Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[seekerz]

Just a question, has anyone heard what Mr. Martin was doing in that neighborhood? Did it ever come out in the trial?

He was spending time with his Dad and stepmom and was returning from a convenience store.

 

[LisaA]

By being black and having been mainly raised outside the country.

Trust me, it comes as quite a shock. Always took that “content of their character” thing pretty seriously, and grew up believing that most Americans did too. I still think that most of us believe it, it’s the ones who don’t that cause the problem.

But I hope you admit that this goes both ways. There are also blacks who are prejudiced against whites, simply because they are white, not because they have done anything to raise the black person’s hackles. There are whites who are prejudiced against Hispanics and Asians can be very isolationist as well.

That being said, I appreciated that President Obama spoke on the subject of helping us understand why, despite his admission that the law supported the verdict, the evidence supported the verdict, the jury was diligent in their efforts and the instructions given to the jury correct, there were still many, particularly in the black community who could not accept the verdict. That is the kind of explanation that I think can only come from the inside. For example I was outraged by the OJ decision but not because of race but because I thought the creep was 200% guilty. However there were many blacks who may have believed OJ personally guilty but that “justice” was served by letting him go as payback to the ills perpetuated upon blacks by whites in history. I don’t get it but again I’m not black. It does help to hear that no matter how valid the decision seems from a legal point of view, if you are black, it’s a harder nut to crack.

The rest of Obama’s comments I think were not particularly helpful but I give him credit for trying to help us understand the reaction.

Lisa

 

[seekerz]

Actually, this is not objective 3rd person evidence as we can not confirm statements made by someone, “I’m a doctor”, “I’m a Police Officer” etc. I believe this is even stated in the rules here, I can say “I’m a CPA”, etc. but since I could use such to claim an expertise on say Tax Law, in the end, it is still just my word since Accountants disagree with each other as Doctors and Lawyers do. It’s a bit of an appeal to authority.

There is nothing “objective” about being profiled. That’s what makes it so easy to do, to deny and to defend.

What’s so “objective” about West’s opinion?

 

[BroomWagon]

As to your specific quote, I take issue with Mr West suggesting that those who are profiled are lacking in respect. That is disrespectful to those of us who are indeed aware of the experience of being profiled. My 5 yr old once sat down at a restaurant and a granny immediately moved her bag to the side of the seat opposite him despite the presence of a barrier that could prevent any childish inquisitiveness. He was well-dressed, well-groomed and had not yet spoken a word or done anything by which his character (as much as a 5 yr old can have ) might be judged, yet she took one look at him (I was otherwise occupied and had not yet approached the table) and moved her bag.

Though it is only my own personal statement and first-hand experience which can not be verified on a forum, I would submit, I as a male and white and young have walked by a woman’s car for her to lock it when I go by. I don’t draw any excessive meaning from that or figure that this is a reflection on all white males or all white males my age. I’m sure I could find more examples. Have I ever walked out of somewhere and seen a woman run to her parked car?? Though I could not tie it to being because I walked out at around the same time, I could make such a conclusion as well. I didn’t think it was worth worrying about. Have I ever noted someone walk a certain way to avoid me? Yes, I have that as well.

In fact, some of these situations above trouble me. Thus, I often try to avoid situations where such could arise.

 

[pete_29]

As to your specific quote, I take issue with Mr West suggesting that those who are profiled are lacking in respect. That is disrespectful to those of us who are indeed aware of the experience of being profiled. My 5 yr old once sat down at a restaurant and a granny immediately moved her bag to the side of the seat opposite him despite the presence of a barrier that could prevent any childish inquisitiveness. He was well-dressed, well-groomed and had not yet spoken a word or done anything by which his character (as much as a 5 yr old can have ) might be judged, yet she took one look at him (I was otherwise occupied and had not yet approached the table) and moved her bag.

I would be very surprised that every person in this forum hasn’t been profiled at some point in their lives.

 

[seekerz]

But I hope you admit that this goes both ways. There are also blacks who are prejudiced against whites, simply because they are white, not because they have done anything to raise the black person’s hackles. There are whites who are prejudiced against Hispanics and Asians can be very isolationist as well.

