Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[BroomWagon]

dispersions is not the word you want. I get words mixed at times so I am not being critical just realizing that I am in the same boat with you at times.
I think you meant aspersions?

No you can’t say it for the “pro-zimmerman” side. That side actually sticks to facts. The anit-zimmerman side relys on emotion and mistatements.

Hardly sticks to the facts,

“Zimmerman was having his head battered into the concrete” well, where does this fact come from? Oh, I see, it’s George Zimmerman’s unsworn testimony. Even someone on Glenn Beck’s show seemed to say this. We have no witness stating this.

And now to post #2669, just fresh in this thread:

Yeah, a broken nose on the pummeled person beneath you will tend to arouse a little suspicion about your conduct.

(Hint: If the police actually believed the evidence showed TM did nothing wrong, they would have indicted GZ locally.)

What does a broken nose prove any more than a fight has taken place??

And again, if one person is on top of the other, all it proves most likely but not certainly, that the stronger man may be on top.

Conceivably, you could have a hypothetical situation where the winning fighter was on the ground, he could be using the ground as leverage to better head-butt his opponent while that might be harder if one was on top.

Yet, we routinely hear things like this as if it is stating the facts.

(Hint: If the police actually believed the evidence showed TM did nothing wrong, they would have indicted GZ locally.)

“Believed the evidence showed TM did nothing wrong”??? Or that there was not evidence in the case that Zimmerman acted to murder someone?? Another assumption.

And although SYG, Stand your ground is not a part of the trial, the SYG laws in Florida can make it where if the Police, Government longly prosecute someone, they can be held liable, so sometimes the Police do not arrest in these cases, something along these lines.

 

[lcburgundy]

Hardly sticks to the facts,

“Zimmerman was having his head battered into the concrete” well, where does this fact come from? Oh, I see, it’s George Zimmerman’s unsworn testimony.

You’re right, maybe he broke his own nose and cut up the back of his own head like that scene in liar liar.

What does a broken nose prove any more than a fight has taken place??

And again, if one person is on top of the other, all it proves most likely but not certainly, that the stronger man may be on top.

Conceivably, you could have a hypothetical situation where the winning fighter was on the ground, he could be using the ground as leverage to better head-butt his opponent while that might be harder if one was on top.

Yet, we routinely hear things like this as if it is stating the facts.

So, in your view, GZ was fighting TM and managed to do it without leaving a mark on TM? And with every bit of forensic evidence putting GZ on the receiving end of a pummeling? Fascinating. What was that you were saying about stating facts again?

 

[MaryT777]

If everyone thought everyone else was carrying a concealed weapon, we would undoubtedly have a more peaceful society.

Do yourself a favor and don’t look at news out of places like Chicago then. Black male teens on down to black babies are mowed down every weekend there, but somehow there are no threads and no national conversation about that.

Maybe you could start a thread as such and we could have CAF discussion about it.
This is the Open Thread on Zimmerman but that’s a great idea!
Mary.

 

[LisaA]

Fascinating. There are a few plucky posters determined to convince those living in an alternative reality that the facts are not the facts. The reality is that the facts don’t matter to those who are basing their entire outlook on the lack of perfect justice. No matter who says what, Martin is dead and Zimmerman is not guilty under the law.

More evidence has come out post trial including pages and pages of texts, cell phone calls and photos. Those picking Martin as some kind of erstwhile modern day MLK have backed the wrong horse. This was a young man whose behavior was so egregious he was suspended from school and kicked out of the home by his mother. I feel particularly sad for her as she seems like a good woman who could not control a teenage male…and few single moms don’t suffer from having no man to help keep discipline.

The justice for Trayvon meme does not seem to be getting much traction and now Obama and Holder have moved on to more divisive and unproductive activity. God help us we have almost 1200 days of this dreadful pair still inflicting their warped ideology upon our nation. I feel quite strongly had Obama not “adopted” Martin at the time of the shooting, this case would never have seen the light of day.

Meanwhile dozens of young blacks are slaughtered in the streets of Chicago including an eight year old girl. But who cares when these crimes don’t help the agenda.

