Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[Nimzovik]

Uh huh, all I could find in news searches was some silly petition to remove his rights. Good thing we don’t have a mechanism to petition government in this country to eliminate individual citizen’s rights. The subject gun is apparently still being held in evidence but everything I’ve seen indicates he could buy another if he hasn’t already.

This is all richly ironic considering now he has a very much heightened need for a self-defense weapon.

Spot on!!

Especially in view of this:

examiner.com/article/new-black-panther-party-offers-reward-for-zimmerman-s-capture-dead-or-alive

and this

inquisitr.com/856630/new-black-panthers-offer-10k-for-george-zimmerman-capture-video/#yt-H8trCjTatwo

A man has a** right** to protect himself from such a hate group as the ‘New’ Balck Panthers.

 

[Nimzovik]

It’s not insulting to bring up for about the 99th time that you continue to post a made up scenario that never happened, attribute motivation to a man you never met much less know, and a complete disregard for the facts, the diligence of the jury, the process.

My last word to you since you don’t bother to address posts:

1. Martin was acting suspiciously in the context of the time of day, the weather, and his behavior. If he had been proceeding directly home instead of wandering around appearing to be looking into homes, he would not have caught Zimmerman’s notice
2. Zimmerman was on his way to Target to buy groceries when he noticed Martin. He was not on Neighborhood Watch patrol although his involvement on NW perhaps made him more aware of neighborhood crimes and thus more observant of apparent strangers acting strangely
3. Zimmerman did not stalk Martin. If anything the reverse is true based on testimony by multiple sources
4. Martin could have escaped, in fact he did get away from Zimmerman
5. He chose to turn around and confront Zimmerman
6. Zimmerman sustained severe injuries and threat to his life BEFORE he pulled the gun.
7. He shot Martin one time, he did not empty his gun

NOTHING you claim is true other than the obvious fact that Martin is dead and Zimmerman held the gun. That does not make him guilty of manslaughter much less Murder 2

Lisa

Well that succinctly summarizes the situation quite correctly.

 

[BroomWagon]

Well that succinctly summarizes the situation quite correctly.

That’s a good one, let’s see where Lisa backs up the statements of Travyon “looking into houses” or the assertion she accuses me that I said Zimmerman emptied his gun into Trayvon??:tsktsk:

And that’s for starters.

Doesn’t seem odd to make such unfound statements as part of last words. That way, one doesn’t have to defend them. All while accusing others of making false statements.

 

[Nimzovik]

Indeed? I wonder what 'Looking about" entails. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…

And the* other* points you fail to mention?

 

[adrift]

That’s a good one, let’s see where Lisa backs up the statements of Travyon “looking into houses” or the assertion she accuses me that I said Zimmerman emptied his gun into Trayvon??

You have misquoted her she said "appearing "

Doesn’t seem odd to make such unfound statements as part of last words. That way, one doesn’t have to defend them. All while accusing others of making false statements.

Weren’t you the one who said

Good, you don’t seem to argue but tossing insults and negatives at someone.

 

[BroomWagon]

Indeed? I wonder what 'Looking about" entails. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…

And the* other* points you fail to mention?

Right off the bat, you have it way wrong.

“fail to mention” seems to show others are the ones who insist on falsehoods. The whole thing is mentioned in this post # 2266

---

But let’s do this quick:

No, I have not posted 99 times a made-up scenario. Obviously, the poster is confusing me with someone else, possibly someone who has to sit out a period of time here.

My last word to you since you don’t bother to address posts:

I don’t believe I ignored one single post from Lisa A.

1. I know of no record that alleges Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin looking INTO homes.
2. No where do I say Zimmerman was on Neighborhood Watch duty, my point is Zimmerman seemed to be a part of Neighborhood Watch who when presented with a problem work with someone, Zimmerman in this case did not have to go it alone, he could have asked someone in the neighborhood to help him POSSIBLY and Neighborhood Watch often uses Bear Spray. In fact, with NW, it’s a hot topic as to whether Neighborhood Watchers should carry firearms. Some associations may even forbid it.
3. I never said Zimmerman stalked Martin, Lisa A. conjures up total mistruths out of the air because someone else here may have said it.
4. Martin could have escaped, this does not assure “safe” escape.

1. He chose to turn around and confront Martin

This is Zimmerman’s testimony. Perhaps Rachel Jeantel’s word relates something on these lines but I’m not sure if this is a proven fact.