That being said, I appreciated that President Obama spoke on the subject of helping us understand why, despite his admission that the law supported the verdict, the evidence supported the verdict, the jury was diligent in their efforts and the instructions given to the jury correct, there were still many, particularly in the black community who could not accept the verdict. That is the kind of explanation that I think can only come from the inside. For example I was outraged by the OJ decision but not because of race but because I thought the creep was 200% guilty. However there were many blacks who may have believed OJ personally guilty but that “justice” was served by letting him go as payback to the ills perpetuated upon blacks by whites in history. I don’t get it but again I’m not black. It does help to hear that no matter how valid the decision seems from a legal point of view, if you are black, it’s a harder nut to crack.

The rest of Obama’s comments I think were not particularly helpful but I give him credit for trying to help us understand the reaction.

Lisa

Lisa, thank you for your measured response. I’ve been saying on this forum for years, that anyone of any race, can exhibit racial prejudice - even black people - against their own or other races. I’ve seen it myself. That does not justify/excuse racial prejudice in any direction.

I disagree with you about the verdict because self-defense can only apply if the jury believes the defendant’s story - and I couldn’t see how they believed Zimmerman’s story simply based on his own inconsistencies (which seem to stem from the natural human tendency to CYA). I believe reasonable doubt is a much misunderstood concept.

However I can discuss the topic reasonably and respectfully even with those I disagree with. Thanks again.

 

[twoshoes]

It has been my observation through many presisents that when they are losing an argument(Illegal immigration) They change the narrative to something else(Zimmerman). Rhamm said don’t let a good argument go by with out using it. Doesn’t matter to all the race baiters out there, Jackson.Sharpton Obama,Holder, or Ted Nuggent. Talk about a divided country, Obama has divided this country more than than it has been for 30 years. Great going all you politicans, just what we elected you for.

 

[twoshoes]

He was spending time with his Dad and stepmom and was returning from a convenience store.

Was this developement a shortcut for him, or his usual way home.

 

[LisaA]

As to your specific quote, I take issue with Mr West suggesting that those who are profiled are lacking in respect. That is disrespectful to those of us who are indeed aware of the experience of being profiled. My 5 yr old once sat down at a restaurant and a granny immediately moved her bag to the side of the seat opposite him despite the presence of a barrier that could prevent any childish inquisitiveness. He was well-dressed, well-groomed and had not yet spoken a word or done anything by which his character (as much as a 5 yr old can have ) might be judged, yet she took one look at him (I was otherwise occupied and had not yet approached the table) and moved her bag.

seekerz in all fairness, the term “granny” might be a clue. People of past generations were raised differently and these prejudices were so ingrained they are hard to shake. Even Obama said his white grandmother was suspicious of blacks. My grandmother who was absolutely not a bigot, persisted in the use of the word “colored” or “Negro.” I kept telling her no one used this anymore but she was not able to get out of the habit. She said she thought “colored” WAS respectful and hey remember the NAACP is National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Maybe give a pass to granny…she probably learned some unfortunate stereotypes.

That being said, my priest said the most heartbreaking experience of HIS life was being in an airport, wearing his collar and having a young mom point to him and LOUDLY tell her small boys “stay away from anyone dressed like that…”

 

[seekerz]

I would be very surprised that every person in this forum hasn’t been profiled at some point in their lives.

You are correct. However, being a young black male has little to do with the occasional (“some point in their lives”) profiling experience. It’s more about having to prove to people constantly/repeatedly that you are not all the negative things that they expect.

 

[meltzerboy]

“I am a black male who grew up in the inner city of Atlanta and no one ever followed me in a mall. I don’t recall any doors clicking when I crossed the street. And I never had anyone clutching their handbag when I got on an elevator. I guess having two awesome parents who taught me to be a respectful young man paid dividends.” – Allen West

I think Colonel West makes a good point. There will always be some bigotry based on being “other” than yourself. I had a friend who married a Chinese woman and her family was horrified and basically tossed her out of the family. Ditto with a Greek friend who married a non-Greek (although they came around when the grandkids arrived). So we have some tribal characteristics as well as a history of biogrty against certain racial groups. FWIW on the west coast we have a serious anti-Asian history rather than anti-black. But again we were no where near slavery, the Civil War and other historical manifestations of anti-black prejudice.

