Open Thread for the Synod on the Family

[Joe_5859]

Very interesting article here. It asserts that Kasper’s proposal is not intrinsically heterodox, but is a bad idea, and has already been defeated.

Do not confuse sacramental discipline and Catholic doctrine

catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=908

This why I’m so confused about how to feel now. Depending on who you listen to, the Kasper proposal is either a certainty to pass, or has already been defeated.

That’s a helpful article. That makes many of the points I have been trying to make over the past several weeks, but he makes them better than I have been able to do.

I try not to give too much credence to the talking heads who are attempting to predict the future about how this will pan out. I doubt it is completely a dead issue (as I saw one commenter predict), but I definitely don’t think that it’s a forgone conclusion that the “Kasper proposal” will pass. If I were a betting man, I would bet against that.

But, as has been said, we don’t need to be afraid of the discussion. I saw another poster make the comparison that even Arius was allowed to speak his piece at the Council of Nicea. And that led to his ideas being condemned and the Catholic faith being articulated with even greater theological precision. I certainly wouldn’t classify Kasper’s proposal as anything close to the Arian heresy. But the best way to move past such an idea is to give it a hearing and articulate the reasons why it is a bad idea.

 

[johnrobertson26]

Of course he is well supported, he is the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God! We have to get it out of our heads that he is some elected official sitting in Washington that we can vote out of office. The bishops understand this, I don’t know if all the faithful do.

You state all of this even when it is obvious that I wasn’t referring to his personal support, but the support of the Synod proposal? Isn’t this disingenuous?

I seriously doubt that. Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.

What leads you to believe that I parrot internet opinions concerning the dangers of Church politics? One merely has to know basic history to see the results of the Great Schism and the Reformation!

Synods may be political, but they are advisory only and what they recommend can and sometimes is, ignored by the Holy Father.

Obviously a Pope wouldn’t ignore a Synod!

The Holy Father, unlike a number in the curia, has lived in the trenches. He has ministered to the poor as well as the middle class. He knows the pains and troubles that lay Catholics have. He has also interacted with world leaders.

I don’t question Pope Francis’s wisdom. I express my opinion that Pope Francis is wrongly trying to promote humanism in the Church when the world has adopted a more authoritarian culture than what it normally has.

I think he understands world culture and the reputation of the Church in the world quite well. Why do you think he is redoing the curia, the Vatican Bank, telling bishops to stop living so ‘high on the hog’ and why he is slamming the book down on clerics who stray from their vow of celibacy?

I agree that he understands world culture, but I think that his humanist ideology has blinded him as to what needs to be done in the Church. I think clerics should be allowed to marry, to alleviate various problems in the Church,

Pope Francis promotes God’s law which includes natural law. He is teaching us to keep our eyes on the Good News of Jesus Christ.

I think that you are being disingenuous again because it is obvious that natural law is part of the teachings of Jesus.

Pope Francis is nothing like a humanist, he’s a Catholic.

Is the Pope not Catholic? Does a chicken have lips? Disingenuous.

Same to you John, relax a bit.

I prefer to keep busy. Don’t worry about me. I sense your veiled ad-hominem attacks.

John

Love and Peace

 

[gilliam]

You state all of this even when it is obvious that I wasn’t referring to his personal support, but the support of the Synod proposal? Isn’t this disingenuous?

John, the Holy Father didn’t show support for any of the proposals. He simply listened and allowed the bishops to talk. The support he showed was for the synod process.

Pax
-g

 

[johnrobertson26]

John, the Holy Father didn’t show support for any of the proposals. He simply listened and allowed the bishops to talk. The support he showed was for the synod process.

Pax
-g

We’ve been listening to Pope Francis’s beliefs for about year, and we know what he wants and believes. “gifts of homosexuality”, “Who am I to judge” Francis has verbally supported those who want liberalization of Church doctrine.

Peace and love,
John

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Eleven Ways the Synod Failed Pope Francis’ Vision.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Somehow, this outcome is not one bit surprising.