Lisa

 

[MaryT777]

I never debated the fact. I questioned the relevance and stated that personal expectations of what he should know have no bearing on that…

The police thought it did have a bearing for they asked him the question.

 

[styrgwillidar]

He probably given his past history was not the right person to have a gun. Violent people rarely are.
That said we can thank our legal system for plea bargains that help save money and I hope he was able to come to a better awareness regarding alcohol since that is what he was sentenced to. “Alcohol awareness”

In all the prior calls, no violence.

So, you cite— not a conviction, not a trial, but a restraining order which can be issued simply on the word of one party. An issue that was settled since both parties took out restraining orders and the judge granted them. Again, easy you are both asking to stay away from each other. Fine with the court.

Again, not a conviction for assult on a police officer, but a charge which the court settled via deferrement. Why? How bad was this assault? What constitutes an assault in that jursdiction? In mine it can be;

Any touching of the officer. Tapping them on the shoulder, spitting on them, grabbing their arm as you’re talking to them, swaying into them while drunk and losing your balance, shoving your finger in their face or on their chest. In fact, getting in their face and screaming at them can get an assault charge.

So, what exactly did Zimmerman do that constituted this assault. There are a lot of things I would not categorize as violent that meet the legal definition. Maybe the judge wasn’t an idiot, maybe he actually had good reasons for the deferment given the details.

 

[BroomWagon]

You’re right, maybe he broke his own nose and cut up the back of his own head like that scene in liar liar.

Cute, maybe I can give cute remarks.

So, in your view, GZ was fighting TM and managed to do it without leaving a mark on TM? And with every bit of forensic evidence putting GZ on the receiving end of a pummeling? Fascinating. What was that you were saying about stating facts again?

First off, I have never put forth this argument you are postulating.

Again, though based on facts, it is how you are interpreting them.

From what I have heard, Trayvon Martin does NOT have any of George Zimmerman’s blood on him per the medical report. Trayvon Martin does NOT have any of Zimmerman’s DNA.

So, no, “every bit of forensic evidence putting GZ on the receiving end of a pummeling” does NOT seem entirely accurate, furthermore, do we need to drag this up again,

csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2013/0628/Who-was-on-top-in-Zimmerman-Martin-tussle-Witness-testimony-in-conflict

Neighbor Selma Mora testified Thursday “that after she heard what she now believes was a gunshot, she rushed outside and saw the man who survived the fight on his knees straddling Trayvon,” according to The Orlando Sentinel. "That man then stood up and began pacing, she said.”

…

Ms. Surdyka said she heard cries for help and then multiple gunshots: “pop, pop, pop.” However, only one shot was fired in the fatal encounter.

“I truly believe the second yell for help was a yelp,” said Surdyka, who later dabbed away tears as prosecutors played her 911 call. “It was excruciating.** I really felt it was a boy’s voice.”
**

Fascinating. What were you saying about stating the facts again?

And again, I think all of the above points to lack of evidence, lack of a coherent story on this incident and not confirming George Zimmerman’s version.

 

[MaryT777]

I couldn’t name the 3 closest streets in our subdivision… and I travel several times a day (and I don’t even have ADHD). I am not sure what not knowing the street names proves in this case… doesn’t imply guilt or ill motive in any circumstance. About as irrelevant as you can get… The fact that he doesn’t meet your expectation of what you think he should know has no bearing whatsoever.

The police thought that the fact was relevant for they asked the question during the interview.
Why did he not know the streets given the length of time he had lived there;He said he had a bad memory.
I have listened to the entire taped interview with the police though many times.

 

[lcburgundy]

Maybe you could start a thread as such and we could have CAF discussion about it.
This is the Open Thread on Zimmerman but that’s a great idea!
Mary.

Few people actually care about violence involving people they don’t know that are not near them unless it fulfills some sort of political or emotional narrative they have.

 

[BroomWagon]

Fascinating. There are a few plucky posters determined to convince those living in an alternative reality that the facts are not the facts.

Lisa

I think we have all we need to know on whether you are earnestly debating this right here. Thank you.

