One sin and it's hell forever?

[LilyM]

CrossoverManiac:

I would like to know who decided that missing Mass was a mortal sin and how did this person come that conclusion since no where in the New Testament does it says missing Mass would cause a person to be damned to Hell.

Person? How about 1 billion odd people deciding it and believing it?

How about the Old Testament? Honour the Sabbath and all that? It’s a commandment for a reason, and we know the Jews honoured it by going to their synagogues and had a whole lot more restrictions as to what could be done than we do. We know Jesus and Paul went to synagogues and regularly celebrated the breaking of the bread.Why should we not at least go to Mass on Sunday, OUR Sabbath, then?

If you don’t go to Mass, Sunday becomes either just like any other weekday with work, shopping and chores or just like Saturday with the ballgames. Sunday needs something special, holy, and UNIQUE about it, otherwise there’s no honour in it. The unique thing is Mass.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

LilyM:

Person? How about 1 billion odd people deciding it and believing it?

Appeal to popularity. Popularity don’t make it right. And I doubt all one billion Catholics believe it is a mortal sin otherwise church attendance would be higher than it is.

How about the Old Testament? Honour the Sabbath and all that? It’s a commandment for a reason, and we know the Jews honoured it by going to their synagogues and had a whole lot more restrictions as to what could be done than we do. Why should we not at least go to Mass on Sunday, OUR Sabbath, then?

Now where did I say Sunday wasn’t a Holy Day. I asked how was it decided missing Mass was a mortal sin.

If you don’t go to Mass, Sunday becomes either just like any other weekday with work, shopping and chores or just like Saturday with the ballgames. Sunday needs something special, holy, and UNIQUE about it, otherwise there’s no honour in it. The unique thing is Mass.

looking over previous post No, no mention of Sunday not being a Holy Day here.

 

[LilyM]

CrossoverManiac:

Appeal to popularity. Popularity don’t make it right. And I doubt all one billion Catholics believe it is a mortal sin otherwise church attendance would be higher than it is.

A fair number of non-Catholic Christians also believe missing church on Sunday is a matter for being sent to hell - altogether it quite probably would be not too much less than a billion either attending church each Sunday or only missing for work, illness or travel etc

I’m not appealing to popularity at all, I know there’d be, unfortunately, significantly more Christians who aren’t regular churchgoers than who do go. I’m just disputing your implication that it is or ever has been the idea of one lone ‘person’ or a small minority of Christians.

And if you agree that Sunday worship falls under the commandments then how can you say that missing it for no reason wouldn’t be a serious matter? Clearly GOD puts it in the same league as adultery, murder, idolatry etc by including it among them. If they’re mortal sins, for which people can go to hell, then so is missing mass unnecessarily.

 

[Mordocai]

also, to go to hell, you must die UNREPENTENT in mortal sin.
meaning, if that guy in the scenario missed mass on purpose, and was a life long friend of God (to put it in those terms) no DOUBT he would definitely regret what he did and repent of it in his heart. if he died, God would see the repentent soul, and he would not be condemned to hell. although if he lived!!! he would have a serious obligation to go to confession, even the point of, putting it off would be a further sin (dunno if it’d be mortal, but im not a moral theologian.)

This guy in the scenario wasn’t exactly working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

Our sense of justice is screwy also, we think it’s “not fair” to condemn a life long faithful Christian who in the last day of their life, commits mortal sin and is then unrepentent. God judges so we don’t have to.

just some thoughts…
mordocai

 

[johnnykins]

The key here is “motal sin.”

To be a mortal sin you must have 3 things:

1. A grave matter
2. You must know it’s a grave matter
3. You must freely chose to do it

We know we have 1 in the scenario. By saying “mortal sin” you are implying 2 and 3. So yes, one mortal sin - and that’s it.

Catholics often use “mortal sin” to refer simply to 1. Or sometimes we will say something is “objectively a mortal sin” meaning 1.

Whether something is a mortal sin is known but to God - that’s why we are told to go to sacramental confession for a grave matter. We may assume or presume something is a mortal sin but God knows authoritatively. We need to act as if it is a mortal sin when we have commited a grave sin so that we don’t fall into presumption, pride, etc. BTW deliberate ignorance doesn’t help here. Yet, I take Hope that because God became human - he knows our weaknesses and faults - and thus His justice is tempered by true mercy.

