Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[MaryT777]

I never debated the fact. I questioned the relevance and stated that personal expectations of what he should know have no bearing on that…

I think if someone kills someone it is relevant they have a bad memory. If the Neighborhood Watch program was aware of that and the fact he had a bad memory, can’t define the street in as 3 street neighborhood they may have chosen not to have him on Watch at least not as captain.

Thus the HOA had to settle the wrongful death suit for the implied endorsement of GZ in a newsletter. I doubt they would have endorsed him if they were aware of his bad memory.,
can’t recall street names, prior violence, propensity to stalk people around including a past girlfriend etc.

That he was rejected by the police just asserts he may have wanted to be a police officer so much he acted as one when he was not one whatsoever. I also think given his past
run ins with the law and assault that were reduced he had an attitude he can do what he wants to. That is admittedly personal opinion.

Now he can’t for public opinion is not fond of him and I don’t agree it’s the media.
I don’t believe he’s a responsible citizen gun or not.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Again Mary,

The HOA didn’t have to settle anything. The insurance company made a business decision to settle the suit. The cost of settling vs the cost of fighting it. It had nothing to do with right and wrong, or an admission of right or wrong. Insurance companies have the call on how to settle, not the HOA. (same as your car insurance). And they often choose to settle not based on the facts, but simply how much the man-hours, lawyers, travel expenses, experts, fees, etc. will cost to fight it vs settle now.

I expect that the settlement itself specificies that it is not an admission of any wrongdoing on the part of the HOA.

 

[BroomWagon]

Well, except all of his statements and re-enactment were made to police officers knowing they could be used against him in court. And lying to police officers is in fact a crime. Additionally, he submitted to two lie-detector tests (voice stress analyzer) administered by the police which he passed.

The local DA opted not to charge Zimmerman for the very simple reason that all evidence supported his story with nothing to contradict it. This prosecution was politically motivated, as is the perjury charge agaist his wife. The affidavit is just as weak as the one against GZ.

Voice stress analysis:

The technique’s accuracy remains debated. There are no independent research studies that support the use of VSA as a reliable lie detection technology, whilst there are numerous studies that dispute its reliability.[2][3]

In civil court testimony, the CVSA founder, Mr. Charles Humble, testified that “NITV acknowledges that the CVSA is not capable of lie detection and specifically cautions its users regarding proper use of the device.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_stress_analysis

Words like Zimmerman said that are great aid to George Zimmerman for a self-defense case as Zimmerman alleges in saying Trayvon Martin said “Tonight you are going to die” are hard to believe in.

I agree, the evidence is not there to convict Zimmerman however, I think his conduct is highly questionable.

 

[adrift]

I think if someone kills someone it is relevant they have a bad memory. If the Neighborhood Watch program was aware of that and the fact he had a bad memory, can’t define the street in as 3 street neighborhood they may have chosen not to have him on Watch at least not as captain.

Thus the HOA had to settle the wrongful death suit for the implied endorsement of GZ in a newsletter. I doubt they would have endorsed him if they were aware of his bad memory.,
can’t recall street names, prior violence, propensity to stalk people around including a past girlfriend etc.

Again it has to be stated to you that they did not have to settle. Where is your evidence that he “stalked” people around. His girlfriend made that claim in an interview which had no supporting evidence.

That he was rejected by the police just asserts he may have wanted to be a police officer so much he acted as one when he was not one whatsoever. I also think given his past
run ins with the law and assault that were reduced he had an attitude he can do what he wants to. That is admittedly personal opinion.

With his recent helping of people a more reasonable assumption is that he just wants to help that he cares about his fellow man.

Now he can’t for public opinion is not fond of him and I don’t agree it’s the media.
I don’t believe he’s a responsible citizen gun or not.

Your personal opinion again. Public opinion is divided in my opinion between those who base it on facts as the jury did and those who base it on emotion and ignoring the facts.