In Synod-Related Effort, Homosexual-Rights Activists Target Eight U.S. Bishops

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/in-synod-related-effort-homosexual-rights-activists-target-eight-u.s.-bisho/#ixzz3H5t62sY7

ROME — The start of the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the Family has triggered a wave of activism from well-funded LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered) activist groups in the U.S., who are targeting “outspoken” Catholic bishops in hopes of changing Catholic practice and moral doctrine.

“Most important is the opportunity to create a precedent for change,” the Human Rights Campaign said in its pamphlet on the synod.

The LGBT group has announced an activist effort targeting eight bishops in a pamphlet that labels them as “the best of the worst Catholic bishops across the country.”

Its campaign will target Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, Archbishop John Nienstedt of St. Paul and Minneapolis, Archbishop Dennis Schnurr of Cincinnati, Archbishop Joseph Kurtz of Louisville, Ky., the president of the U.S. bishops’ conference, Archbishop Charles Chaput of Philadelphia, Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore and Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Springfield, Ill.
…

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/in-synod-related-effort-homosexual-rights-activists-target-eight-u.s.-bisho/#ixzz3H0d1tJOV

,

 

[CrossofChrist]

And frankly, as a man of God and a Jesuit, I am not sure the Pope’s administrative, managerial or communication skills are the best - imagine Henry David Thoreau as our President. … This adds to the confusion and paranoia of conservatives. (and will continue to do so)

He clearly doesn’t want to act rashly. Everything the Pope has said has given every indication that he agrees with Catholic teaching. He’s “a son of the Church”.

:tanning:

 

[FollowChrist34]

He clearly doesn’t want to act rashly. Everything the Pope has said has given every indication that he agrees with Catholic teaching. He’s “a son of the Church”.

:tanning:

Well, I think he is open for pastoral changes. And I do believe he was supportive to a certain degree of Cardinal Kasper’s arguments - or at least wanted to give them a prominent hearing - Kasper was given the floor I think for two days at the Synod, in spite of not necessarily having widespread support among the bishops. But, as you say, I believe that Pope Francis is a son of the Church. I remember shortly after he was elected, someone said he would disappoint both extremes - conservatives and liberals. That prediction could turn out to be right. I am more on the conservative side, so of course I would like more defense of doctrine and teaching. But I can’t honestly say that I think the Pope would change any of that.

 

[johnrobertson26]

He clearly doesn’t want to act rashly. Everything the Pope has said has given every indication that he agrees with Catholic teaching. He’s “a son of the Church”.

:tanning:

Pope Francis never seems to commit to anything because he always thinks about balance, fairness and moderation. It’s therefore not surprising that the Synod amounted to nothing. I believe that Francis is trying to moderate the Church by making contentious statements, such as “homosexuals having gifts”, and then never following up on them. He’s bursting their bubbles! He’s sitting on the fence until people beg him to do something, and when he finally does something, they won’t care because they are so tired of trying to promote their agendas.

However, when all is said and done, at the end of the day, I think is very obvious that Pope Francis is going for radical change towards a very liberal Church, all in the name of “moderation”! The Church is being bashed to death with humanism, where nobody can make a move without considering the political/spiritual correctness of their actions. Meanwhile, God’s laws are being rationalized through a sieve of “pastoral care”.

Peace and love,
John

 

[johnrobertson26]

Pope Francis never seems to commit to anything because he always thinks about balance, fairness and moderation. It’s therefore not surprising that the Synod amounted to nothing. I believe that Francis is trying to moderate the Church by making contentious statements, such as “homosexuals having gifts”, and then never following up on them. He’s bursting their bubbles! He’s sitting on the fence until people beg him to do something, and when he finally does something, they won’t care because they are so tired of trying to promote their agendas.

However, when all is said and done, at the end of the day, I think is very obvious that Pope Francis is going for radical change towards a very liberal Church, all in the name of “moderation”! The Church is being bashed to death with humanism, where nobody can make a move without considering the political/spiritual correctness of their actions. Meanwhile, God’s laws are being rationalized through a sieve of “pastoral care”.