In your question assuming some leaway in what you mean by “mortal sin” I would hope that there is some mitigating circumstance concerning the fall of such a person. It’s comforting to be able to leave the issue up to God who knows everyone’s heart.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Mordocai:

also, to go to hell, you must die UNREPENTENT in mortal sin.
meaning, if that guy in the scenario missed mass on purpose, and was a life long friend of God (to put it in those terms) no DOUBT he would definitely regret what he did and repent of it in his heart. if he died, God would see the repentent soul, and he would not be condemned to hell. although if he lived!!! he would have a serious obligation to go to confession, even the point of, putting it off would be a further sin (dunno if it’d be mortal, but im not a moral theologian.)

This guy in the scenario wasn’t exactly working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

Our sense of justice is screwy also, we think it’s “not fair” to condemn a life long faithful Christian who in the last day of their life, commits mortal sin and is then unrepentent. God judges so we don’t have to.

just some thoughts…
mordocai

Great point. You are raising the issue of “confession by intent” which means that if one repents in his heart (that only God sees) between when he commits the sin and is able to go to Confession, we assert that the mercy of God will give weight to this repentance (while not absolved and in need of being purged) at Judgment.

 

[Mom_of_5]

I believe that we have a great and merciful God. I do not believe that He would have any of His children go to hell for all eternity for missing Sunday Mass. Actually, as I recall, He says to keep the sabbath holy, He didn’t say “go to mass or you commit a mortal sin”. Or, if He did, show me where. The church decided how we are going to keep the sabbath holy. There are many ways to keep the sabbath holy. I realize that the church speaks for God, however, in the past, the church has changed Her mind on what sends you to hell. IE: eating meat on Friday. I remember getting VERY upset as a child if I forgot and put meat in my mouth on Friday. I think there are far more important reasons to go to hell than to miss a mass or eat meat. I think that common sense is often left out of the equation.

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

 

[fix]

Mom of 5:

I believe that we have a great and merciful God. I do not believe that He would have any of His children go to hell for all eternity for missing Sunday Mass. Actually, as I recall, He says to keep the sabbath holy, He didn’t say “go to mass or you commit a mortal sin”. Or, if He did, show me where. The church decided how we are going to keep the sabbath holy. There are many ways to keep the sabbath holy. I realize that the church speaks for God, however, in the past, the church has changed Her mind on what sends you to hell. IE: eating meat on Friday. I remember getting VERY upset as a child if I forgot and put meat in my mouth on Friday. I think there are far more important reasons to go to hell than to miss a mass or eat meat. I think that common sense is often left out of the equation.

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

So, the Church is not the authority and should not be trusted, but you are the authority?

 

[johnnykins]

Mom of 5:

I believe that we have a great and merciful God. I do not believe that He would have any of His children go to hell for all eternity for missing Sunday Mass. Actually, as I recall, He says to keep the sabbath holy, He didn’t say “go to mass or you commit a mortal sin”. Or, if He did, show me where. The church decided how we are going to keep the sabbath holy. There are many ways to keep the sabbath holy. I realize that the church speaks for God, however, in the past, the church has changed Her mind on what sends you to hell. IE: eating meat on Friday. I remember getting VERY upset as a child if I forgot and put meat in my mouth on Friday. I think there are far more important reasons to go to hell than to miss a mass or eat meat. I think that common sense is often left out of the equation.

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

Rejection of God - by committing knowingly and will full intent a grave sin sends us to Hell. How things were presented to children in the past was often less than ideal. But, this was simplifying things for children.

 

[Mom_of_5]

fix:

So, the Church is not the authority and should not be trusted, but you are the authority?