As we heard earlier, this is the definition of “aspersion”.

as·per·sion
[uh-spur-zhuhn, -shuhn] Show IPA
noun

1. a damaging or derogatory remark or criticism; slander: casting aspersions on a campaign rival.
2. the act of slandering; vilification; defamation; calumniation; derogation: Such vehement aspersions cannot be ignored.
3. the act of sprinkling, as in baptism.
4. Archaic. a shower or spray.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/aspersion?s=t

 

[MaryT777]

Few people actually care about violence involving people they don’t know that are not near them unless it fulfills some sort of political or emotional narrative they have.

That is odd; the news is filled with such violence every day. Do you have some stats on how many people do care; I bet here on CAF they’d be happy to discuss the issue you brought up. It’s important.

 

[styrgwillidar]

,

…

And again, I think all of the above points to lack of evidence, lack of a coherent story on this incident and not confirming George Zimmerman’s version.

And yet, this was another prosecution witness who confirmed Zimmerman’s story. He stated to the police from the outset, that after having shot Martin, Martin rolled off of him. Zimmerman stated he than got on top of Martin and held Martin’s hands away from Martin’s body. – consistent with the witness description of coming out after hearing the gunshot (gunshots by her account)

 

[SwizzleStick]

No one has posted any such thing regarding they want absolute detail, absolute clarity etc. …

No, not in a direct statement. But, to keep traveling the same ground over and over and over in discussion and offering speculation and possible scenarios rather than accepting known facts and evidence seems to be an indication of seeking answers that are impossible to know.

…That one is sad TM is not here to give his testimony is not refusing to accept the verdict.
No one is required really to accept any verdict albeit they are obliged to follow laws in society.

I haven’t read one Post of anyone stating they will not accept the verdict and the implied then take the law into their own hands on this forum. That some people disagree with the verdict is their right as we have free speech as well…

Retracing the entire discussion repeatedly won’t change the outcome.

…I believe a lot of good has come from this case actually. We learn the limits of Neighborhood watch. We learn if we plea a felony to lesser charges like alcohol awareness program requirements a person as such could be carrying a concealed weapon. …

I don’t see positive change. Seems to me more people will hesitate to get involved or try to help out or even defend someone against violence because of what happened to Zimmerman. I have great respect and admiration for police officers and am grateful to them and their families, but the police cannot protect everyone and cannot be everywhere all the time. That is just a fact. They usually arrive after a crime has been committed, so armed citizens could be the only thing between life and death for some innocents, but such citizens may hesitate a bit to get involved now.

…I’m happy to join you in prayer; mine being something like this NEVER happen again.
Once was one too many.

Our Lord did not promise Heaven on earth, so we will not find what you seek on this side of life in this fallen world. My prayer is that the damage to America and to racial relations can be undone and healed sooner rather than later.

I’m out. My patience has reached its end and my interest has waned as well.

May God bless and keep America and may He guide all of us through this valley.

 

[BroomWagon]

The crime rate in Chicago is regularly brought up in comments, we have even posted articles in comments I believe even in this thread. Likely, there have been post news stories making a thread on those stories.

Yes, I agree, this one case is overblown. But nonetheless, it’s a fascinating story as I saw people comment on the Arias trial or the Casey Anthony trial. In both of those, I had no comment at all. Some people find those stories interesting. I am personally sorry the media reports it in such a sensational way.

I believe those who have driven the story in Florida are wrong to have done that but that said, everyone OR many people seem to have an opinion on it.

 

[lcburgundy]

From what I have heard, Trayvon Martin does NOT have any of George Zimmerman’s blood on him per the medical report. Trayvon Martin does NOT have any of Zimmerman’s DNA.

So, if you are proffering evidence that TM didn’t do it, you believe GZ did break his own nose and cut up his own head…? Or is there a third party…or what?

Fascinating. What were you saying about stating the facts again?

And again, I think all of the above points to lack of evidence, lack of a coherent story on this incident and not confirming George Zimmerman’s version.