Peace and love,
John

I retract the above post because I now know that Pope Francis is entirely supportive of all Church doctrine. It really does seem like he is bursting bubbles though, because he is very intent of quelling emotional and extreme debate. This is understandable, but he really has the conservatives worrying! I just worry about the Church. Sorry. I still love Pappa the Holy Father!

 

[sttcatherinefan]

What frustrates and confuses me about this situation is that so many people seem against finding some solution to this problem. Seriously, just put annulment in the search button in this forum and you will get threads, many of them heated, about people very angry and hurt by the current process. I think that many of us at least know friends, family, and acquaintances hurt by the current process. You may have been hurt by the process yourself. I think that the annulment process is one of the greatest tools in turning people into Protestants. I know no one who has successfully received an annulment; some have contemplated it but have not followed through with it. And yes I get the “elder brother” situation where those who have been through the pain and heartache don’t want people to get an easy pass. Understandable and human, but don’t you want others to not go through the pain you did?

From what I understand of the Orthodox situation, it really sounds pretty good. This is only for second and third marriages so serial monogamy is out. There is a time of extensive spiritual direction with the priest prior to the actual decree. People are treated differently. So an abuse victim is treated differently from his or her abuser. This really sounds holistic and not that bad.

 

[Elizium23]

What frustrates and confuses me about this situation is that so many people seem against finding some solution to this problem. Seriously, just put annulment in the search button in this forum and you will get threads, many of them heated, about people very angry and hurt by the current process. I think that many of us at least know friends, family, and acquaintances hurt by the current process. You may have been hurt by the process yourself. I think that the annulment process is one of the greatest tools in turning people into Protestants. I know no one who has successfully received an annulment; some have contemplated it but have not followed through with it. And yes I get the “elder brother” situation where those who have been through the pain and heartache don’t want people to get an easy pass. Understandable and human, but don’t you want others to not go through the pain you did?

From what I understand of the Orthodox situation, it really sounds pretty good. This is only for second and third marriages so serial monogamy is out. There is a time of extensive spiritual direction with the priest prior to the actual decree. People are treated differently. So an abuse victim is treated differently from his or her abuser. This really sounds holistic and not that bad.

Friends, family and acquaintances, hurt by a process that delves deep into the root causes of a failed relationship? Imagine that!

I believe that many people may feel hurt initially by a nullity case but the vast majority find it to be the first step on the road toward healing and wholeness. Hindsight is 20/20, and someone who has been through a nullity case is far more likely to understand marriage better than ever before, and be protected from making the same mistakes twice.

The Orthodox “solution” is a failure, a contradiction of Jesus’ own words. I suggest that you read Remaining in the Truth of Christ. This book was written by five Cardinals of the Church, and edited by Rev. Robert Dodaro, OSA. It effectively and soundly refutes the belief in the Orthodox discipline and it presents a compelling case for harmonizing fidelity and mercy.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

When Bl Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae several priests refused to support it. Their bishop suspended them. They appealed to Rome and were reinstated. Bishops were instructed to use a Pastoral rather than Judgmental approach in these matters Counseling and helping people to change was the order of the day.

Now everyone is upset because bishops used the same approach with priests accused of abusing minors. Strict Judgement was the correct approach.

Changing gears again we are now going to use Gradualism with the divorced and remarried etc.

 

[McCall1981]

When Bl Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae several priests refused to support it. Their bishop suspended them. They appealed to Rome and were reinstated. Bishops were instructed to use a Pastoral rather than Judgmental approach in these matters Counseling and helping people to change was the order of the day.

Now everyone is upset because bishops used the same approach with priests accused of abusing minors. Strict Judgement was the correct approach.

Changing gears again we are now going to use Gradualism with the divorced and remarried etc.

The suggestion of “gradualism” that appeared in the Synod’s half-way document was removed, and apparently doesn’t appear in the final doc at all.