I didn’t say that!!! How ridiculous!!I I do think we get carried away in sending souls to hell. Not long a go I was accused of saying that one of our relatives was going to hell because she had an abortion. This young woman died in her sleep about a year after the abortion. No one has been told what she died of. I do know that the abortion weighed on her mind and she was very sorry for it. (She was not Catholic.) I think the person who started that rumor is more likely to go to hell than the young lady who had an abortion and suffered greatly. The person who told that story probably thinks that all Catholics believe that anyone who has had an abortion will go to hell. I cannot judge a persons soul, only actions. Therefore, I would NEVER place ANYONE in hell for ANYTHING!! Let God do that if HE wishes. As Catholics we are sometimes so “holy” we forget who is in charge. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. I got a good education in many ways but I also became quite paranoid, always afraid I was sinning. As I matured I realized that the church is made up of people and they do not always teach or know the truth and sometimes are more than strict that God. I love my church and have been Catholic for nearly 67 years. I imagine there are lots of young Catholics who can teach me a lot, but perhaps the most important thing for everyone to learn is to use COMMON SENSE as I have stated before. GOD is love, all powerful and understanding and all forgiving. He knows we are human, He made us that way. If a person has been a good and loyal follower and misses mass to go fishing on a beautiful sunny Sunday morning, or goes to a ball game and dies of a heart attack, I cannot believe that God would send HIm/her to hell for all eternity. All the good the person has done all his/her life is not remembered by God??? All God saw was that that person missed that Sunday’s mass???

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

 

[fix]

Mom of 5:

but perhaps the most important thing for everyone to learn is to use COMMON SENSE as I have stated before. GOD is love, all powerful and understanding and all forgiving. He knows we are human, He made us that way. If a person has been a good and loyal follower and misses mass to go fishing on a beautiful sunny Sunday morning, or goes to a ball game and dies of a heart attack, I cannot believe that God would send HIm/her to hell for all eternity. All the good the person has done all his/her life is not remembered by God??? All God saw was that that person missed that Sunday’s mass???

Why would a “good” person choose to disobey God and intentionally refuse to attend mass? You portray this issue as a simple choice that does not involve grave matter. Also, it seems from what you have said that the authority of the Church in these matters is non binding and arbitrary. Either Church is who She says She is, or the entire faith is false.

Each day we make choices to say yes or no to God.

 

[Palamite]

I’m not sure if anybody’s mentioned it, but the whole “Sunday obligation” thing is not a matter of divine decree, but Catholic Church discipline - IOW. it’s the Pope who makes it a “mortal sin”, not the 10 Commandments. The same used to be true of eating flesh meat on all Fridays of the year. Now it’s not.

 

[fix]

Palamite:

I’m not sure if anybody’s mentioned it, but the whole “Sunday obligation” thing is not a matter of divine decree, but Catholic Church discipline - IOW. it’s the Pope who makes it a “mortal sin”, not the 10 Commandments. The same used to be true of eating flesh meat on all Fridays of the year. Now it’s not.

It is still a serious sin. The Church is the legitimate authority in this matter.

 

[johnnykins]

Palamite:

I’m not sure if anybody’s mentioned it, but the whole “Sunday obligation” thing is not a matter of divine decree, but Catholic Church discipline - IOW. it’s the Pope who makes it a “mortal sin”, not the 10 Commandments. The same used to be true of eating flesh meat on all Fridays of the year. Now it’s not.

It was not the eating of meat, per se, that was grave - it was the deliberate failure to follow of a valid rule by Christ’s Church. It just so happened that the rule at issue was eating meat. The way things were explained to children was a child’s explanation… Time to move beyond that.

 

[Linnyo]

johnnykins:

It was not the eating of meat, per se, that was grave - it was the deliberate failure to follow of a valid rule by Christ’s Church. It just so happened that the rule at issue was eating meat. The way things were explained to children was a child’s explanation… Time to move beyond that.

I was always taught that rules were made to be broken!

Fix…get a grip! Thou art not any holier than anyone else. You are allowed to accept the infallibility of the pope if you want but don’t expect everyone else to!

 

[Mom_of_5]

Palamite:

I’m not sure if anybody’s mentioned it, but the whole “Sunday obligation” thing is not a matter of divine decree, but Catholic Church discipline - IOW. it’s the Pope who makes it a “mortal sin”, not the 10 Commandments. The same used to be true of eating flesh meat on all Fridays of the year. Now it’s not.

