Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[BroomWagon]

You know what, and possibly I will be jumped on for not being politically correct, but I have been wondering If maybe George Zimmerman had someone one high pulling for him.

I don’t mind the man GZ himself, I think he might be basically good, I wish for him and his family to be safe.

We get a lot of the trial to watch when there are tragedies just as bad,

Blacks supposedly benefit disproportionately from Stand Your Ground Laws in Florida.

examiner.com/article/blacks-benefit-disproportionately-from-fla-s-stand-your-ground-law Or many other sources, this was among the first to come up in a search.

It’s just a terrible tragedy what happened to the young man, Martin. It shouldn’t happen.

 

[St_Francis]

She is a product of a culture that considers the use of proper American English and academic achievement “trying to be white.”

Popping back in… Part of the reason Rachel Jeantel speaks with a lack of clarity is that she has a serious underbite. Her lower teeth extend beyond her upper teeth–try jutting your lower jaw out like that and talking. Very difficult.

This is a tragedy. I would have hoped President Obama and his wife would have addressed this. Obama’s son would not be Trayvon. Trayvon was not a wealthy, educated, elite like Sasha or Malia.

Sadly, the first black president of the USA did nothing to help the ghetto mentality of many of his race.

I was happy about his comments about fathers needing to be involved, but those few words seemed to be it. I too was very disappointed. He is in a position to do so much…

 

[7_Sorrows]

You know, for those who are arguing against the concepts of evidence, logic, reason, witnesses, I wonder how many of them actually watched the trial or read trial transcripts?

I haven’t read each and every post, but I think a lot of of the people disappointed in the verdict were going purely by emotion and not caring about facts at all.

 

[Tiger_Woods]

I’m glad Zimmerman is free. Hopefully he and his family can live long fulfilling lives. What a great neighbor.

 

[otjm]

Prosecution failed to do it’s job, end of discussion. Some of the experts have said the prosecution was calling witness’ that ended up helping the defense.

Sad to know that thanks to racists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, Zimmerman faces potential double jeopardy.

The prosecution did not fail to do its job. The prosecution did not have the evidence to prove the case they indicted.

This case should not have been brought, given the evidence which the state had - including the testimony of the police who investigated.

This case was tried in the media; we were constantly shown pictures of Mr. Martin at the age of 12. It became a “racial” case with both the black community and the liberal community trying - with absolutely no evidence whatsoever - to go down the path of “racial profiling” and the media - which tends toward the liberal e3ndo fo the spectrum - played it out. It cost the police chief his job; the county prosecutor was taken off the case and a new prosecution team hand-picked.

But to prove a case, you have to have facts.

They didn’t. and that is not mishandling the case; that is not “failing to do its job”; that is getting shoved into doing something you don’t have backing evidence for.
The media tried to play Zimmerman for a rcist; but what did the tesitmony in court show? Who made the racist comment? Cracker?

It wasn’t Zimmerman.

Eye witness testimony was sketchy and not all tht good, but perhaps the most telling eye witness was the one who said there were two guys fighting, one on top the other and the one on the bottom had a red shirt or jacket.

Which is what Zimmerman was wearing, and is testimony that was supported by the physical evidence of the wounds on Zimmerman’s face, and consistent with the firearms expert who testified that the bullet wound was consistent with the testimony that Martin was on top.

The consistent evidence was in favor of the defendant.

 

[Carlan]

I don’t mind the man GZ himself, I think he might be basically good, I wish for him and his family to be safe.

We get a lot of the trial to watch when there are tragedies just as bad,

Blacks supposedly benefit disproportionately from Stand Your Ground Laws in Florida.

examiner.com/article/blacks-benefit-disproportionately-from-fla-s-stand-your-ground-law Or many other sources, this was among the first to come up in a search.

It’s just a terrible tragedy what happened to the young man, Martin. It shouldn’t happen.

Yes, And it is so. Peace, Carlan

 

[maryjk]

This case is way overblown but I don’t know one gun owner who has had 2 felonies against them dismissed. It looks a bit like an accident that was waiting to happen.

How many gun owners do you know?

And of those that you know, how many talk about having charges dismissed?

Heck, how many people overall talk about having charges dismissed??