 

[BroomWagon]

Again Mary,

The HOA didn’t have to settle anything. The insurance company made a business decision to settle the suit. The cost of settling vs the cost of fighting it. It had nothing to do with right and wrong, or an admission of right or wrong. Insurance companies have the call on how to settle, not the HOA. (same as your car insurance). And they often choose to settle not based on the facts, but simply how much the man-hours, lawyers, travel expenses, experts, fees, etc. will cost to fight it vs settle now.

I expect that the settlement itself specificies that it is not an admission of any wrongdoing on the part of the HOA.

But the settlement is for more than $1 million dollars and I’ve heard figures that it is actually for quite a bit more.

articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-04-15/news/os-trayvon-hoa-settlement-crump-argument-20130415_1_sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump

 

[BroomWagon]

Again it has to be stated to you that they did not have to settle. Where is your evidence that he “stalked” people around. His girlfriend made that claim in an interview which had no supporting evidence.

With his recent helping of people a more reasonable assumption is that he just wants to help that he cares about his fellow man.

Your personal opinion again. Public opinion is divided in my opinion between those who base it on facts as the jury did and those who base it on emotion and ignoring the facts.

Or per your last assertion, a lack of facts, we basically only have Zimmerman’s unsworn testimony and little eyewitness evidence.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Voice stress analysis:

Words like Zimmerman said that are great aid to George Zimmerman for a self-defense case as Zimmerman alleges in saying Trayvon Martin said “Tonight you are going to die” are hard to believe in.

I agree, the evidence is not there to convict Zimmerman however, I think his conduct is highly questionable.

I agree that VSA’s and traditional lie detectors are complet hokum. www.anti-polygraph.org. I would advise anyone to never, ever, ever submit to one in a legal matter. Which is why the results can’t normally be submitted to a court. However, since you pointed out his statements weren’t under oath and therefore suspect, I do think it worth noting that he had no problem in submitting to the VSAs. Which may be indicative of his sincere belief in his statements (unless you suspect he was aware of not just the dubiousness of the VSA, but his ability to defeat it and deceive the interrogator). The interrogator being the far more important part of the process than the machine. Which in reality, is just a prop the interrogator uses to convince the subject the machine can in fact detect deception.

 

[MaryT777]

Obviously, some folks want absolute detail, absolute clarity, all the answers on exactly what happened every minute the night that Martin was killed. That is unreasonable and it is also impossible on this side of life. We will never know.

Again, I think we need to accept the verdict. I think we should pray for the Martin family to find comfort and peace and healing. I think we should pray for the Zimmerman family too. Lastly, I also think we should pray for our American family. I hope we can heal after the damage done due to this case, the media’s divisive handling of this case. I really do.

Pray for all of us.

No one has posted any such thing regarding they want absolute detail, absolute clarity etc. Of course it’s unreasonable. It’s also reasonable to believe a man facing second degree murder and manslaughter would say anything to save his life from prison. It happens all the time. He DID know the self defense laws albeit he lied and said he did not.
He knew exactly how they worked and thus in my opinion what to say to save himself from a charge.

That one is sad TM is not here to give his testimony is not refusing to accept the verdict.
No one is required really to accept any verdict albeit they are obliged to follow laws in society.

I haven’t read one Post of anyone stating they will not accept the verdict and the implied then take the law into their own hands on this forum. That some people disagree with the verdict is their right as we have free speech as well.

I believe a lot of good has come from this case actually. We learn the limits of Neighborhood watch. We learn if we plea a felony to lesser charges like alcohol awareness program requirements a person as such could be carrying a concealed weapon.

I’m happy to join you in prayer; mine being something like this NEVER happen again.
Once was one too many.

 

[adrift]

But the settlement is for more than $1 million dollars and I’ve heard figures that it is actually for quite a bit more.

articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-04-15/news/os-trayvon-hoa-settlement-crump-argument-20130415_1_sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump

Do you know how much it would have cost to defend against it. Look at the irrational feeling expressed here. Get a jury with like feelings and the award could be much higher. It is better to settle than risk it.
The settlement is actually undisclosed and the amount mentioned is pure speculation.

