Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[BroomWagon]

Zimmerman got a trial of his peers, I would hope all of us would have that right.

But if 1 or 2 had been blacks, a black male say in the jury, you do wonder if the outcome would have been the same.

But we all have our rights to a fair trial and even at that, it seems the judge manuevered some in the court room.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Well for those in denial,to so many racism is still alive and well in America, how can there still be any doubt about that ? Sure there has been progress since the 60‘s, however, we have a long, long way to go here in America.

Carlan agreed there is racism. Some of it institutional, I experienced racism as a white person, an appointment taken away from me and given to a minority. A decision, I actually understand and in the best interests of the organization. Wish they’d made the decision prior to the appointment, instead of after.

However, it is damaging to insert racism where it doesn’t exist because it undermines credibility. Folks point to the (forgive my spelling) cases like Duke La Coss, that Tawyn Braley??? case, this case, to deny its ever a factor.

 

[BroomWagon]

No, my contention is the GZ should never have been following him in the first place. Why can’t people on this thread see that? The dispatcher clearly told him not to follow. Because GZ was negligent, and choose to take matters into his own hands, an innocent 17 year old boy is dead.

Worship God, not guns!

Dennis Prager brought up Zimmerman’s behavior but that behavior was not on trial. Still, I have mentioned before how even Neighborhood Watches have a sort of uniform, they will wear vests often to signify who they are. We all have seen security guards. Unfortunately, Zimmerman is not wearing anything like this.

Too, I think it’s a bit different than saying “it’s like blaming a woman for the clothes she’s wearing”, Zimmerman’s history shows he is no angel but again, this is not what one convicts one on, he wasn’t on trial for his conduct so much.

 

[LisaA]

Well for those in denial,to so many racism is still alive and well in America, how can there still be any doubt about that ? Sure there has been progress since the 60‘s, however, we have a long, long way to go here in America.

Carlan the only racism apparent in this case was the reverse racism that Zimmerman MUST be guilty because he was not black. Like the theory that only whites engage in racism there is also the theory if the victim is black and the perpetrator white, the white person is guilty…period.

The FBI investigated this case, interviewed over three dozen witnesses and received no reports of racism or bigotry by Zimmerman in this case or in his life prior to the shooting. Martins parents also said they did not think this was a case of racism.

I don’t know how old you are but I lived in a time before the Civil Rights Act and while my family was not bigoted, I knew people who were including some elderly family members raised at a different time.

I think there is some racism but it goes both ways and frankly I see far more overt anti-white racism and bigotry against white Christians particularly. Tell me about the racism you see in your world.

Lisa

 

[Robert_Sock]

And I don’t see why you can’t accept that Zimmerman could not be prescient! How could he have known or even begun to guess the outcome of his choices that evening? You want to hold him responsible for not knowing someone was going to try to beat him to death.

Being a vigilante has consequences that should have been foreseeable. The dispatcher certainly saw this happening and ordered him to stop his unwise pursuit.

Carrying a weapon come with added responsibility. GZ was negligent in those responsibilities and now an innocent 17 year old is dead. How could this be anything other than manslaughter? (Yes, I already know, the jury did not think so.)

Worship God, not guns!

 

[maryjk]

Being a vigilante has consequences that should have been foreseeable. **The dispatcher certainly saw this happening and ordered him to stop his unwise pursuit. **

Carrying a weapon come with added responsibility. GZ was negligent in those responsibilities and now an innocent 17 year old is dead. How could this be anything other than manslaughter? (Yes, I already know, the jury did not think so.)

Worship God, not guns!

No that is not what happened.

 

[LisaA]

Dennis Prager brought up Zimmerman’s behavior but that behavior was not on trial. Still, I have mentioned before how even Neighborhood Watches have a sort of uniform, they will wear vests often to signify who they are. We all have seen security guards. Unfortunately, Zimmerman is not wearing anything like this.

Too, I think it’s a bit different than saying “it’s like blaming a woman for the clothes she’s wearing”, Zimmerman’s history shows he is no angel but again, this is not what one convicts one on, he wasn’t on trial for his conduct so much.

You don’t understand the point being made. Zimmerman is being blamed for the fight because he “brought it on” by observing and following Martin, not because he instigated the fight. People are trying to connect the dots to claim that had Zimmerman done this or not done that, the fight would not have ensued. However there no evidence that Zimmerman instigated the attack. It was Martin’s attack on Zimmerman that resulted in his death, not Zimmerman deserving to be attacked because he was watching what he thought was suspicious behavior.