1. A broken nose and abrasions on the scalp are not exactly severe injuries. It is not a fact that Martin threatened Zimmerman’s life. Zimmerman may have thought this. Again, this is his narrative.

"7) He shot Martin one time, he did not empty his gun

This shows Lisa is not addressing things one has even suggested.

NOTHING you claim is true other than the obvious fact that Martin is dead and Zimmerman held the gun. That does not make him guilty of manslaughter much less Murder 2

Lisa apparently makes an unfounded lengthy inaccurate post accusing another person of saying things, does not address one matter I said. We have forum rules as to how we can address others on this forum and I respect those forum rules.

 

[LisaA]

Indeed? I wonder what 'Looking about" entails. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…

And the* other* points you fail to mention?

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, Zimmerman’s initial call which was played several times indicated that he thought Martin’s behavior suspicious. Again in the context of the time of day, the rainy weather, that he was “looking around” instead of heading to his destination seemed strange.

With perfect 20/20 hindsight we know he was on the phone with Jeantel and probably like most teens wanted to chat out of his father’s earshot. He was using earphones instead of holding the phone in his hand so Zimmerman could not see what he was doing. I know we all see people on cell phones gesticulating and clearly engaged in conversation. But at night, with the hoodie and the phone in his pocket it was not apparent. I have to wonder had Martin been wandering around with a cell phone in hand, would he have looked suspicious? I suspect not, or at least not worth a phone call to authorities.

Sometimes an eventual tragedy is a series of 'what if’s" that sadly no one can answer.

BTW seeing more and more black “leaders” with reasoned and reasonable comments regarding this case. I think they are going to eventually prevail. Apparently only a minority of Americans (based on at least on poll) believe Martin was targeted for being black.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

You have misquoted her she said "appearing "

Okay, where does testimony say Trayvon Martin appeared to be looking into windows or into houses??

It doesn’t appear to exist anywhere.

Weren’t you the one who said

Yep, I sure did. Do you have a problem with that???

Smilies are an option here and not meant to convey insult in that Lisa A. accused a person of a number of falsehoods.

Accusing someone of half a dozen things they did not say likewise is insulting.

 

[adrift]

I wanted to look at the transcript of the call and found these comments

ItsMichaelNotMike says:
I will repeat my comment from before since this transcript gives it additional context.

In summary Zimmerman said:

“He’s got his hand in his waistband… He’s got a button on his shirt… He’s comin’ to check me out. He’s got sumpin in his hands.”

When George Zimmerman says this it is one of three possibilities:

• Trayvon Martin was carrying the 7/11 bag containing the Skittles and Beverage; or,

• He in the process of removing the items from the brown plastic bag and putting the items into his pockets; or,

• He was holding the cell phone which he was using to talk to DeeDee.

I suspect what George Zimmerman is Trayvon Martin adjusting the phone on his waistband, perhaps redialing or answering the phone.

I also assume that what he saw Trayvon Martin carrying was the brown plastic bag containing the items he purchased.

Why is this significant? IMO George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin as he (Martin) made the decision to assault Zimmerman:

George saw Trayvon Martin vanish.

Trayvon Martin then doubled back and flanked Zimmerman to confront him.

As Trayvon Martin was doubling back he put the beverage into his shirt pocket and the Skittles into his hoodie pocket or front pouch. (These two items were found in those respective places on Trayvon Martin’s body by the medical examiner and paramedic. And the 7/11 bag was found at the scene, on the lawn.

I don’t believe George Zimmerman stated to the police that when Trayvon Martin confronted him that Trayvon had a brown bag. (Obviously that can’t be the case because Zimmerman would have mentioned it in his statement and also said that he observed Trayvon Martin put the items into his pockets as he was talking to him.)

So this is damn good circumstantial evidence that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor. IMO when he doubled back to confront Zimmerman he put everything away so his hands and arms were free. And IMO there’s only one reason why he would want this, so he could attack Zimmerman.

While Crump and Corey will argue this is nonsense, they can do that during argument. Let them explain why Trayvon Martin deliberately puts “loose items” (that are arguably encumbering his fists) into his pockets, instead of leaving them in the bag he had been carrying for 7/8ths of the way home from 7/11.

---

 

[adrift]

continued

My July 13 comment:

I read a LOT of the released disclosures. While the media has said there were no earth shaking revelations, I totally disagree. I have things to do but I make a few quick comments:

1. It is interesting that to have a complete picture of Trayvon Martin that night and the situation before the altercation, we have to look at different witness statements, in the discovery just handed over to the defense.