“It is understood and agreed that the payment made herein is not to be construed as an admission of any liability by or on behalf of the releasing parties; but instead the monies being paid hereunder is consideration for avoiding litigation, the uncertainties stemming from litigation as well as to protect and secure the good name and good will of the released parties,” the settlement said.

Read more: nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-death-civil-case-housing-complex-settled-1-million-article-1.1308943#ixzz2a4yrjVy2

 

[lcburgundy]

Thus the HOA had to settle the wrongful death suit for the implied endorsement of GZ in a newsletter. I doubt they would have endorsed him if they were aware of his bad memory.,
can’t recall street names, prior violence, propensity to stalk people around including a past girlfriend etc.

Once again, civil lawsuits are frequently settled for simple reasons of cost. The HOA, and certainly not GZ, had no say in the matter, as it would have been handled by an insurer. I think any reasonable person would not use that to infer guilt or fault. If you ever have a personal liability incident handled by an insurer, you will not be consulted as to legal strategy.

That he was rejected by the police just asserts he may have wanted to be a police officer so much he acted as one when he was not one whatsoever. I also think given his past
run ins with the law and assault that were reduced he had an attitude he can do what he wants to. That is admittedly personal opinion.

I don’t believe he’s a responsible citizen gun or not.

Who cares? His rights and his right to self defense in particular aren’t subject to your approval anyway. Put a sign on your car and wear a vest that says “GZ I don’t want your help even if I’m trapped in a crashed vehicle or burning building” and move on with your life.

 

[BroomWagon]

Do you know how much it would have cost to defend against it. Look at the irrational feeling expressed here. Get a jury with like feelings and the award could be much higher. It is better to settle than risk it.

“Irrational feeling expressed here”, casting dispersions that others are illogically looking at this while others could say the same for the pro-Zimmerman side.

 

[lcburgundy]

We learn if we plea a felony to lesser charges like alcohol awareness program requirements a person as such could be carrying a concealed weapon.

If everyone thought everyone else was carrying a concealed weapon, we would undoubtedly have a more peaceful society.

I’m happy to join you in prayer; mine being something like this NEVER happen again.
Once was one too many.

Do yourself a favor and don’t look at news out of places like Chicago then. Black male teens on down to black babies are mowed down every weekend there, but somehow there are no threads and no national conversation about that.

 

[BroomWagon]

Evidence was lacking to convict Zimmerman.

The defense simply argued that Zimmerman’s version of events and likewise, the “4 minutes of silence” of the Prosecution’s case amounted to their being “reasonable doubt” Zimmerman committed murder, the

The defense stressed the important of the “reasonable doubt” standard, noting that even if the jury thought it was “highly unlikely” that Zimmerman acted in self-defense, that was not enough to convict him.

breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/07/12/Zimmerman-Trial-The-Sound-of-Silence

I think all the same, some seem to see the Jury’s verdict as a finding of truth on George Zimmerman’s self-defense case whereas by law, it may have cast “reasonable doubt” on the case for murder per Zimmerman’s use of “self-defense”, as Zimmerman’s attorney said, thinking it was “highly unlikely” Zimmerman acted in self-defense is not enough.

 

[styrgwillidar]

But the settlement is for more than $1 million dollars and I’ve heard figures that it is actually for quite a bit more.

articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-04-15/news/os-trayvon-hoa-settlement-crump-argument-20130415_1_sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump

A million dollars could be quite cheap versus the cost of fighting it. What’s a lawyer cost-- $400 per hour? A good one 700-1000? How many will be working the case? Do they have lawyers with self-defense expertise on staff? Expert witness 500? 1000? Don’t forget, you’re paying those rates for every hour they work and travel in many cases. Are you using local folks, or having them travel to the area - add on hotels, travel expenses, etc. etc. et. You pay for time they are involved in phone calls, depositions, memos, court filings, initial hearing, court time, not to mention the supporting admin characters- legal secretaries, notaries, research assistants, etc. etc. etc.

