Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[Cider]

Even expecting someone to adopt parts of a common culture is today viewed as imperialistic, because all cultures and values are basically considered equally good, so to teach her and expect her to read cursive and speak clearly is imperialistic at best and insensitive and racist at worst. The sad part is taxpayers have paid well over $100,000 for such an “education.”

She was born in the US though. She testified her mother spoke little English but her father did. My husband is first generation American and while he is fluent in 3 different languages that were learned in his youth he speaks each of them as a native speaker, and he was raised in a home with one family member that spoke basically no English, and another one that spoke it well but had a heavy accent.

I don’t think the issue with Martins friend ( I can never remember her last name) is lack of literacy ( I know many schools that are or have dropped cursive). She testified she understood everything the lawyers were asking her.

 

[MaryT777]

Even expecting someone to adopt parts of a common culture is today viewed as imperialistic, because all cultures and values are basically considered equally good, so to teach her and expect her to read cursive and speak clearly is imperialistic at best and insensitive and racist at worst. The sad part is taxpayers have paid well over $100,000 for such an “education.”

Well said.

 

[LisaA]

I spoke too soon, the horse wrung his tail and got up again

Hope this hasn’t been discussed already but Jeantel told Dr Mark Lamont Hill on HuffPo that she thought Martin HAD thrown the first punch. She said he told her he “had to go take care of something” and disconnected. I believe his ear phones were found in his pocket which comports with Jeantel’s words. She said “Well you know it’s a black thing, or maybe something from this generation but if he wasn’t going to do something about it why did he cut off the call…” (not a quote but that was the gist of it).

I know on the stand and in various depositions and questioning she had several different stories but since the first query was at Martin’s MOTHER’S home with her sitting there it’s understandable she wanted to paint a better picture of the series of events.

As to her lack of proper grammar and inappropriate speech, I think she’s a function of her world which is not simply a different culture but one where ambition, education, and striving are not really a factor. If this woman works for a living and supports herself I’ll drop over of shock. She really seemed like someone who would not function well in most workplaces.

As to the cursive issue, they are no longer teaching cursive. I guess we are all going to electronic or printed signatures. My stepsons ages l3 and 15 cannot read or write cursive although they are both excellent students. It’s just considered unnecessary in today’s techno world.

But back to the thread, I have no clue how anyone thinks that the death of Martin was a result of Zimmerman chasing him down, then throwing himself on the ground, breaking his own nose and then shooting Martin to disguise the killing.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
Lisa

 

[MaryT777]

She was born in the US though. She testified her mother spoke little English but her father did. My husband is first generation American and while he is fluent in 3 different languages that were learned in his youth he speaks each of them as a native speaker, and he was raised in a home with one family member that spoke basically no English, and another one that spoke it well but had a heavy accent.

I don’t think the issue with Martins friend ( I can never remember her last name) is lack of literacy ( I know many schools that are or have dropped cursive). She testified she understood everything the lawyers were asking her.

I just believe albeit she understood it she could not answer very thoroughly
though. She just truly obviously would have preferred to be anywhere else and that showed through in her attitude.

She has said she regrets the attitude she portrayed.

I think it was somewhat of an issue of literacy.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Yeah, and having a society of gunslinging vigilantes will magically eliminate the high crime rate.

Robert, no one is talking about a “society of gunslinging vigilantes.” We are talking about people who have exercised their rights and went through the training and background checks necessary to have a concealed carry permit. In communities with concealed carry…the rate of gun crimes is lower…that’s just a fact.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Oh man, you are so going on BS’s sinful list now.

Is that like Santa’s naughty list?

 

[Yerusalyim]

All senseless violence, such as that seen in this case, is a sin to condone.

It was senseless for TM to start beating on GZ…GZ felt like his life was in danger and therefore had a right to defend himself…this is doubly true if…as GZ asserts…TM was attempting to grab his weapon.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I spoke too soon, the horse wrung his tail and got up again

Hope this hasn’t been discussed already but Jeantel told Dr Mark Lamont Hill on HuffPo that she thought Martin HAD thrown the first punch. She said he told her he “had to go take care of something” and disconnected. I believe his ear phones were found in his pocket which comports with Jeantel’s words. She said “Well you know it’s a black thing, or maybe something from this generation but if he wasn’t going to do something about it why did he cut off the call…” (not a quote but that was the gist of it).

I know on the stand and in various depositions and questioning she had several different stories but since the first query was at Martin’s MOTHER’S home with her sitting there it’s understandable she wanted to paint a better picture of the series of events.

As to her lack of proper grammar and inappropriate speech, I think she’s a function of her world which is not simply a different culture but one where ambition, education, and striving are not really a factor. If this woman works for a living and supports herself I’ll drop over of shock. She really seemed like someone who would not function well in most workplaces.