• On page # 35 the medical examiner on scene reported seeing the Skittles package in Trayvon Martin’s hoodie top front pocket. She does NOT recall seeing the beverage Martin also bought at 7/11.

• On page 81 a paramedic/firefighter reports that he lifted Martin’s hoodie and saw the beverage in Trayvon Martin’s shirt pocket.

• The brown plastic that the 7/11 clerk had placed the items was found on the ground by where the shooting occurred.

• Zimmerman has said that when he saw Trayvon Martin that he (Trayvon) pulled out his cell phone. Trayvon Martin’s T-Mobile cell phone was found laying on the grass where the shooting occurred.

1. My point is this. Why did Trayvon Martin walk back to the complex with the beverage and Skittles in the 7/11 plastic bag, but apparently when almost home remove both items from the bag and put the Skittles into his hoodie pouch and the heavier canned beverage into his inner shirt pocket?

It is my contention that Trayvon Martin’s actions in this regard are evidence of preparing to assault Zimmerman.

Basically, Trayvon Martin wanted his hands free. The bag filled with items was a hindrance so he quickly puts the Skittles into the hoodie pouch, places the can (that is heavier) into his shirt pocket, where it would be more secure, and either tossed the bag aside or put it into the hoodie pocket also (where during the assault it fell out of the pocket and on to the ground).

This is relevant to proving Trayvon Martin was the aggressor. (We need to find out if when Zimmerman was talking to the dispatcher what Zimmerman saw could have been a plastic bag).

I welcome an alternative explanation on why Trayvon Martin in the 7/11 video accepted the 7/11 clerk’s offer for a bag, the items were placed in a bag, then Trayvon Martin walks home, and a few yards from the town home he was staying at he removes the items from the bag and puts them into his pockets.

This is convincing evidence proving correct Zimmerman’s version of events.

Zimmerman says that Trayvon Martin ambushed him, then there was an exchange of words after which Trayvon Martin swung and broke Zimmerman’s nose.

• Trayvon Martin securing the Skittles and beverage in his pockets were the first steps in Trayvon Martin being the aggressor.

• The second bit of evidence was Trayvon Martin doubling back.

• A third piece of evidence was Martin allegedly telling DeeDee he was not going to run and expressing offense/rage that a white guy was following him.

• Fourth, DeeDee told Trayvon Martin to run home. DeeDee supposedly told him that twice. Since Trayvonites are so vehement when saying that George Zimmerman refused the police order not to follow Trayvon Martin (there was no such order), Corey and Crump need to explain why Trayvon Martin did not do as DeeDee told him to do, run home.

• Fifth, in her talk with Crump (his “witness tampering” meeting) and the State Attorney, DeeDee did NOT tell Crump or Corey that when DeeDee told Martin to run home he did NOT respond “I am too far away, I can’t make it home.” Nor did he say “I can’t outrun that guy, he looks really fit and he looks like he can take me with one or two punches.”

• Sixth, we know of course that none of that was said to DeeDee. It is because Trayvon Martin was only a few yards from Brandy Green’s apartment and there’s no way a 17-year-old, stud football player, who made fight club videos, would feel threatened or outmatched by a pudgy, short guy, out-of-shape guy on the horizon, so to speak. (Whom Trayvon Martin determined after he started talking to Zimmerman quickly concluded that George was not the police. So gave himself a green light to assault George.)

 

[adrift]

Okay, where does testimony say Trayvon Martin appeared to be looking into windows or into houses??

It doesn’t appear to exist anywhere.

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

Yep, I sure did. Do you have a problem with that???

Wow take it easy I felt you were doing exactly what you were condemning.

 

[BroomWagon]

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

Looking at all the houses?

That’s not the same as looking into windows, homes or houses.

Wow take it easy I felt you were doing exactly what you were condemning.

This is a falsehood. We have civil decorum here and a smilie is a way to address a situation. So you call using a smilie an insult. Good luck with that.

Lisa A. said she would not say one more word to a person, but before that, seemed to say someone made a number of statements, they never made and said everything they said with capital letters were false.

So I said “making unfounded statements” one doesn’t have to defend and then the laughing icon. If you call that insulting someone, I can’t help you.

 

[adrift]

No, I have not posted 99 times a made-up scenario. Obviously, the poster is confusing me with someone else, possibly someone who has to sit out a period of time here.