Again this is like saying a woman dressed in a sexy outfit or out alone “caused” her attack. It didn’t. The attack was caused by malformed character and depravity of mind.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

The NRA! Vigilantes! Many of the NRA members place too much faith and trust in guns, and little or no faith and trust in God.

LOVE, not guns!

Good heavens. You don’t sound very well informed and that is not a particularly accurate or more important it is a very uncharitable statement. You have NO idea about NRA members’ faith or lack thereof or trust in God. This is a stunningly unsubstantiated opinion.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

You don’t understand the point being made. Zimmerman is being blamed for the fight because he “brought it on” by observing and following Martin, not because he instigated the fight. People are trying to connect the dots to claim that had Zimmerman done this or not done that, the fight would not have ensued. However there no evidence that Zimmerman instigated the attack. It was Martin’s attack on Zimmerman that resulted in his death, not Zimmerman deserving to be attacked because he was watching what he thought was suspicious behavior.

Again this is like saying a woman dressed in a sexy outfit or out alone “caused” her attack. It didn’t. The attack was caused by malformed character and depravity of mind.

Lisa

I understand what you are saying, I think the proper verdict was reached.

However, it needs to be said, Zimmerman was brought up on domestic violence charges twice, charges of shoving an officer and had to go to an alcohol program. He was not wearing a uniform. I’m just saying he’s not the ideal person to confront out there as well. I wouldn’t want to even though I think he’s basically a good person.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

And I don’t see why you can’t accept that Zimmerman could not be prescient! How could he have known or even begun to guess the outcome of his choices that evening? You want to hold him responsible for not knowing someone was going to try to beat him to death.

Actually based on Zimmerman’s description of the suspicious person (on drugs, up to no good, several recent break-ins in the area) it was not unreasonable for him to assume the individual was probably dangerous. He was so aware that such an individual could be dangerous that he didn’t want to say his home address out loud on the phone.

He didn’t have to be prescient, it was basic common sense based on the situation as he perceived it…

 

[SwizzleStick]

Being a vigilante has consequences that should have been foreseeable. …

Inaccurate. Zimmerman was not a vigilante. He was a neighborhood watchman.

…The dispatcher certainly saw this happening and ordered him to stop his unwise pursuit.

Inaccurate. The dispatcher did no such thing. He mildly suggested “We don’t need you to do that” and Zimmerman appeared to comply.

…Carrying a weapon come with added responsibility…

Accurate.

…GZ was negligent in those responsibilities. …

Zimmerman’s carrying is probably what saved his live.

…and now an innocent 17 year old is dead. …

Possibly, though according to Zimmerman’s injuries, the young man was not so innocent.

…How could this be anything other than manslaughter? …

It could be justifiable self-defense, as stated and supported by Zimmerman and evidence and the not guilty verdict.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Being a vigilante has consequences that should have been foreseeable.

Please define and provide evidence he was a vigilante.

The dispatcher certainly saw this happening and ordered him to stop his unwise pursuit.

No. Dispatcher actually testified they can not give orders, only recommendations. Even if he had ordered Zimmerman to stop, it was not binding on Z. Secondly, Zimmerman did stop following Martin. This is supported by Zimmermans statement, the dispatchers testimony, and the testimony of the girl on the phone with Martin.

Again, we disagree because we are talking about the actual event, while you appear to be discussing a fictional scenario.

Carrying a weapon come with added responsibility.

GZ was negligent in those responsibilities

Please provide evidence of where/how exactly he was negligent? His conduct was in compliance with laws and regulations for a CCW holder (unless you have evidence he drew the weapon prior to being in fear of imminent serious bodily harm)

and now an innocent 17 year old is dead.

Again, I have a problem with defining someone violently assaulting another as innocent. Do you have evidence that was not presented to the jury that this did not occur?

How could this be anything other than manslaughter? (Yes, I already know, the jury did not think so.)

Because a person has a legal right to use lethal force to counter an imminent threat of seriouly bodily injury (serious as defined by legal statute)

Worship God, not guns!

 

[LisaA]

I understand what you are saying, I think the proper verdict was reached.