Thank you!!! That is what I tried to say in my posts but somehow got passed over. FIX, guess it is possible that a really good person could decide to enjoy and praise God on a Sunday without attending mass??? I used to go camping with my children in the mountains for a week or 2 at a time. NO church for many, many miles. We said our prayers and thanked God for the beauty that He created for us to enjoy. Now, many years later, I feel blessed that He gave me the time to spend those glorious days with my now grown family and their deceased father. Serious sin??? Should we have gone to mass and skipped our family camping?? I imagine there are those who would send me to hell forever, but I don’t think is it God.

My very dear Catholic dad used to say that the main reason we are to attend mass every sunday is to drop the envelop in the basket. (He never missed unless he was very ill, and sometimes went when he shouldn’t have.) Funny, because our envelops say that if we cannot attend mass we should put it in the mail with our offering. HMMMMMMMM!!! Was old daddy right? (Maybe just a tad.)

Sorry if I am upsetting anyone if my attitude seems outragous for the very “strict” Catholic. We have to learn which battle to fight and what is truly important in our lives. Mother Theresa is my favorite “saint”. She never tried to convert anyone, she helped them but not by condemning. She most likely missed mass to minister to the sick and dying.

Amen!!

Love and peace

 

[fix]

Linnyo:

I was always taught that rules were made to be broken!

Fix…get a grip! Thou art not any holier than anyone else. You are allowed to accept the infallibility of the pope if you want but don’t expect everyone else to!

You should not accept it because I say to accept it. You should accept it because the Church says so. I am not claiming any authority I am binding myself to the Church.

What I cannot grasp is why folks would claim to be Catholic, yet reject the authority of the Church? Either the Church is what She says, or the faith is false.

 

[fix]

Mom of 5:

FIX, guess it is possible that a really good person could decide to enjoy and praise God on a Sunday without attending mass???

I guess it depends on whether we accept there is one truth, or fifty or more opposing “truths”.

I used to go camping with my children in the mountains for a week or 2 at a time. NO church for many, many miles. We said our prayers and thanked God for the beauty that He created for us to enjoy. Now, many years later, I feel blessed that He gave me the time to spend those glorious days with my now grown family and their deceased father. Serious sin??? Should we have gone to mass and skipped our family camping?? I imagine there are those who would send me to hell forever, but I don’t think is it God.

I cannot comment on your personal culpability as that is not my place. I can say that intentionally missing mass is objectively a grave sin for one who is Catholic. That is not my personal opinion.

My very dear Catholic dad used to say that the main reason we are to attend mass every sunday is to drop the envelop in the basket. (He never missed unless he was very ill, and sometimes went when he shouldn’t have.) Funny, because our envelops say that if we cannot attend mass we should put it in the mail with our offering. HMMMMMMMM!!! Was old daddy right? (Maybe just a tad.)

Perhaps the envelope people assume if you cannot attend your local parish you will still support them, but attend a different parish where you will be that day.

Sorry if I am upsetting anyone if my attitude seems outragous for the very “strict” Catholic. We have to learn which battle to fight and what is truly important in our lives. Mother Theresa is my favorite “saint”. She never tried to convert anyone, she helped them but not by condemning. She most likely missed mass to minister to the sick and dying.

You think Mother Teresa never tried to bring folks into the Catholic Church?

 

[Linnyo]

fix:

You should not accept it because of I say to accept it. You should accept it because the Church says so. I am not claiming any authority I am binding myself to the Church.

What I cannot grasp is why folks would claim to be Catholic, yet reject the authority of the Church? Either the Church is what She says, or the faith is false.

You DON’T have the right to decide whether or not a person is Catholic or not. Thank the Lord cos if it was your decision there would hardly be any catholics.

 

[rlg94086]

Magisterium…not “the Pope”. Unless you can find a quote of the Pope who proclaimed it.

Palamite:

I’m not sure if anybody’s mentioned it, but the whole “Sunday obligation” thing is not a matter of divine decree, but Catholic Church discipline - IOW. it’s the Pope who makes it a “mortal sin”, not the 10 Commandments. The same used to be true of eating flesh meat on all Fridays of the year. Now it’s not.