You have indeed been confused with two other posters.

Your post have been mostly balanced. Your frustration of being misquoted is understandable.

 

[BroomWagon]

You have indeed been confused with two other posters.

Your post have been mostly balanced. Your frustration of being misquoted is understandable.

You are a scholar and a gentleman, I might bow out with those kind words. I am humbled, God Bless You!

 

[Carlan]

GZ was legally allowed to be where he was. That’s all that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroomWagon
And he may well have circumvented the system, just like his testimony that Trayvon Martin says “Tonight you will die”, that is a reach to believe in. So, he may well have “played the system” as to why he had a gun and someone got killed in an incident he was involved in. I don’t see how it can be clearer.

Hmmmm, Perhaps if many of you had opened your minds and hearts for the young boy lying dead in a grave the way you have done for the person who pulled the trigger, you would be thinking differently concerning this tragedy. I just do not understand the kind of thinking that has been coming from this thread. peace Carlan

 

[liturgyluver]

You have indeed been confused with two other posters.

Your post have been mostly balanced. Your frustration of being misquoted is understandable.

I would second that. You have risen above the assumptions that both “sides” have made in this debate to rightly insist that the evidence is limited and that people keep making assumptions on what they think transpired.

I would add that, though I believe the jury reached the right verdict on the charges that were before them, Zimmerman must take moral responsibility for causing the confrontation by not remaining in his vehicle with his gun. If he had waited for the Police the confrontation would never have happened. At the time he was under observation, Martin was doing nothing wrong - except to those people who insist that going to a shop to buy some sweets, walking to his father’s house in a hoodie, looking at houses in the rain (shock horror) somehow automatically triggers some suspicion. Of course no suspicion gets attached to the other guy - I wonder why?

That’s why for many people it’s understandable that justice has not prevailed. The system - not the jury - has failed to deliver and sadly seems to have divided people along a fault line.

 

[LisaA]

ijreview.com/2013/07/66730-charles-barkley-the-voice-of-reason-on-the-zimmerman-case/

Charles Barkley gives a measured and balanced response on the case. He said the media “does not have clean hands” in this case. This is in response to the racism charges, not so much on the merit of the case although he believes that Martin was the aggressor whose actions escalated the situation from an irritation to a tragedy

Bill Cosby made a similar statement that trying a case in the media is wrong.

Lisa

 

[MaryT777]

I would second that. You have risen above the assumptions that both “sides” have made in this debate to rightly insist that the evidence is limited and that people keep making assumptions on what they think transpired.

I would add that, though I believe the jury reached the right verdict on the charges that were before them, Zimmerman must take moral responsibility for causing the confrontation by not remaining in his vehicle with his gun. If he had waited for the Police the confrontation would never have happened. At the time he was under observation, Martin was doing nothing wrong - except to those people who insist that going to a shop to buy some sweets, walking to his father’s house in a hoodie, looking at houses in the rain (shock horror) somehow automatically triggers some suspicion. Of course no suspicion gets attached to the other guy - I wonder why?

That’s why for many people it’s understandable that justice has not prevailed. The system - not the jury - has failed to deliver and sadly seems to have divided people along a fault line.

Well said.

 

[LisaA]

I would second that. You have risen above the assumptions that both “sides” have made in this debate to rightly insist that the evidence is limited and that people keep making assumptions on what they think transpired.

Yes but there is a HUGE difference between taking in relevant evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion and creating a scenario that has zero evidence and claiming this theory is just as valid.

The evidence, the law, and the decision are all in synch here. It is the fabricated and unsubstantiated claims of everything from racial profiling to gunslinging that have no credibility.

You might not be aware but the vast majority of cases ARE decided based on circumstantial evidence, connecting the dots and putting together a consistent and reasonable case. Those who demand videotape from six angles before accepting evidence will never see justice.

Lisa

 

[Cider]

With perfect 20/20 hindsight we know he was on the phone with Jeantel and probably like most teens wanted to chat out of his father’s earshot. He was using earphones instead of holding the phone in his hand so Zimmerman could not see what he was doing. I know we all see people on cell phones gesticulating and clearly engaged in conversation. But at night, with the hoodie and the phone in his pocket it was not apparent. I have to wonder had Martin been wandering around with a cell phone in hand, would he have looked suspicious? I suspect not, or at least not worth a phone call to authorities.

Lisa

Just for clarity, his father wasn’t home. He was out to dinner with his girlfriend.