Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[otjm]

I am not a lib or anti gun. I’m a conservative Republican Catholic who just doesn’t think this case was a ‘slam dunk.’

You are right; this is not a clear cut case like someone in their home being attaacked by a burglar.

It was a gated community, so someone was trespassing.

It appears there were a series of unsolved burglaries, so people who felt that the State either could not or would not protect them, started patrolling.

Mr. Zimmerman got out of his car (and from comments reported, appeared to be frustrated with the burglaries and lack of prosecution of them).

From the testimony of the young woman Mr. Martin was speaking with on the phone, it appears that Mr. Martin “took the first swing”.

From the testimony of an eye witness, it appears that Mr. Martin was on top of Mr Zimmerman beating him about the head.

From the testimony of the forensic witness, that appears to have been their positions when Mr. Martin was shot.

There was no evidence that at the moment of shooting, Mr. Zimmerman was erect and pursuing Mr. Martin. So retreat appears to not be possible; and we don’t know what happened between the time Mr. Martin hun up and he ended on top of Mr. Zimmerman, so we do know know if Mr. Zimmerman was then retreating or not. There is simply no evidence.

It could have been avoided if Mr. Martin had not attacked Mr. Zimmerman.

It could have been avoided if Mr. Zimmerman had gone back to his car earlier.

It could have been avoided if Mr. Zimmerman had stayed in his car.

It could have been avoided if Mr. Martin had not trespassed in a gated community.

So no, it is not a simple case.

Most are not.

 

[LisaA]

I am not a lib or anti gun. I’m a conservative Republican Catholic who just doesn’t think this case was a ‘slam dunk.’

Strawman. WHO said it was a “slam dunk?”

NO ONE.

What has been said is that a great deal of evidence was reviewed. A number of witnesses for the prosecution and the defense were heard from. There were maps, photos, re-enactments, interviews, along with the forensic evidence and the ME report.

After listening to the evidence and allowing the Prosecuting Attorney to get not ONE but TWO closing statements, the jury found that Mr Zimmerman was not guilty. Those of us on the outside who had not only the information presented at trial but other information that was not allowed have also connected the dots and believe Mr Zimmerman was not guilty of 2nd Degree Murder or Manslaughter.

Those who are against the verdict have the following to offer:

I hate guns
Zimmerman is a racist
Zimmerman killed the guy so even if it’s self defense he should be punished
Or a completely ridiculous alternate story that has zero evidence to support it

The reality is that the young man is dead and Mr Zimmerman pulled the trigger. Nothing will bring Martin back to his parents. But it seems that short of bringing him back from the dead, nothing will please Zimmerman’s detractors unless Zimmerman “feels their pain.”

Again if someone has EVIDENCE not an anti-gun screed or a fabrication I’d love to hear it but some 1000 posts later, no one has provided the slightest bit of compelling evidence that the jury’s conclusion was wrong.

Lisa

 

[pete_29]

Assumptions on part of that juror. The facts are clear that nobody knows for sure (except GZ).

If nobody knows for sure, then wasn’t the jury obligated to find Zimmerman not guilty?

 

[Polita612]

In the emotionalism of the Martin-Zimmerman incident, something is getting seriously blurred.

The death of Travon Martin WAS NOT a KKK lynch mob incident, but that is precisely how some wrongly view it, and precisely how others wish to present it to us, as a propaganda tool to advance their own current “political agenda,” whatever that may be.

We need to be at least*** truthful ***on the point that this was actually a chaotic scuffle between two individuals, that ended in the death of an African-American youth. It could just as well have ended in the death of Zimmerman.

The Martin-Zimmerman incident *** does not*** recreate the ugly, premeditated, conspiratorial circumstances of the Southern Ku-Klux-Klan lynch mob of yesteryear. We should object when people try to manipulate reality by wrongly pressing that very painful and inappropriate historical “button.” That is a distortion of the truth, for self-gain.

If people are honest, they will not attempt to blur these very, very different scenarios, or accept the assertions of those who are intentionally confusing them…

 

[livingwordunity]

These are some of the pictures of Trayvon (to me it looks like when he was 12) that the media showed to the public from the beginning of this:

http://localtvwtvr.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon.jpg?w=302

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Here are photos from TM’s cell phone that the jury wasn’t allowed to see during the case:

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Sanford, Florida (CNN) – Trayvon Martin’s familiarity with guns, his marijuana use, and fights he may have been in cannot be brought up in George Zimmerman’s murder trial, the judge overseeing the case ruled Tuesday.

At the hearing two weeks before the scheduled start of the trial, Judge Debra Nelson handed a series of victories to the prosecution when she barred the defense from introducing some information about Martin.

Read more

Which is the real Trayvon Martin? Was he just going through a “bad boy” phase? Either way, it’s a tragedy that his life came to an end so early in his life. May he rest in peace.

 

[Polita612]

Which is the real Trayvon Martin?

Unfortunately, the real Travon Martin is deceased, so he is now unknowable. Existence precedes essence, as some philosophers have said.

All that is left of Travon is the “fluff” that people will use to “spin Travon up” or to “spin Travon down,” until they make some kind of personal conclusion (possibly inaccurate) about him one way or the other.

Humans like to see the world optimistically. The good win. The bad lose. That way, life makes sense, and we can go on living. “Relief of cognitive dissonance,” the psychologists call it.

Others will see Travon as a martyr of some sort. Causes always need martyrs to advance their current political agenda. Consequently, we will probably hear about that Travon for some time to come.

 

[rocklobster]

Just watched this video on the case: Click here
And read the articles he referenced.
I am appalled and sickened at the so-called journalism that pervades the MSM. Why did they go to such lengths to villify Zimmerman. This was a straw tactic, plain and simple. I really and truly hope the Democrats lose the next presidential election and every election leading up to it, so we can clean them out of the government completely.

 

[Carlan]

Just watched this video on the case: Click here
And read the articles he referenced.
I am appalled and sickened at the so-called journalism that pervades the MSM. Why did they go to such lengths to villify Zimmerman. This was a straw tactic, plain and simple. I really and truly hope the Democrats lose the next presidential election and every election leading up to it, so we can clean them out of the government completely.

We all have a right to our opinions why not put together our God given common sense?

 

[DeniseNY]

We all have a right to our opinions why not put together our God given common sense?

Very true. We do all have the right to our own opinions. It’s part of being a free people. However, facts are facts and when they are ignored, twisted, or willfully concealed by an agenda driven media, what does that do to our freedom?

 

[Carlan]

Very true. We do all have the right to our own opinions. It’s part of being a free people. However, facts are facts and when they are ignored, twisted, or willfully concealed by an agenda driven media, what does that do to our freedom?

That is why when we listen to it all, not matter where it comes from, we have the God given freedom to put our God given common sense together and believe ,hopefully,the right and the good of it. Peace, Carlan

 

[BroomWagon]

newsbusters.org/blogs/john-williams/2013/07/16/npr-did-you-know-white-hispanic-zimmerman-shot-unarmed-black-martin

And respectfully, NPR, National Public Radio and their related TV outlet and individual State broadcasters I would hope would not just follow a general line of either side but report it in the most unbiased way possible. They are funded in part at least by tax payer monies.

---

Plus, if people get hurt, some have been already, we should remember those who fan the flames, I’m sorry, should have some responsibility here because many of us know, in our heart of hearts, this is one crime in the USA. I am sorry for the victims, those involved in this case but what about every other victim in the USA?

It would be like if one accident where someone was killed by a drunk driver was made a very big deal, yet thousands are killed in alcohol related accidents every year.

alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html

They are all tragic.

---

I have read narratives of a number of stand-your-ground and self-defense types of cases. If one is unhappy about these cases, one might think it is the law that should change but I wouldn’t blame it on certain parties, individuals.

Compare Zimmerman’s case to these: thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/07/15/2297541/self-defense-zimmerman/

Though the left leaning “think progress” lists these cases, at least in the 2nd two, I can see how the Jury would find against the Defendant.

Just last week, a Florida jury acquitted a man who killed his wife’s lover in his home after firing three shots into his head and back. But just months after Trayvon’s death, Florida’s notorious Stand Your Ground law did not spare Marissa Alexander, who fired a mere warning shot into the wall during a violent incident with her husband.- thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/05/2108171/florida-judge-rejected-stand-your-ground-defense-for-black-woman-who-fired-warning-shot-during-domestic-violence/

I will have to read the Marissa Alexander case in more depth, it is my understanding that she would have been able to leave the scene because she went out to the car and got a gun where she could have driven off. However giving her a long jail sentence seems excessive.

One would really have to read up on the subject and note all of the circumstances.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Just out of curiosity, if this was a “gated community”, how did Trayvon Martin get in? Were the gates open? What?

 

[Polita612]

Just watched this video on the case: Click here
And read the articles he referenced.
I am appalled and sickened at the so-called journalism that pervades the MSM. Why did they go to such lengths to villify Zimmerman. This was a straw tactic, plain and simple. I really and truly hope the Democrats lose the next presidential election and every election leading up to it, so we can clean them out of the government completely.

Our American civilization was founded on the concept of a FREE PRESS, which would present to the public views from differing journalistic perspectives, and which would vigorously investigate the truth and report it, and expose wrongdoing.

Unfortunately, that is nearly all gone.

Today, we have an OWNED PRESS. The mainstream media is literally in the hands of a very few corporations and individuals. Their object is not to inform the public, but to use the arts of propaganda to control, manipulate, and sway public opinion for the benefit of “the elite.” In most cases, that means cajoling the public into surrendering more and more of their God-given liberties. The truth does not matter one whit to these people.

With the loss of a free press, one of the cornerstones of American civilization has crumbled.

 

[Jeanne_S]

In the emotionalism of the Martin-Zimmerman incident, something is getting seriously blurred.

The death of Travon Martin WAS NOT a KKK lynch mob incident, but that is precisely how some wrongly view it, and precisely how others wish to present it to us, as a propaganda tool to advance their own current “political agenda,” whatever that may be.

We need to be at least*** truthful ***on the point that this was actually a chaotic scuffle between two individuals, that ended in the death of an African-American youth. It could just as well have ended in the death of Zimmerman.

The Martin-Zimmerman incident *** does not*** recreate the ugly, premeditated, conspiratorial circumstances of the Southern Ku-Klux-Klan lynch mob of yesteryear. We should object when people try to manipulate reality by wrongly pressing that very painful and inappropriate historical “button.” That is a distortion of the truth, for self-gain.

If people are honest, they will not attempt to blur these very, very different scenarios, or accept the assertions of those who are intentionally confusing them…

Amen!

 

[SwizzleStick]

These are some of the pictures of Trayvon (to me it looks like when he was 12) that the media showed to the public from the beginning of this:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120327085750-trayvon-martin-cold-cap-story-top.jpg

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120621010500-trayvon-and-father-story-top.jpg
Which is the real Trayvon Martin? Was he just going through a “bad boy” phase? Either way, it’s a tragedy that his life came to an end so early in his life. May he rest in peace.

Looking at his pictures makes me sad. Martin was a good looking young man with a lovely smile and he had his whole life ahead of him and he could have been anything. His death is tragic, there is no doubt about that. But, allowing emotion to rule and destroying Zimmerman’s life too to somehow try to help the situation is no real help. That just ruins more lives.

 

[liturgyluver]

Just out of curiosity, if this was a “gated community”, how did Trayvon Martin get in? Were the gates open? What?

His father’s lived there with his fiancee and he was staying at their home in Retreat View Circle so he was not trespassing. I also read that the gates only keep cars out and not people, but that sounds rather unusual.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

The prosecution did not fail to do its job. The prosecution did not have the evidence to prove the case they indicted.

This case should not have been brought, given the evidence which the state had - including the testimony of the police who investigated.

This case was tried in the media; we were constantly shown pictures of Mr. Martin at the age of 12. It became a “racial” case with both the black community and the liberal community trying - with absolutely no evidence whatsoever - to go down the path of “racial profiling” and the media - which tends toward the liberal e3ndo fo the spectrum - played it out. It cost the police chief his job; the county prosecutor was taken off the case and a new prosecution team hand-picked.

But to prove a case, you have to have facts.

They didn’t. and that is not mishandling the case; that is not “failing to do its job”; that is getting shoved into doing something you don’t have backing evidence for.
The media tried to play Zimmerman for a rcist; but what did the tesitmony in court show? Who made the racist comment? Cracker?

It wasn’t Zimmerman.

Eye witness testimony was sketchy and not all tht good, but perhaps the most telling eye witness was the one who said there were two guys fighting, one on top the other and the one on the bottom had a red shirt or jacket.

Which is what Zimmerman was wearing, and is testimony that was supported by the physical evidence of the wounds on Zimmerman’s face, and consistent with the firearms expert who testified that the bullet wound was consistent with the testimony that Martin was on top.

The consistent evidence was in favor of the defendant.

The best post on this very long thread. Accurate and without bias.

 

[St_Francis]

In the Marissa Alexander case, the husband first told the police a mitigated story and later changed it. However, both stories involved Mrs Alexander’s leaving to get the gun, which indicates she was not actually in fear of death or serious injury.

In the MacNiel case, it depends on which way the victim was running; if he was running away from MacNiel after the warning shot, then Macniel could not claim self-defense.

So, really, these cases are not really like the Martin/Zimmerman case.

newsbusters.org/blogs/john-williams/2013/07/16/npr-did-you-know-white-hispanic-zimmerman-shot-unarmed-black-martin

And respectfully, NPR, National Public Radio and their related TV outlet and individual State broadcasters I would hope would not just follow a general line of either side but report it in the most unbiased way possible. They are funded in part at least by tax payer monies.

---

Plus, if people get hurt, some have been already, we should remember those who fan the flames, I’m sorry, should have some responsibility here because many of us know, in our heart of hearts, this is one crime in the USA. I am sorry for the victims, those involved in this case but what about every other victim in the USA?

It would be like if one accident where someone was killed by a drunk driver was made a very big deal, yet thousands are killed in alcohol related accidents every year.

alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html

They are all tragic.

---

I have read narratives of a number of stand-your-ground and self-defense types of cases. If one is unhappy about these cases, one might think it is the law that should change but I wouldn’t blame it on certain parties, individuals.

Compare Zimmerman’s case to these: thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/07/15/2297541/self-defense-zimmerman/

Though the left leaning “think progress” lists these cases, at least in the 2nd two, I can see how the Jury would find against the Defendant.

I will have to read the Marissa Alexander case in more depth, it is my understanding that she would have been able to leave the scene because she went out to the car and got a gun where she could have driven off. However giving her a long jail sentence seems excessive.

One would really have to read up on the subject and note all of the circumstances.

 

[BroomWagon]

In the Marissa Alexander case, the husband first told the police a mitigated story and later changed it. However, both stories involved Mrs Alexander’s leaving to get the gun, which indicates she was not actually in fear of death or serious injury.

In the MacNiel case, it depends on which way the victim was running; if he was running away from MacNiel after the warning shot, then Macniel could not claim self-defense.

So, really, these cases are not really like the Martin/Zimmerman case.

They are similar in using “SELF-DEFENSE”, that is a big similarity.

My point, was not Think Progress’s view. My point is people who really want to know about this topic should read Self-Defense cases and familiarize themselves with how these cases go.

Sorry, I did not meticulously search unbiased sources that meet your approval. I was NOT commenting on Think Progress’ Editorial Viewpoint.

 

[meltzerboy]

Our American civilization was founded on the concept of a FREE PRESS, which would present to the public views from differing journalistic perspectives, and which would vigorously investigate the truth and report it, and expose wrongdoing.

Unfortunately, that is nearly all gone.

Today, we have an OWNED PRESS. The mainstream media is literally in the hands of a very few corporations and individuals. Their object is not to inform the public, but to use the arts of propaganda to control, manipulate, and sway public opinion for the benefit of “the elite.” In most cases, that means cajoling the public into surrendering more and more of their God-given liberties. The truth does not matter one whit to these people.

With the loss of a free press, one of the cornerstones of American civilization has crumbled.

I almost agree with this, except I think the power of persuasion and skewing public opinion to meet the political, social, and cultural ends of people in control or who wish to be in control is not limited to the mainstream media but is also found in the non-mainstream media, be it on the Right or Left of the political spectrum.