That being said, Colonel West’s comments comport with the reported “profiling” of Martin in that he profiled behavior rather than skin color. I still maintain that had Martin been walking down the street with a grocery sack in hand, on the regular sidewalk, and appearing to have somewhere to go, he would not have drawn Zimmerman’s attention simply because he was black. Even someone like Jesse Jackson has admitted he would feel less fear being followed by a group of white boys than a group of black boys but what I think he should have clarified is the respective behavior. There is a culture among both blacks and whites of sort of anti-social, aggressive appearance and behavior. If I saw a group of black youth wearing basketball shorts and Hyperdunks, carrying a basketball, I wouldn’t have the slightest concern even if they were loud and rowdy. If a saw a group of white youth with tats and piercings and ratty hair, sloppy dress and potty mouths being loud and rowdy, well I WOULD and HAVE locked my door or moved to the other side of the street.

Unfortunately there is a subculture, pushed by music and personalities where black youth take on this sort of gangsta persona. While it doesn’t mean they have violent tendencies, the look they take on is scary. Black youth who appear to be polite, respectful of others, and don’t have their underwear sticking out or shoes untied, evoke a very different response.

It’s NOT all about race.

Lisa

I know, Lisa, based on several of your comments, that you “judge” more on appearance with regard to clothing, hairstyle, tattoos, etc. than race, and I think many people do. However, for many middle-aged Whites, the gangsta image of a young Black male seems more frightening to them than the same gangsta image of a young White male. That may, in part, be based on the lack of familiarity with Black male youth on the part of some Whites and, in part, on exaggerated media hype. (I’ve learned that when in doubt, it’s usually a safe bet to blame the media for everything.) There is also the reality that young Black males disproportionately commit more crimes, particularly in urban centers. I think one of the issues is not realizing that the “scary” appearance of some young Black males is often not a very good indicator regarding their behavior. If one lives in a city like New York and has more daily contact with people of many races, not just Black and White, one begins to learn that clothes don’t make the man (or woman). As a college teacher, I work with quite an assortment of students of every conceivable race and physical appearance, and I’ve learned that appearances can be very deceiving.

 

[rlg94086]

Your son was brought home - by the police? Where would the basis for racial victimization be?

I realize for some people this is difficult to follow. I will try to break it down for you.

Others have posted that Zimmerman had no reason to be suspicious of Trayvon Martin and couldn’t have known whether he was a thug or an angel.

By the same reasoning, the undercover officer had no reason to be suspicious of my son and couldn’t have known whether he was a thug or an angel.

My son was brought home by the police because he didn’t decide to confront and attack an armed officer. I’m thankful he didn’t. If it was racial profiling, it was racial profiling, regardless of the end result. Had Trayvon Martin not decided to confront/attack the “creepy *** cracka,” he may be alive today.

 

[LisaA]

Was this developement a shortcut for him, or his usual way home.

His dad lived in the development. He was apparently walking on a path that ran between the homes rather than the main sidewalk and according to Zimmerman’s call was “looking around” not seeming to have anywhere specific to go. That unfortunate action which I suspect was a teenager on a cell phone not a would be burglar, set in motion a most tragic set of events.

Lisa

PS search my posts and you will find a map that shows both men’s movements that night. You can see where Martin was walking and where he encountered Zimmerman

 

[Nimzovik]

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Well said.

 

[rlg94086]

As to your specific quote, I take issue with Mr West suggesting that those who are profiled are lacking in respect. That is disrespectful to those of us who are indeed aware of the experience of being profiled. My 5 yr old once sat down at a restaurant and a granny immediately moved her bag to the side of the seat opposite him despite the presence of a barrier that could prevent any childish inquisitiveness. He was well-dressed, well-groomed and had not yet spoken a word or done anything by which his character (as much as a 5 yr old can have ) might be judged, yet she took one look at him (I was otherwise occupied and had not yet approached the table) and moved her bag.