As to the cursive issue, they are no longer teaching cursive. I guess we are all going to electronic or printed signatures. My stepsons ages l3 and 15 cannot read or write cursive although they are both excellent students. It’s just considered unnecessary in today’s techno world.

But back to the thread, I have no clue how anyone thinks that the death of Martin was a result of Zimmerman chasing him down, then throwing himself on the ground, breaking his own nose and then shooting Martin to disguise the killing.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
Lisa

She is a product of a culture that considers the use of proper American English and academic achievement “trying to be white.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

She is a product of a culture that considers the use of proper American English and academic achievement “trying to be white.”

This is a tragedy. I would have hoped President Obama and his wife would have addressed this. Obama’s son would not be Trayvon. Trayvon was not a wealthy, educated, elite like Sasha or Malia.

Sadly, the first black president of the USA did nothing to help the ghetto mentality of many of his race.

 

[Nimzovik]

It was senseless for TM to start beating on GZ…GZ felt like his life was in danger and therefore had a right to defend himself…this is doubly true if…as GZ asserts…TM was attempting to grab his weapon.

Indeed.

 

[purplerosie]

I feel that the jury did their job and followed the law to find GZ not guilty. This is our Judicial system and it should be respected. Having been born in a communist country in which such a system does not exist, I am grateful everyday for what we have.
I feel extreme sadness for both families and truly believe that both TM and GZ lost their lives
in this tragedy. As grief-stricken as the Martin’s family is over the lost of their son, I pray that their faith helps them know that Trayvon is with the Lord. But, George will have to live with this tragedy as long as he is alive. So, having said that, as a Catholic I pray for both of them. But mostly that the Holy Spirit comes upon all these people that are instigating and turning this into a racial social war.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I feel that the jury did their job and followed the law to find GZ not guilty. This is our Judicial system and it should be respected. Having been born in a communist country in which such a system does not exist, I am grateful everyday for what we have.
I feel extreme sadness for both families and truly believe that both TM and GZ lost their lives
in this tragedy. As grief-stricken as the Martin’s family is over the lost of their son, I pray that their faith helps them know that Trayvon is with the Lord. But, George will have to live with this tragedy as long as he is alive. So, having said that, as a Catholic I pray for both of them. But mostly that the Holy Spirit comes upon all these people that are instigating and turning this into a racial social war.

 

[Elizabeth502]

In fact, I think that case can be made, Zimmerman was found not guilty but his conduct is very much in question.

Except that we don’t convict people for merely questionable conduct. Rather, we charge and convict relative to actual crimes committed – for example, carrying a gun without a permit; public drunkenness (even if no crime results), battery ™, drug dealing, etc. We don’t convict someone for “following” someone, as the lawyers have already said.

Here’s the thing:
These kinds of trials always tend to revert to emotional accusations of “racism,” merely because two races are involved. And often the families of the victims are exploited for the public profile of the D.A.'s or prosecutor’s office. A responsible D.A. would have met with the family, sympathized with their impulse to charge “fully,” but explained to them how weak the case was against GZ. This is relevant because, had GZ been found guilty of a lesser charge than Murder 2, the Martin family would have been in a better position to collect damages of some kind in a civil suit. A criminal conviction always strengthens a subsequent civil proceeding. Now the family is in a weaker position, with possibly fewer attorneys interested in taking a contingency case with reduced hope of conviction there, as well.

But the D.A. decided to overcharge – whether or not they were pressured by the family to do so is inconsequential. The D.A.'s office should have been the responsible party, exerting the leadership, instead of being led politically. The death of another human being is not a “political” event unless it is expressly so, such as in armed, international conflict or a political retaliation/assassination. The prosecutor should have guided the family to go for a lesser charge, and framed a case around negligence, recklessness, failure to heed law enforcement, etc. There would still have been some issues with that (because of TM’s battery, obviously), but it would have been far less “doomed” as a strategy.

Translation: The real “cowboy” was not GZ but the prosecutor’s office.

 

[Orogeny]

I feel that the jury did their job and followed the law to find GZ not guilty. This is our Judicial system and it should be respected. Having been born in a communist country in which such a system does not exist, I am grateful everyday for what we have.
I feel extreme sadness for both families and truly believe that both TM and GZ lost their lives
in this tragedy. As grief-stricken as the Martin’s family is over the lost of their son, I pray that their faith helps them know that Trayvon is with the Lord. But, George will have to live with this tragedy as long as he is alive. So, having said that, as a Catholic I pray for both of them. But mostly that the Holy Spirit comes upon all these people that are instigating and turning this into a racial social war.

Very well said!

Peace

Tim

 

[meltzerboy]

Except that we don’t convict people for merely questionable conduct. Rather, we charge and convict relative to actual crimes committed – for example, carrying a gun without a permit; public drunkenness (even if no crime results), battery ™, drug dealing, etc. We don’t convict someone for “following” someone, as the lawyers have already said.

Here’s the thing:
These kinds of trials always tend to revert to emotional accusations of “racism,” merely because two races are involved. And often the families of the victims are exploited for the public profile of the D.A.'s or prosecutor’s office. A responsible D.A. would have met with the family, sympathized with their impulse to charge “fully,” but explained to them how weak the case was against GZ. This is relevant because, had GZ been found guilty of a lesser charge than Murder 2, the Martin family would have been in a better position to collect damages of some kind in a civil suit. A criminal conviction always strengthens a subsequent civil proceeding. Now the family is in a weaker position, with possibly fewer attorneys interested in taking a contingency case with reduced hope of conviction there, as well.

But the D.A. decided to overcharge – whether or not they were pressured by the family to do so is inconsequential. The D.A.'s office should have been the responsible party, exerting the leadership, instead of being led politically. The death of another human being is not a “political” event unless it is expressly so, such as in armed, international conflict or a political retaliation/assassination. The prosecutor should have guided the family to go for a lesser charge, and framed a case around negligence, recklessness, failure to heed law enforcement, etc. There would still have been some issues with that (because of TM’s battery, obviously), but it would have been far less “doomed” as a strategy.

Translation: The real “cowboy” was not GZ but the prosecutor’s office.

I’m not a lawyer but I did hear that prosecutors sometimes intentionally seek to overcharge in a case in hope of the jury’s awarding a lesser, compromise charge, which is what they expected to begin with. It’s an old psychological technique, similar to stretch goals, and the reverse of lowballing.

 

[MaryT777]

She is a product of a culture that considers the use of proper American English and academic achievement “trying to be white.”

Well said.

 

[MaryT777]

I feel that the jury did their job and followed the law to find GZ not guilty. This is our Judicial system and it should be respected. Having been born in a communist country in which such a system does not exist, I am grateful everyday for what we have.
I feel extreme sadness for both families and truly believe that both TM and GZ lost their lives
in this tragedy. As grief-stricken as the Martin’s family is over the lost of their son, I pray that their faith helps them know that Trayvon is with the Lord. But, George will have to live with this tragedy as long as he is alive. So, having said that, as a Catholic I pray for both of them. But mostly that the Holy Spirit comes upon all these people that are instigating and turning this into a racial social war.

Excellent post; I couldn’t agree more! Very charitable as well.

 

[BroomWagon]

Except that we don’t convict people for merely questionable conduct. Rather, we charge and convict relative to actual crimes committed – for example, carrying a gun without a permit; public drunkenness (even if no crime results), battery ™, drug dealing, etc. We don’t convict someone for “following” someone, as the lawyers have already said.

Here’s the thing:
These kinds of trials always tend to revert to emotional accusations of “racism,” merely because two races are involved. And often the families of the victims are exploited for the public profile of the D.A.'s or prosecutor’s office. A responsible D.A. would have met with the family, sympathized with their impulse to charge “fully,” but explained to them how weak the case was against GZ. This is relevant because, had GZ been found guilty of a lesser charge than Murder 2, the Martin family would have been in a better position to collect damages of some kind in a civil suit. A criminal conviction always strengthens a subsequent civil proceeding. Now the family is in a weaker position, with possibly fewer attorneys interested in taking a contingency case with reduced hope of conviction there, as well.

But the D.A. decided to overcharge – whether or not they were pressured by the family to do so is inconsequential. The D.A.'s office should have been the responsible party, exerting the leadership, instead of being led politically. The death of another human being is not a “political” event unless it is expressly so, such as in armed, international conflict or a political retaliation/assassination. The prosecutor should have guided the family to go for a lesser charge, and framed a case around negligence, recklessness, failure to heed law enforcement, etc. There would still have been some issues with that (because of TM’s battery, obviously), but it would have been far less “doomed” as a strategy.

Translation: The real “cowboy” was not GZ but the prosecutor’s office.

This case is way overblown but I don’t know one gun owner who has had 2 felonies against them dismissed. It looks a bit like an accident that was waiting to happen.

 

[BroomWagon]

I thought the mods were going to close this thread after a thousand posts. The jury gave their verdict. It’s now officially become the beating of a dead horse. It’s over. We should all put this in the past, and get on with our lives.

This is still the top news story. Or it is a top news story still. Check the news. Check one’s favorite news source whatever it may be.

This is the news forum.

It’s not officially beating a dead horse.

Now, if we were carrying on about the Boston Bombing, Casey Anthony, maybe then, one could call it old news.

Too, it shouldn’t be but it will be one of the top news stories this year unless something really big were to happen.

 

[Carlan]

This case is way overblown but I don’t know one gun owner who has had 2 felonies against them dismissed. It looks a bit like an accident that was waiting to happen.

You know what, and possibly I will be jumped on for not being politically correct, but I have been wondering If maybe George Zimmerman had someone one high pulling for him.