 

[LisaA]

Except that we don’t convict people for merely questionable conduct. Rather, we charge and convict relative to actual crimes committed – for example, carrying a gun without a permit; public drunkenness (even if no crime results), battery ™, drug dealing, etc. We don’t convict someone for “following” someone, as the lawyers have already said.

Here’s the thing:
These kinds of trials always tend to revert to emotional accusations of “racism,” merely because two races are involved. And often the families of the victims are exploited for the public profile of the D.A.'s or prosecutor’s office. A responsible D.A. would have met with the family, sympathized with their impulse to charge “fully,” but explained to them how weak the case was against GZ. This is relevant because, had GZ been found guilty of a lesser charge than Murder 2, the Martin family would have been in a better position to collect damages of some kind in a civil suit. A criminal conviction always strengthens a subsequent civil proceeding. Now the family is in a weaker position, with possibly fewer attorneys interested in taking a contingency case with reduced hope of conviction there, as well.

But the D.A. decided to overcharge – whether or not they were pressured by the family to do so is inconsequential. The D.A.'s office should have been the responsible party, exerting the leadership, instead of being led politically. The death of another human being is not a “political” event unless it is expressly so, such as in armed, international conflict or a political retaliation/assassination. The prosecutor should have guided the family to go for a lesser charge, and framed a case around negligence, recklessness, failure to heed law enforcement, etc. There would still have been some issues with that (because of TM’s battery, obviously), but it would have been far less “doomed” as a strategy.

Translation: The real “cowboy” was not GZ but the prosecutor’s office.

That’s the real culprit in the case. And what misery, anger, and divisiveness resulted from her gross ambition and ego. Even before the case Ms Corey was being criticized for her outrageous and biased remarks regarding Martin vis a vis Zimmerman. SHE had decided the case and it was up to her team to prove it. They even hid or delayed providing evidence. I also think the judge tended to side with the Martin team…perhaps so she would not have been critisized for helping the “white” er Hispanic er mixed race Zimmerman.

The race hucksters are so determined to keep the contention and divisiveness alive. They were described like “little children afraid to let go of the edge of the pool” by one reporter. This kind of bonanza doesn’t come along every day. They have to keep this up. Those who point to the REAL problems in the black community such as gang violence, single mothers and irresponsible sperm donors, drugs and low levels of high school graduation and employment are pilloried and demeaned as “Oreos” for not taking Martin’s side simply because he was black.

I was very saddened by the family’s comments. All along they have been very dignified and not seeming to fall for those using them and their son for their own entertainment if not ratings. Mr Martin said Trayon wouldn’t be dead were he not black which ignores everything they heard over the weeks and months since the shooting. I understand wanting to take their son’s side and mourning his loss. But I think they finally drank the Kool Aid.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

I’m not a lawyer but I did hear that prosecutors sometimes intentionally seek to overcharge in a case in hope of the jury’s awarding a lesser, compromise charge, which is what they expected to begin with. It’s an old psychological technique, similar to stretch goals, and the reverse of lowballing.

Yes this does happen. As with civil suits where they ask for millions and are willing to settle for ten grand, better to ask and see how far you can get. However I think in this instance even manslaughter would have been a reach…but certainly more attainable. To get 2nd Degree Murder you have to prove malice among other things. The jury was offered manslaughter but the evidence still didn’t uphold their claims. The attempt to call this child abuse was laughable.

I think Elizabeth’s assessment was correct. The Prosecution should have been very blunt with the family about their chances. Subsequent to the case much more evidence and testimony is coming out, information the prosecution had that would have lent to a not guilty verdict. They had that info from the beginning and had to know this was not a very strong case, particularly for 2nd Degree Murder.

Had they charged Zimmerman with Manslaughter, I suspect they would have prevailed on SOME charge. Everything the jury members have said indicates they thought Zimmerman should face some punishment (if his ruined life were not enough!) but there was nothing in the law that supported these charges.

Now the Prosecution looks like fools at best and corrupt at worst. The country is divided, race relations are at a low, Obama and Holder are ginning things up to resurrect their gun control agenda (talk about beating a dead horse), Sharpton bought a new suit and Jesse Jackson is licking his chops. Lovely…

Lisa

 

[Seagirt]

The prosecution did not fail to do its job. The prosecution did not have the evidence to prove the case they indicted.