And, you know it was because of his skin color? Wow. You must be psychic…or hyper-sensitive…

 

[seekerz]

seekerz in all fairness, the term “granny” might be a clue. People of past generations were raised differently and these prejudices were so ingrained they are hard to shake. Even Obama said his white grandmother was suspicious of blacks. My grandmother who was absolutely not a bigot, persisted in the use of the word “colored” or “Negro.” I kept telling her no one used this anymore but she was not able to get out of the habit. She said she thought “colored” WAS respectful and hey remember the NAACP is National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Maybe give a pass to granny…she probably learned some unfortunate stereotypes.

That being said, my priest said the most heartbreaking experience of HIS life was being in an airport, wearing his collar and having a young mom point to him and LOUDLY tell her small boys “stay away from anyone dressed like that…”

That’s the thing though, Lisa. The defenders of Zimmerman (I forget the friend’s name who was always on TV) have shown from the very beginning that they feel he was JUSTIFIED in being suspicious of Trayvon given the break-ins. BTW, I may have missed it, but I never did hear in the trial where it was confirmed that there had been a series of break-ins by young black males - I just heard it repeated again and again as justification for what Zimmerman did.

Now, tell me, would you feel outraged if the priest incident was repeated/constant throughout the country, or if a priest got hurt in one of the incidents and the jury agreed that the offender was justified in the fears that led to his actions?

 

[seekerz]

And, you know it was because of his skin color? Wow. You must be psychic…or hyper-sensitive…

You’re right - it must be my notorious fashion sense!

 

[rlg94086]

That’s the thing though, Lisa. The defenders of Zimmerman (I forget the friend’s name who was always on TV) have shown from the very beginning that they feel he was JUSTIFIED in being suspicious of Trayvon given the break-ins. BTW, I may have missed it, but I never did hear in the trial where it was confirmed that there had been a series of break-ins by young black males - I just heard it repeated again and again as justification for what Zimmerman did.

Now, tell me, would you feel outraged if the priest incident was repeated/constant throughout the country, or if a priest got hurt in one of the incidents and the jury agreed that the offender was justified in the fears that led to his actions?

So, do you think that Trayvon Martin was justified in his fear of the “creepy *** cracka” that led to his actions of confronting/attacking him?

 

[Nimzovik]

seekerz in all fairness, the term “granny” might be a clue. People of past generations were raised differently and these prejudices were so ingrained they are hard to shake. Even Obama said his white grandmother was suspicious of blacks. My grandmother who was absolutely not a bigot, persisted in the use of the word “colored” or “Negro.” I kept telling her no one used this anymore but she was not able to get out of the habit. She said she thought “colored” WAS respectful and hey remember the NAACP is National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Maybe give a pass to granny…she probably learned some unfortunate stereotypes.

That being said, my priest said the most heartbreaking experience of HIS life was being in an airport, wearing his collar and having a young mom point to him and LOUDLY tell her small boys “stay away from anyone dressed like that…”

Indeed.

The press has an undeniable ability to shape Public Opinion. This can be very dangerous. It is noteworthy, as you have pointed out, the example of the Priest and the mother with the little boy. The Liberal Media does indeed support the Liberal Agenda, in this case, the Democrat’s ‘War on Religion.’ via inundating the public with ‘Sex Scandals’ in the Holy Mother Church, that are in fact, no where near the frequency of sex scandals of Politicians or the secular society or the Public Educational System.

That said, it is also noteworthy to observe how the media is now also cranking up the Liberal ‘War on Caucasians’ and their classic race baiting to cause contention and to assure no Caucasian will be able to run for President next election.

Pretty obvious, isn’t it?

 

[seekerz]

I realize for some people this is difficult to follow. I will try to break it down for you.

Others have posted that Zimmerman had no reason to be suspicious of Trayvon Martin and couldn’t have known whether he was a thug or an angel.

By the same reasoning, the undercover officer had no reason to be suspicious of my son and couldn’t have known whether he was a thug or an angel.

My son was brought home by the police because he didn’t decide to confront and attack an armed officer. I’m thankful he didn’t. If it was racial profiling, it was racial profiling, regardless of the end result. Had Trayvon Martin not decided to confront/attack the “creepy *** cracka,” he may be alive today.

Yeah, Trayvon caused his own death by not being respectful enough to a stranger following him in the dark, because we KNOW that Zimmerman was telling the truth about who threw the first punch. Just so he knows, there is no double jeopardy with God, so he better be telling the truth - at least to himself.