reduced blame for the sin) - can a mortal sin have mitigating circumstances and still remain mortal? They said yes. So it’s not as bad if there were no mitigating circumstances, but it still gets you sent to hell? Yes. Point is that even though any mortal sin can get you sent to hell, some mortal sins are worse than others.

So then 1 thing in saying whether 1 sin is worse than another, is that it depends on the circumstances. However, is there a way of weighing up ‘classes’ of sins - missing mass in general versus murder in general? If there is, I’m not aware of it, but there is 1 thing that I know about it. Murder is a matter of natural moral law which means it’s buried deep in our conscience and it goes totally against human nature to do it - the requirement of full knowledge is always met for cases of murder. Why do you think that even atheists think that it is wrong? Because everyone knows that it is. On the other hand, going to church is a rule that you learn, many people would probably not even be aware that missing mass is a grave matter. So it seems that murder is in general more serious than missing mass.

However, I could be wrong. Safest option is just to never commit either of those sins (-:
Click to expand...
From the CCC

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

I once had a Priest say that the most common but least confessed mortal sin is “bearing false witness.” It happens when we gossip, especially if we don’t have all the facts or we do so w/ malice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top