This case should not have been brought, given the evidence which the state had - including the testimony of the police who investigated.

This case was tried in the media; we were constantly shown pictures of Mr. Martin at the age of 12. It became a “racial” case with both the black community and the liberal community trying - with absolutely no evidence whatsoever - to go down the path of “racial profiling” and the media - which tends toward the liberal e3ndo fo the spectrum - played it out. It cost the police chief his job; the county prosecutor was taken off the case and a new prosecution team hand-picked.

But to prove a case, you have to have facts.

They didn’t. and that is not mishandling the case; that is not “failing to do its job”; that is getting shoved into doing something you don’t have backing evidence for.
The media tried to play Zimmerman for a rcist; but what did the tesitmony in court show? Who made the racist comment? Cracker?

It wasn’t Zimmerman.

Eye witness testimony was sketchy and not all tht good, but perhaps the most telling eye witness was the one who said there were two guys fighting, one on top the other and the one on the bottom had a red shirt or jacket.

Which is what Zimmerman was wearing, and is testimony that was supported by the physical evidence of the wounds on Zimmerman’s face, and consistent with the firearms expert who testified that the bullet wound was consistent with the testimony that Martin was on top.

The consistent evidence was in favor of the defendant.

LESSONS TO LEARN FROM ZIMMERMAN CASE

=Some people need black to equal innocent and white to equal guilty in order to strike some rough balance against injustices of the past.

This is a curious psychological pathology that suggests that memories of slavery and the Jim Crow era will sting less if we tilt today’s courtroom playing fields against all whites and in favor of all blacks.

This path is doomed, of course, and it damages us along the way, by slowing the progress we are undoubtedly making. Whites willing to cast off that last vestige of racism may hit the pause button on their epiphanies at the sight of angry blacks unveiling their own pernicious prejudice-- the belief that Zimmerman (and anyone supporting his acquittal) are acting out of racial hostility.

1. Al Sharpton and his fellow rabble-rousers do not know the meaning of shame.

I am willing to hear and tolerate their assertion that the jury ruled wrongly, that Zimmerman is a racist predator and Trayvon Martin a hero worthy of honor. BUT SHARPTON AND his brethren are Race Profiteers who enrich themselves by inciting a mob mentality. There was actually no hard evidence that GZ profiled or stalked Trayvon-- more likely… the boy got scared and reacted violently… at 5-11 and 158 pounds he overwhelmed the surprised 5-7 inch GZ. It is a mistake and a tragedy; but not Murder 2.

 

[Cider]

I’m sure the states attorneys office was getting a lot of pressure from DOJ to bring the case. I’m not sure how much Angela Corey personally believed in the case, the states attorneys office and the prosecutors that argued the case are not stupid. They had to know they could only win by playing to peoples emotions since they didn’t have any evidence. After all emotionalism is what got the case brought forward. They conveniently never put to it to a grand jury, probably because they knew they likely wouldn’t get an indictment. The very fact they went to the lengths of trying to charge him with child abuse at the last second, shows how desperate they were from the very beginning because it took time to prepare all those case citations to try and support the charge.

 

[fix]

Except that we don’t convict people for merely questionable conduct. Rather, we charge and convict relative to actual crimes committed – for example, carrying a gun without a permit; public drunkenness (even if no crime results), battery ™, drug dealing, etc. We don’t convict someone for “following” someone, as the lawyers have already said.

Here’s the thing:
These kinds of trials always tend to revert to emotional accusations of “racism,” merely because two races are involved. And often the families of the victims are exploited for the public profile of the D.A.'s or prosecutor’s office. A responsible D.A. would have met with the family, sympathized with their impulse to charge “fully,” but explained to them how weak the case was against GZ. This is relevant because, had GZ been found guilty of a lesser charge than Murder 2, the Martin family would have been in a better position to collect damages of some kind in a civil suit. A criminal conviction always strengthens a subsequent civil proceeding. Now the family is in a weaker position, with possibly fewer attorneys interested in taking a contingency case with reduced hope of conviction there, as well.

But the D.A. decided to overcharge – whether or not they were pressured by the family to do so is inconsequential. The D.A.'s office should have been the responsible party, exerting the leadership, instead of being led politically. The death of another human being is not a “political” event unless it is expressly so, such as in armed, international conflict or a political retaliation/assassination. The prosecutor should have guided the family to go for a lesser charge, and framed a case around negligence, recklessness, failure to heed law enforcement, etc. There would still have been some issues with that (because of TM’s battery, obviously), but it would have been far less “doomed” as a strategy.