 

[anthonymarie]

What really bothers me with the discussions surrounding the synod is that, with no disrespect meant to anybody by the association, this is the same approach that has been used to legalize abortion and euthanasia all around the world:

1. A sensitive topic is raised for discussion and a proposal put forward. A discussion/debate is had and those who oppose the certain change win the day.
2. The same sensitive topic is raised for discussion again and the same proposal put forward. A discussion/debate is had again and those who oppose the certain change are confronted with fudged answers to their still valid objections. They still win the day but this time they are accused of being insensitive because they are still (believe it or not) saying the same thing (weird that).
3. The same sensitive topic is raised for discussion yet again and exactly the same proposal put forward yet again. This time the proponents state that now they have been very patient and produced fudged answers to all the objections so they must be given their way and anyone who still stands by what they have always stood by is just insensitive.

Modern movements (it seems now, even within the Church) don’t bother employing reason. They just sort of beat you down with a battering ram.

The best argument against democracy is . . .

Winston Churchill

 

[mlz]

BY THE NUMBERS:

Pope Francis is expected to attend all of the working sessions, along with 253 other people.

By the numbers:

– 191 voting members are expected: 162 attending because of the office they hold (114 presidents of bishops’ conferences, 25 heads of Vatican offices, 13 heads of Eastern Catholic churches, and 10 members of the synod council); three elected by the men’s Union of Superiors General; and 26 named by Pope Francis.

– Of the 191, 42 come from Africa, 38 from the Americas, 29 from Asia, 78 from Europe and four from Oceania and the South Pacific. The voting members include 61 Latin-rite cardinals, one Eastern-rite cardinal, seven Eastern patriarchs, 67 archbishops, 47 bishops, one auxiliary bishop and seven priests.

– The synod members will be assisted by 16 synod staff members and appointed experts (also referred to as collaborators), including one married couple. Members also will hear from and work in small groups with 38 observers (auditors), including 12 married couples.

– In addition, eight other Christian churches and communities will send delegates as a sign of their shared concern for the pastoral care of families today.

cnsblog.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/the-synod-by-the-numbers/

What it might look like:

http://cnsblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/synod2012.jpg?w=600&h=390
Participants in the 2012 Synod of Bishops in the Vatican synod hall with Pope Benedict XVI. (CNS/Paul Haring)

The Holy See Press Office is tweeting (following on Twitter) the synod, here: twitter.com/HolySeePress You may have to right click and select translate page.

One of the videos shown in the square http: // www. youtube.com/watch?v=g77Bmj LF8N4 … … Pope Francis : Marriage is daily work

You mentioned 8 other Christian groups sending delegates??? Catholic or other Christian eclesiastical communities??? I’m confused about this…as am I about all that has proceeded and this is why I am wary and very cautious…confusion is never a sign of the working of the Holy Spirit, but of the evil one…so I am praying, praying, praying…
mlz

 

[mlz]

Here is a translation of an interview that the Pope gave yesterday with the Argentinian newspaper La Nacion (sorry, I don’t have a link). The translation is a bit awkward, but you get the gist of it. IMO, it is very frightening:

What does the Pope expect of the Synod that is opening? Before anything else, it should
be noted that the Synod is a meeting of all the world’s bishops which has a consultative
character, and that its principal work is that of advising the Pope about a predetermined
topic.

In Rome, there are now around 200 cardinals and bishops from all the world to deal with
the topic of the family. “Do not expect a definition by next week,” the Pope says to me,
ironically. “This will be a big synod that will probably last a year. Now I only give
the initial push,” he adds.

Does the book critical to his positions bother him, that just was made known to have been
signed by five cardinals, one very prominent? “No,” he answers. “Everyone has something to
contribute. To me, it even gives pleasure to discuss it with the very conservative but
intellectually well-formed bishops.”

The Pope has dropped the reins of the Synod. “I was a relator of the synod of 2001, and
I had a cardinal who decided for us what had to be dealt with and what not. This won’t
happen now. Until I gave the bishops the faculty that I had, to elect the presidents
of the commissions. They will elect them, as they elect the secretaries and the relators.”