This is why even innocent folks often plead in criminal cases, or plead down to lesser charges, or agree to diversion programs instead of fighting. Its why small businesses pay off even ‘nuisance’ suits. Our legal system in many ways is just extortion.

 

[MaryT777]

The actual fact and not supposition (such as it is cheaper to settle a lawsuit than to
litigate it which is true in most cases as such) is that the Insurance carrier felt the HOA endorsed Zimmerman In their newsletter. Thus they settled the case.

Not everyone in that neighborhood was happy with Zimmerman by any means.

Endorsing someone as such in a newsletter puts you legally responsible for their actions.

Simple as that.

It was openly stated why it was settled.

Insured home owner associations need to have someone specifically read the policy and know the laws regarding endorsing someone.

 

[MaryT777]

No evidence that he wasn’t.

’

The sworn testimony of the police officer states TM wasn’t doing anything wrong legally.
That is evidence that was sworn in and testified to.

I believe the police officer but I suppose not everyone does and believes Martin was indeed suspect in his behavior contrary to what was testified to in court.

 

[adrift]

“Irrational feeling expressed here”, casting dispersions that others are illogically looking at this while others could say the same for the pro-Zimmerman side.

dispersions is not the word you want. I get words mixed at times so I am not being critical just realizing that I am in the same boat with you at times.

dis·per·sion (d-spûrzhn, -shn)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of dispersing.
b. The state of being dispersed.
2. Dispersion The Diaspora of the Jews.
3. Statistics The degree of scatter of data, usually about an average value, such as the median.
4. Physics
a. Separation of a complex wave into its component parts according to a given characteristic, such as frequency or wavelength.
b. Separation of visible light into colors by refraction or diffraction.
5. Chemistry See disperse system

I think you meant aspersions?

a. An unfavorable or damaging remark; slander: Don’t cast aspersions on my honesty.
b. The act of defaming or slandering.

No you can’t say it for the “pro-zimmerman” side. That side actually sticks to facts. The anit-zimmerman side relys on emotion and mistatements.

 

[lcburgundy]

’

The sworn testimony of the police officer states TM wasn’t doing anything wrong legally.
That is evidence that was sworn in and testified to.

I believe the police officer but I suppose not everyone does and believes Martin was indeed suspect in his behavior contrary to what was testified to in court.

Yeah, a broken nose on the pummeled person beneath you will tend to arouse a little suspicion about your conduct.

(Hint: If the police actually believed the evidence showed TM did nothing wrong, they would have indicted GZ locally.)

 

[BroomWagon]

An HOA isn’t liable for damages simply because a crime happens on its grounds. Where The Retreat may have gone wrong is in allegedly holding Zimmerman out as a resource for residents to contact regarding crime. The evidence, if numerous reports are true, is a newsletter sent to The Retreat’s residents the same month Zimmerman fatally shot Martin. Though no media outlets have produced a copy of the newsletter, many report that under the heading “Neighborhood Watch,” the HOA recommended that residents who become crime victims first call police and then contact “our Captain, George Zimmerman…so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.”

The HOA’s apparent endorsement of Zimmerman’s actions may be its downfall. “What you have here is possibly a blurring of the lines of what really should be a function of the police department,” says Jed L. Frankel, a partner at Eisinger, Brown, Lewis, Frankel & Chaiet PA in Hollywood, Fla., who advises community associations. “If the association told people to report things to Zimmerman, that’s a much different function than the crimewatch programs we have here, whose role is to call the police and report suspicious activity. We even have citizen police activities, where people go out in police cars. But they don’t go chasing after suspicious people. That’s a police function.”

hoaleader.com/public/What-Should-HOAs-Learn-from-the-Trayvon-Martin-Tragedy.cfm

May, 2012

 

[MaryT777]

Without the gun he probably wouldn’t confront anybody and Tryvon would have been at home eating skittles.

He probably given his past history was not the right person to have a gun. Violent people rarely are.
That said we can thank our legal system for plea bargains that help save money and I hope he was able to come to a better awareness regarding alcohol since that is what he was sentenced to. “Alcohol awareness”