Translation: The real “cowboy” was not GZ but the prosecutor’s office.

You have to give the jury much credit. They did not bend to the ideological pressure and propaganda.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I haven’t read each and every post, but I think a lot of of the people disappointed in the verdict were going purely by emotion and not caring about facts at all.

I agree. It is tragic that young Martin died, but compounding the tragedy by destroying the other young man is no help. There are no winners in this tragic case.

 

[fix]

I’m sure the states attorneys office was getting a lot of pressure from DOJ to bring the case. I’m not sure how much Angela Corey personally believed in the case, the states attorneys office and the prosecutors that argued the case are not stupid. They had to know they could only win by playing to peoples emotions since they didn’t have any evidence. After all emotionalism is what got the case brought forward. They conveniently never put to it to a grand jury, probably because they knew they likely wouldn’t get an indictment. The very fact they went to the lengths of trying to charge him with child abuse at the last second, shows how desperate they were from the very beginning because it took time to prepare all those case citations to try and support the charge.

The jury could have been like the one in the OJ case and nullified reality for their private agendas.

 

[Cider]

The jury could have been like the one in the OJ case and nullified reality for their private agendas.

Yes, that is what the prosecutors were hoping for and tried to give them every reason to do that. I find it odd that they chose 2 jurors with lawyers in the family considering their weak case. It’s not like people don’t discuss their jobs and school ( one had a lawyer son) with their family. They would have been exposed to the concept of law over emotion even if they had never sought it out themselves. The first thing the jury did was ask for the evidence list, which O’Mara said he found interesting.

 

[fix]

Yes, that is what the prosecutors were hoping for and tried to give them every reason to do that. I find it odd that they chose 2 jurors with lawyers in the family considering their weak case. It’s not like people don’t discuss their jobs and school ( one had a lawyer son) with their family. They would have been exposed to the concept of law over emotion even if they had never sought it out themselves. The first thing the jury did was ask for the evidence list, which O’Mara said he found interesting.

I was surprised at the verdict. I had lost faith in common sense and decency. The went against the grain and acted justly.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I was surprised at the verdict. I had lost faith in common sense and decency. The went against the grain and acted justly.

I was a bit surprised too. I was afraid a jury made up of only women might allow emotion, rather than facts and evidence, to sway the outcome, especially since most of the jury members are moms. Sorry if that sounds sexist. I don’t mean it as such.

 

[LisaA]

I was a bit surprised too. I was afraid a jury made up of only women might allow emotion to rule the outcome, especially since most of the jury members are moms. Sorry if that sounds sexist. I don’t mean it as such.

Not to me. I worried about that as well, particularly as they noted one jury cried at the sight of some of the evidence. I am giving them tremendous credit for courage and strength although thankfully they were sequestered and didn’t get the 24/7 spin from the outside. They clearly took their case seriously but we’ve seen SO many travesties in the past with seemingly overwhelming evidence…OJ comes to mind here…that you have to wonder if the desire to provide retribution for past racism would push them to give a “pass” to the shaky ground on which the prosecution brought its case.

I suspect the Prosecutors WANTED all females…hence only the one alternate was male. Ironically the potential black juror was kicked for listening to Fox News. Guess that means I’ll never serve on a criminal case!

Lisa

 

[Elizabeth502]

You have to give the jury much credit. They did not bend to the ideological pressure and propaganda.

I do, I do.

 

[BroomWagon]

How many gun owners do you know?

So you do know gun owners with CCW permits have had felony charges against them dismissed??

I know some Iraq/Afghanistan war veterans who put their lives on the line for this country who can’t readily conceal and carry firearms. Because of psychological counseling at one point.

Thus, we could easily have a case where Zimmerman has been able to play the system and being able to have the CCW.

Gun owners need to be responsible too.

And of those that you know, how many talk about having charges dismissed?

Irrelevant, it is a breakdown in the State laws that allowed him to have this gun.

Heck, how many people overall talk about having charges dismissed??

This is aside from the issue, his conduct has demonstrated his responsibility in owning a gun is very much in question.