However, it needs to be said, Zimmerman was brought up on domestic violence charges twice, charges of shoving an officer and had to go to an alcohol program. He was not wearing a uniform. I’m just saying he’s not the ideal person to confront out there as well. I wouldn’t want to even though I think he’s basically a good person.

Neighborhood watch members do not wear uniforms. I think you are confusing them with the Guardian Angels who wore red berets and some kind of insignia. The point of Neighborhood Watch is just that, WATCH. Be observant. See something and say something. Report suspicious activity.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman thought he had authority to stop or question Martin. There is no evidence he took the law in his hands and tried to apprehend him. He did what he was supposed to do, called the police. As the behavior was merely suspicious, rather than a crime in progress he called the non-emergency line. He attempted to get the information regarding Martin and his location to the police and arranged to meet them.

None of this comports with a theory of racial profiling, vigilante justice or being trigger happy. He used the gun as a last resort and by his testimony as he thought Martin had seen it and might take it from him. I think it was an act of desperation in the face of aggression.

Lisa

 

[mek42]

Did anyone not connected to Z testify he had abandoned his stalking when the attack happened? How soon after first being instructed to disengage did he obey?

 

[SwizzleStick]

Actually based on Zimmerman’s description of the suspicious person (on drugs, up to no good, several recent break-ins in the area) it was not unreasonable for him to assume the individual was probably dangerous. He was so aware that such an individual could be dangerous that he didn’t want to say his home address out loud on the phone.

He didn’t have to be prescient, it was basic common sense based on the situation as he perceived it…

I agree that some of Zimmerman’s choices could be viewed as foolish and they were not the same choices I would have made myself. However, that doesn’t make him guilty of a criminal offense.

 

[livingwordunity]

Well for those in denial,to so many racism is still alive and well in America, how can there still be any doubt about that ? Sure there has been progress since the 60‘s, however, we have a long, long way to go here in America.

Racism will never go completely away. But the fact that America has a black man in his second term as POTUS is proof that racism is not what it was. And there is no proof that Zimmerman was a racist. The ones who are trying to make this about race are throwing gasoline on the fire and could incite an all out race war. The ones who keep insisting that GZ is guilty are the real racists since they are the ones who see everything in terms of race. They see racism under every rock and will not accept a world without racism. There are some who would have no relevance if it were not for keeping racism in America alive. If GZ would have been black in the same situation none of us would have ever heard about TM. But they assume that GZ is guilty BECAUSE HE IS WHITE.

 

[Brendan]

No, my contention is the GZ should never have been following him in the first place. Why can’t people on this thread see that? The dispatcher clearly told him not to follow. Because GZ was negligent, and choose to take matters into his own hands, an innocent 17 year old boy is dead.

Worship God, not guns!

Here is the transcript of the 911 call

911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]

I think the clarity that you are speaking of is missing. All the operator told Zimmerman was that the operator did not require him to follow TM.

Based on this transcript, it would be difficult to prosecute a claim of negligence based on this call. GZ was not actually told not to follow, only that the operator did not have a need for him to follow.

 

[garn9173]

Being a vigilante has consequences that should have been foreseeable. The dispatcher certainly saw this happening and ordered him to stop his unwise pursuit.

Carrying a weapon come with added responsibility. GZ was negligent in those responsibilities and now an innocent 17 year old is dead. How could this be anything other than manslaughter? (Yes, I already know, the jury did not think so.)

Worship God, not guns!

Innocent? Trayvon was bashing in Zimmerman’s brains.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I agree that some of Zimmerman’s choices could be viewed as foolish and they were not the same choices I would have made myself. However, that doesn’t make him guilty of a criminal offense.

Agreed.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…

How could this be anything other than manslaughter? (Yes, I already know, the jury did not think so.)

…

The prosecution brought up the fact that Zimmerman only fired one shot vice several. Since normally folks in fear for their life fire more than one round (… in the case of police its not uncommon for multiple officers to empty their weapons, but I digress…) I thought they were going to go down one of two paths, but they ended up going nowhere.

1. Zimmerman wasn’t really in fear for his life since he couldn’t possibly tell in the time to stop firing the second round that the first had stopped the attack.
2. That Zimmerman had not actually intended to fire the round when he did. Even if the conditions justified the use of lethal force, and it would be completely lawful to shoot, if the prosecution could have gotten Zimmerman to state, or gotten the jury to believe that the gun fired before he intended because of inadvertent pressure on the trigger---- that would have been manslaughter.