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twiztedseraph
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Opinions on Charismatic Renewal. What are we to think of this movement in the Church, approved by some, scandalised by others?
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Lazerlike42
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It is not intrinsically negative, however there is the great potential for it to become negative. Insofar as those involved in this movement remain faithful to the truths of the faith (and consequently the Magesterium of the Church), it is a positive movement which will likely keep many Catholics in the Church whom may otherwise be drawn astray by the “more entertaining” services at many Evangelical churches. However, due to the nature of the movement, it is also possible for many evangelical ideas to infiltrate the Church through it. Additionally, there is an even greater potential for the “I know better than the Church” idea to catch on in such circles (for instance, a group wishes to alter the Mass to its own liking). The movement must be monitored carefully by Church authorities so as to ensure that it does not fall into such areas of difficulty. That being said, it would be incredibly beneficial for the Church to officially recognize this movement and provide support, resources, and guidelines for it. This would help to avoid any difficulties while maximizing its potential to keep Catholics in the Church, draw non-Catholics to the Catholic Church, and bring about greater faithfullness to the Magesterium through the movement.
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rwoehmke
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As Lazerlike points out there is a number of possibilities for abuse, but at the same time it can be a strong tool for evangelization. John Paul II supported the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and one of our countries outstandingly orthodox universities, University of Steubenville, has been strong in the Renewal for many years. When one looks at the people who are or have been in nationwide leadership in the Renewal one finds genuinely orthodox and fervent Catholic individuals. Servant Press is an outstanding source of Catholic literature. On the local level, in a city or parish one does meet individuals who have gone astray, but one must realize that even some of our priests and bishops are not always what they should and could be. Like the old lady who said,“Everyone to their own taste as she kissed the cow,” it is not for every one, but it is a legitimate form of living out the Catholic Faith
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rwoehmke
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Twizted, you might want to do a search for threads on this topic in the forum. There has been a lot of discussion in the past. Dick
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Kendy
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I recently reverted and I dislike just about everything about my parish except the charismatic prayer group. They just held a wonderful three day seminar, and it was awesome. I have found them to be a really loving group of people who are absolutely on fire for the Lord. Occasionally, someone might have said something that wasn’t orthodox, but it was usually out of ignorance — Most catholics don’t seem to understand the church’s teaching. Plus, they are certainly more orthodox than my associate priest pastor.
Of course, the style is very protestant and that’s nice from me coming from the Vineyard, but I think we should stay away from the attitude that everything protestant is bad. Protestants are Christians; they have the Holy Spirit and are committed to serving Jesus. Obviously, I wouldn’t be returning to the catholic church if I didn’t believe it is the church founded by Jesus. Nevertheless, I think the catholic church could certainly benefit from a few protestant ideas.
Kendy
Of course, the style is very protestant and that’s nice from me coming from the Vineyard, but I think we should stay away from the attitude that everything protestant is bad. Protestants are Christians; they have the Holy Spirit and are committed to serving Jesus. Obviously, I wouldn’t be returning to the catholic church if I didn’t believe it is the church founded by Jesus. Nevertheless, I think the catholic church could certainly benefit from a few protestant ideas.
Kendy
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Sgt_Sweaters
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+JMJ
The thing is, the charistmatic movement doesn’t have its roots in Protestantism, so it’s not a matter of learning from the Protestants. It originated in Catholic circles.
At any rate, as one friend of mine has pointed out, the Catholic Church is the one true Church, in which the Holy Spirit works, so really the whole Church is charismatic. We all have different charisms, after all, from our participation in God’s plan. We are the true Pentecostals, because we were actually present at Pentecost.
There’s a good deal of positive things that can be said of the charistmatic movement, but some people can get out of hand. Of course, the exact same thing can be said of the traditional movement. Just as there are heterodox charismatic parishes, there are schismatic traditional parishes. Then you have all of us that are sort of lumped in the middle. We’re “plain,” as it were. But that’s all right. The Lord works with all of us. I lost that train of thought pretty quickly.
The thing is, the charistmatic movement doesn’t have its roots in Protestantism, so it’s not a matter of learning from the Protestants. It originated in Catholic circles.
At any rate, as one friend of mine has pointed out, the Catholic Church is the one true Church, in which the Holy Spirit works, so really the whole Church is charismatic. We all have different charisms, after all, from our participation in God’s plan. We are the true Pentecostals, because we were actually present at Pentecost.
There’s a good deal of positive things that can be said of the charistmatic movement, but some people can get out of hand. Of course, the exact same thing can be said of the traditional movement. Just as there are heterodox charismatic parishes, there are schismatic traditional parishes. Then you have all of us that are sort of lumped in the middle. We’re “plain,” as it were. But that’s all right. The Lord works with all of us. I lost that train of thought pretty quickly.
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gusano
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This is normal and to be expected.
Same thing happened to the Disciples when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
Rear the reactions of the bystanders in Acts 2: 6 - 15.
Harry Truman (when Democrats were still decent) once said;
"If yuh cain’t stand thuh heat… git outa thuh kitchen."
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is top notch.
The non-denon / inter-denom Charismatic… I’ll pass
gusano
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gusano
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Sgt Sweaters said:
The main thing about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is
the Holy Spirit has come into us (who welcome Him) , so He could lead us all
into ALL THE TRUTH. (John 16: 13)
gusano
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Lazerlike42
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Does this intend to imply that those not participating in the renewal are either lacking all the truth or are not welcoming the Spirit?
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rwoehmke
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I would say not at all. Baptized, Confirmed, obeying the Commandments, one has the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling within. I have always maintained that like the alleged underuse of our brain power, many of us never fully “unwrap” and use the very powerful gift of the Holy Spirit that the Father at Jesus’ behest has sent to us. When we allow Jesus to have full control of our lives he can work through us to do many beautiful and wonderful things. It is not our power that is used, but we become fully utilizable conduits for the powers of the Lord.
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Matt16_18
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Are you hostile to the Charismatic Renewal, or are you open to instuction from those who have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
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Matt16_18
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Sgt Sweaters:
“Schismatic traditionalists” is an oxymoron. Just because some so-called “traditionalists” are out of line, we don’t reject tradition. And just because some “charismatics” may be heterodox, we should never reject the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. (That rejection can be passive as well as active).
Jesus did not intend for us to bring forth the Kingdom of God by natural means alone. We cannot effectively do the work of the evangelization of the world if we are only working as natural men. To be effective evangelists, we must work be open to the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit – which are essentially gifts given for evangelization and building up the Body of Christ.
“Schismatic traditionalists” is an oxymoron. Just because some so-called “traditionalists” are out of line, we don’t reject tradition. And just because some “charismatics” may be heterodox, we should never reject the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. (That rejection can be passive as well as active).
Jesus did not intend for us to bring forth the Kingdom of God by natural means alone. We cannot effectively do the work of the evangelization of the world if we are only working as natural men. To be effective evangelists, we must work be open to the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit – which are essentially gifts given for evangelization and building up the Body of Christ.
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TobyLue
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This was my experience with the Charismatic movement. If I’m not mistaken I read in one of their magazines that it actually started in either Ann Arbor or South Bend, when a group of young Catholics got together with a group of Pentecostals. These young catholics then introduced it to other Catholics.
I got myself into a predicament where the situation seemed hopeless. I was introduced to a prayer group and it felt good. I continued to go and I shared my problems with only a few leaders who counseled me and asked for prayers from the group. I got through the predicament by a miracle and I thanked the CM for it. It also got me to reading scripture and I became very involved to where I eventually became one of the “elders”. I didn’t ask nor seek it but was told to join. However, things did start to bother me that I started seeing this “holier than thou” attitude toward the other parishioners who didn’t belong to the prayer group and I would always question why could they not see how great it was. We had our own Charismatic Mass once a month but then as I read more into the teachings of the CC I found that we weren’t doing some things right. Like “dancing in the spirit” during mass, self communicating, giving communion to infants, making up our own liturgical songs, having non-catholics preach during our masses, that only we had the Holy Spirit, etc., etc.
We welcomed anybody to the prayer meetings which was OK. However, we once had a group from a nearby AOG church, and we would always end the meeting with the Our Father and a Hail Mary. But, in order NOT to offend the AOG group, we dropped the Hail Mary. We had a Baptist minister visit us and in order NOT to offend, we dropped the Hail Mary. I wondered to myself, if we were to visit their church, would they add the Hail Mary? It was also taught that we were all the same, no denomination was different and some left the CC to other churchs as they loved the song and dance routines and the excitement and the level of shouting and jumping up and down. Some of the elders even got divorced and remarried outside the church with the approval of even the priest, as we were all Christians. These same people would then come to our Charismatic mass and were invited to received Our Lord as we welcomed everybody whether they were in a state of mortal sin or not, Catholic or not.
I could have left the Church but after visiting some other non-denominational churches I knew that something very important was missing; THE EUCHARIST. I left the CM and went back to parish life.
So I have both positive and negative opinions regarding the CM.
I got myself into a predicament where the situation seemed hopeless. I was introduced to a prayer group and it felt good. I continued to go and I shared my problems with only a few leaders who counseled me and asked for prayers from the group. I got through the predicament by a miracle and I thanked the CM for it. It also got me to reading scripture and I became very involved to where I eventually became one of the “elders”. I didn’t ask nor seek it but was told to join. However, things did start to bother me that I started seeing this “holier than thou” attitude toward the other parishioners who didn’t belong to the prayer group and I would always question why could they not see how great it was. We had our own Charismatic Mass once a month but then as I read more into the teachings of the CC I found that we weren’t doing some things right. Like “dancing in the spirit” during mass, self communicating, giving communion to infants, making up our own liturgical songs, having non-catholics preach during our masses, that only we had the Holy Spirit, etc., etc.
We welcomed anybody to the prayer meetings which was OK. However, we once had a group from a nearby AOG church, and we would always end the meeting with the Our Father and a Hail Mary. But, in order NOT to offend the AOG group, we dropped the Hail Mary. We had a Baptist minister visit us and in order NOT to offend, we dropped the Hail Mary. I wondered to myself, if we were to visit their church, would they add the Hail Mary? It was also taught that we were all the same, no denomination was different and some left the CC to other churchs as they loved the song and dance routines and the excitement and the level of shouting and jumping up and down. Some of the elders even got divorced and remarried outside the church with the approval of even the priest, as we were all Christians. These same people would then come to our Charismatic mass and were invited to received Our Lord as we welcomed everybody whether they were in a state of mortal sin or not, Catholic or not.
I could have left the Church but after visiting some other non-denominational churches I knew that something very important was missing; THE EUCHARIST. I left the CM and went back to parish life.
So I have both positive and negative opinions regarding the CM.
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Kendy
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What are liturgical songs? Why can’t you just sing whatever?
Kendy
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ComradeAndrei
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I will stick to traditional Catholicism, the more Gregorian chant, holy silence, reverence, etc. the better in my opinion.
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scriabin
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Lazerlike, your response to the OP is right–on–target.
Tobylue, couldn’t agree with you more.
Some groups make ‘baptism of the Spirit’ into an 8th sacrament.
But, if participation into these charismatic groups leads to error, is it really the Holy Spirit at work? Or is it our *own * spirits at work?
Tobylue, couldn’t agree with you more.
Some groups make ‘baptism of the Spirit’ into an 8th sacrament.
But, if participation into these charismatic groups leads to error, is it really the Holy Spirit at work? Or is it our *own * spirits at work?
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Matt16_18
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A truly traditional Catholic would be exercising the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just read Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of the New Testament and you will see that the first Catholics were all "charismatic” Catholics.
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Matt16_18
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And the err if they do that. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament, it is a great gift of grace from God. Unfortunately, many so-called “traditionalist” Catholics are passively hostile to receiving this gift of grace, and that is why they are such ineffective evangelists.
Non Serviam!
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ComradeAndrei
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But more reserved forms of worship and the Mass have served to foster the love of God in the Church for the past 1,500 yrs. or better. I think people have an innate affection for trying to do things because “the Early Church did it”.
As Pope Pius XII says in his encyclical Mediator Dei ,
I also personally think that if the Holy Spirit wishes to bestow these charismatic gifts upon someone, we don’t need to join some special “Charismatic Renewal” group. That sounds more like the “gifts” are contrivances done to gain a synthetic spiritual high.
As Pope Pius XII says in his encyclical Mediator Dei ,
- The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world.[52] They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.
I also personally think that if the Holy Spirit wishes to bestow these charismatic gifts upon someone, we don’t need to join some special “Charismatic Renewal” group. That sounds more like the “gifts” are contrivances done to gain a synthetic spiritual high.
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Lazerlike42
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I am not hostile to the Charismatic Renewal, or to those who speak in tongues or prophesy or receive other Charismatic gifts.
I am hostile to the notion that I am somehow rejecting the Holy Spirit by not belonging to the Charismatic Renewal. I am hostile to the notion that unless I speak in tongues or prophesy or heal someone that I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit. I am hostile to the notion that members of the Charismatic Renewal are neccessarily more able to instruct than those who are not, all of which are ideas that seem to be conveyed by yourself and gusano.
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