“Of course,” he notes, “that is the synodal practice that I like. How they all can say
their business with total liberty. Liberty is always very important. The
governing of the Church is another thing. That is in my hands, after the corresponding
consultations,” he underlines. Francis is a good pope, but not a pope that other people
will govern. That is very clear in his notion of political or religious conduct.

What does it matter what happens as the conclusion of the synod?

“The family is such a valuable topic, so dear to society and to the Church!” he says, and
adds, “Much emphasis has been put on the topic of divorced people. An aspect that will
be debated, without a doubt. But for me, another very important problem is the new
real customs of the youth. Youth are not getting married. It is a culture of the
age. Many young people prefer to live together without marrying. What must the Church
do? Expel them from her bosom? Or instead approach them, hold onto them, and try to
bring them the Word of God? I am with this last position,” he points out.

Yes, a concern and why we must all be praying and fasting.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus,
mlz

 

[mlz]

The suggestion of “gradualism” that appeared in the Synod’s half-way document was removed, and apparently doesn’t appear in the final doc at all.

“Gradualism” is removed??? Really…I hope so. I am a convert from the ELCA Lutheran Church before becoming Catholic and I can assure you the devil used a “gradual” approach to take down the ELCA by slowly allowing little by little acceptance of sin as loving acceptance of others to come forth…now the ELCA accepts active (not celebate…although this was first accepted as a “gradual” transition) gay pastors to shepherd their flocks. The evil one works in this way and is attacking the Catholic Church. Do NOT be decieved!!! “Gradualism” is a way that we are to slowly get use to the sin and accept it as a “loving” way of accepting others…this is a LIE from the pit of HELL!!!
mlz

 

[Lion_IRC]

What really bothers me with the discussions surrounding the synod is that, with no disrespect meant to anybody by the association, this is the same approach that has been used to legalize abortion and euthanasia all around the world:

1. A sensitive topic is raised for discussion and a proposal put forward. A discussion/debate is had and those who oppose the certain change win the day.
2. The same sensitive topic is raised for discussion again and the same proposal put forward. A discussion/debate is had again and those who oppose the certain change are confronted with fudged answers to their still valid objections. They still win the day but this time they are accused of being insensitive because they are still (believe it or not) saying the same thing (weird that).
3. The same sensitive topic is raised for discussion yet again and exactly the same proposal put forward yet again. This time the proponents state that now they have been very patient and produced fudged answers to all the objections so they must be given their way and anyone who still stands by what they have always stood by is just insensitive…

This sounds quite familiar and has the ‘ring of truth’ .

Keep asking the same question and getting the same answer from the same people for the same reason…and the only thing new is the warning not to be inflexible or insensitive and how mercy matters more than truth, etc, etc.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Friends, family and acquaintances, hurt by a process that delves deep into the root causes of a failed relationship? Imagine that!

I believe that many people may feel hurt initially by a nullity case but the vast majority find it to be the first step on the road toward healing and wholeness. Hindsight is 20/20, and someone who has been through a nullity case is far more likely to understand marriage better than ever before, and be protected from making the same mistakes twice.

The Orthodox “solution” is a failure, a contradiction of Jesus’ own words. I suggest that you read Remaining in the Truth of Christ. This book was written by five Cardinals of the Church, and edited by Rev. Robert Dodaro, OSA. It effectively and soundly refutes the belief in the Orthodox discipline and it presents a compelling case for harmonizing fidelity and mercy.

Confront the root cause of their relationship? Like discussing it in spiritual direction for months with your pastor which is the Orthodox solution? That is what a penitential path is. And the issue is that most people drop out of the annulment process or take one look at it or don’t start it.

What we are really talking about here is the fact that some marriages fail and the Catholic Church doesn’t want to punish people, especially people who are innocent victims, for the rest of their lives. What is the best way to go about doing this? I think that the current overly legalistic process is like rubbing salt in people’s wounds. I don’t think that it heals their wounds.