Eyewitness testimony is among the least valuable in determining fact. A person who believes there were multiple shots is not a credible eyewitness. The second eyewitness you mentioned only saw what happened after the encounter was over. Both witnesses’ testimony are largely irrelevant to the facts of the encounter. Trayvon very obviously would not have had a boy’s voice, either. More evidence of a non-credible or mistaken witness.

 

[livingwordunity]

Fascinating. There are a few plucky posters determined to convince those living in an alternative reality that the facts are not the facts. The reality is that the facts don’t matter to those who are basing their entire outlook on the lack of perfect justice. No matter who says what, Martin is dead and Zimmerman is not guilty under the law.

More evidence has come out post trial including pages and pages of texts, cell phone calls and photos. Those picking Martin as some kind of erstwhile modern day MLK have backed the wrong horse. This was a young man whose behavior was so egregious he was suspended from school and kicked out of the home by his mother. I feel particularly sad for her as she seems like a good woman who could not control a teenage male…and few single moms don’t suffer from having no man to help keep discipline.

The justice for Trayvon meme does not seem to be getting much traction and now Obama and Holder have moved on to more divisive and unproductive activity. God help us we have almost 1200 days of this dreadful pair still inflicting their warped ideology upon our nation. ** I feel quite strongly had Obama not “adopted” Martin at the time of the shooting, this case would never have seen the light of day.

Meanwhile dozens of young blacks are slaughtered in the streets of Chicago including an eight year old girl. But who cares when these crimes don’t help the agenda.**

Lisa

I totally agree.

 

[MaryT777]

And yet, this was another prosecution witness who confirmed Zimmerman’s story. He stated to the police from the outset, that after having shot Martin, Martin rolled off of him. Zimmerman stated he than got on top of Martin and held Martin’s hands away from Martin’s body. – consistent with the witness description of coming out after hearing the gunshot (gunshots by her account)

However the facts show not all eyewitnesses agreed with Zimmerman’s story. One eyewitness saw Zimmerman on top. Another noted he saw no such pounding on the
concrete of Z’s head. I believe in the end we can see without TM’s testimony we will never have a clear picture of what happened that night.

 

[styrgwillidar]

He probably given his past history was not the right person to have a gun. Violent people rarely are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Peterson
Without the gun he probably wouldn’t confront anybody and Tryvon would have been at home eating skittles.

He probably given his past history was not the right person to have a gun. Violent people rarely are.

That said we can thank our legal system for plea bargains that help save money and I hope he was able to come to a better awareness regarding alcohol since that is what he was sentenced to. “Alcohol awareness”

Well, Zimmerman didn’t confront Martin. The testimony by the prosecution witnesses confirmed that it was Martin that confronted Zimmerman.

Given Zimmerman’s penchant for helping others, he undoubtedly still would have done everytihng the same. Still would have gotten out of the truck to get the info the dispatcher was asking for, still stopped following when asked by the dispatcher, still been under the impression that the suspicious person had left the area, still looked around for a better address, and still been confronted, punched and assaulted.

The difference would have been Zimmerman would have been injured more severly, probably suffered severe brain damage. (I don’t think Martin would have killed him)

He would have been portrayed in the press as a really, nice sweet guy. Martin would have been initially arrested. Anyones call whether he’d have been charged much less convicted of anything. As a minor, probably would have gotten probation due to those plea deal things even if charged.

Eventually though, he would have gotten to combine the skittles and watermelon drink with codeine laced cough syrup and enjoyed his preferred relaxing beverage.

 

[MaryT777]

I totally agree.

It give Obama way too much credit to say he influenced the case.
He did not; it was gaining national attention far before Obama spoke out.

It’s not every day a young man is killed by a Neighborhood Watch person, thankfully.

 

[Dawnia]

What does your comment have to do with?

Are you against people discussing this issue?? Then politely ask the moderator to close the thread not me. Also, kindly address the discussion at hand, not the individual poster.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=508814

By the way, your words “make it up” seems to be innuendo.

You are welcome for my looking the article up so you can know the facts of this case and furthermore, I accept your apology in advance for seeming innuendo that someone is making up things and running with their heart’s content. I did not realize this forum was for only one side of the argument.

:yawn: