Oprah: Armstrong admitted doping

[YoungTradCath]

I guess I always just considered sports stars somewhat non-entity.

 

[rlg94086]

I guess I always just considered sports stars somewhat non-entity.

Yet, you are drawn to threads about them. Interesting…

 

[BroomWagon]

Gino Bartali, stuff of legend because he rode a long time ago but helped Jews escape Nazis in World War II, was a devout Catholic, from the South of Italy, may have chained smoked, seemed to be a good guy altogether, there is a book out on him now, Road to Valor. amazon.com/Road-Valor-Cyclist-Inspired-Nation/dp/030759064X/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358309353&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=gino+barali

That book was actually discussed on Relevant Catholic Radio one day on an hour show and I listened to it intently.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/18/gino-bartali-italian-cycl_n_1597004.html

Gino Bartali is best known as a cycling legend who holds the record for the longest time span between victories at the Tour de France – ten years – a feat made all the more impressive by the Tour’s status as one of most grueling endurance competitions in the world and the fact that Bartali was an old man (by cycling standards) when he made his comeback in 1948. Looking beyond the marvel of his athletic stamina, Bartali’s life provides a powerful lesson in how moral endurance can empower from within.

Born in a poor town near Florence in 1914, Bartali grew up in a world of grinding poverty. Day laborers like his father earned the modern equivalent of about a dollar an hour, and the average male life expectancy was forty years, due to diseases like malaria and pneumonia. With few career options, Bartali dedicated himself to cycling: from sunrise to sunset, he rode around the Tuscan hills and built up his physical endurance – his capacity to confront painful fatigue and pedal through it. Bartali’s relentless training paid off, and he made a meteoric rise in the cycling world, turning professional only a few years after his first race.

Okay, I don’t think Florence is the South but you get my drift and he was the big rival of Fausto Coppi.

But Coppi even wasn’t a clean cyclist using amphetamines in the day so for about as long as we can remember, there has been some of this in the sport.

Bartali died only a few years ago and lived to a ripe age.

 

[BroomWagon]

In Italy, Madonna Di Ghisallo is a big deal to cyclists. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_del_Ghisallo

In France, other European countries, they often wrap a holy medal around the front tube of the bicycle where the brand name is. A St. Christopher Medal or one of the Madonna.

Of course, one can find medals to put on bikes in Catholic Stores in the US even today the way people put Guardian Angels of the road medals in their cars.

http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/flash_product_image/img_var_trans.asp?prod_id=1418490

Sometimes, the Tour De France actually goes by Lourdes in the Pyrenees, that’s what I like the most about the race is seeing the landscape in the background, the countryside is very lovely, for a few years, I haven’t cared that much about the real racing.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yet, you are drawn to threads about them. Interesting…

My point is that we shouldn’t care about athletes to this level, it is just another symptom of the illness of society.

 

[Bezant]

I always thought Armstrong was full of s@^t.

 

[maximus]

Armstrong was cheat in a sport with a long history of gruesome doping; some of the things they had taken in the past could turn your blood into mud literally.

In a sports radio station they were discussing the topic of Armstrong was discussed in terms of “Can the ends justify the means”. Armstrong hurt the careers and reputation of a few people in his cycling career. On the flip side his Livestrong foundation has helped many people and his testimony has encouraged many people with cancer.

What was disturbing was that many people felt that so what if he trampled on a few people, the money and good generated by Livestrong made up for that many times.

God Bless

 

[Graubo3]

I don’t see why people care about this.

Because one of the greatest athletes of all time placed himself on a pillar of righteousness and as a symbol of perseverance. He tarnished the careers of fellow athletes, journalists, etc by essentially sueing them into oblivion for speaking the truth… and winning millions along the way, all while lying and cheating the entire time. Not just cheating by himself, but assisting in corrupting the sport by getting others to go along as well.

Inigo,
Very succinct response to YoungTC. Lance Armstrong should face criminal fraud charges. His ‘empire’ should face the same scrutiny as did Bernie Madoff and I would bet Armstrong is scared you-know-what about the prospects of losing everything.

 

[exnihilo]

I find this story interesting because it has so many aspects of modern life that I find troubling.

Lance passed all the tests. He may have cheated but he passed the tests.

Who really won? This retroactive assignment of the winner is something the Soviets would do. It is like Penn State suddenly losing games played a decade ago. Does the newly proclaimed winner celebrate the win? Can we really erase the past?

The reason they got him is because a government agency, using taxpayer dollars in a depression, went after him. They got coerced testimony from other people who they threatened to ruin, using the power of the state. Such testimony is not very credible. Lance may well have cheated but the evidence is coerced testimony. People under threat will lie. Sadly lots of people sit in prison due to coerced testimony.

If Lance did in fact confess to cheating then what I am most bothered by was the ferocity with which he went after people who claimed he did in the past. He damaged other people’s lives. If he had stuck to his story of not cheating he may have been justified. But now by his own admission the accusers were right. He made his money off of entertainment. Cheating in entertainment is wrong but far less wrong than damaging people’s lives. That is the real issue.

If he is going to admit it then he should just disappear forever from public life. Unfortunately in our day people confess only so they can carry on as they did before. The idea of penance is gone.

 

[BroomWagon]

I find this story interesting because it has so many aspects of modern life that I find troubling.

Lance passed all the tests. He may have cheated but he passed the tests.

Who really won? This retroactive assignment of the winner is something the Soviets would do. It is like Penn State suddenly losing games played a decade ago. Does the newly proclaimed winner celebrate the win? Can we really erase the past?

The reason they got him is because a government agency, using taxpayer dollars in a depression, went after him. They got coerced testimony from other people who they threatened to ruin, using the power of the state.

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2012/02/04/1328372943658_611.jpg

Lance lost because Catholic Betsy Andreau knew her husband Frankie Andreau rode with self-proclaimed Atheist Lance Armstrong and Frankie being her fiance, she did not want him using drugs. She learned about the goings ons and word got out.

Lance Armstrong is the one with a long time history of being vindictive and threatening to ruin people, threatening people with lawsuits.

Lance Armstrong too, had his tours insured, his insurer took him to court long ago but lost, those monies Armstrong took would have been ill-gotten gains.

Irish Catholic Author David Walsh and Paul Kimmage of Ireland, journalists and the latter a former writer, blew the whistle on Armstrong as his feats were not normal.

The government agency you speak of was from the International Olympic Committee.

That is hardly the power of the State as in the US Government.

Armstrong was into total control, Armstrong did not care about other people too much, I think that did him in as much as anything.

Also, you say coerced. That would be a percentage, people had said these things about Lance Armstrong long before this investigation.

No one coerced Emma O’Reilly, Betsy Andreau, no one did. There are a number of witnesses. Are there some people that would not be prosecuted if they turned state’s evidence, yes. That is how the law works.

Such testimony is not very credible. Lance may well have cheated but the evidence is coerced testimony. People under threat will lie. Sadly lots of people sit in prison due to coerced testimony.

If Lance did in fact confess to cheating then what I am most bothered by was the ferocity with which he went after people who claimed he did in the past. He damaged other people’s lives. If he had stuck to his story of not cheating he may have been justified. But now by his own admission the accusers were right. He made his money off of entertainment. Cheating in entertainment is wrong but far less wrong than damaging people’s lives. That is the real issue.

If he is going to admit it then he should just disappear forever from public life. Unfortunately in our day people confess only so they can carry on as they did before. The idea of penance is gone.

 

[JugglingReferee]

Never hold up an athlete as a hero. None of them are. The real heroes are our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. Athletes aren’t worthy of being in the same room as them.

I agree that athletes are over-looked-upon.

But guess what? Some of the “good” people you listed above are bad too.

And as for athletes, look up AC Green.

 

[BroomWagon]

These things happened so many years ago but in some ways, Armstrong is getting his come–uppance, he sued people. Now things have turned around. One has to wonder about his morality, more to the story:

On Monday, Armstrong looked as relaxed and confident as ever, seemingly oblivious to the media horde gathered in front of his Spanish-style house, joking about all the reporters fighting for his attention. That may change, of course, depending on what he says in the interview. Armstrong already faces litigation on at least two fronts – a potential lawsuit from an insurer he sued in 2006 and who settled with him and an already-filed lawsuit from The Times of London, who sued Armstrong in December to recover money from the settlement the paper paid to Armstrong in a libel suit. The British newspaper took out an add in Sunday’s Chicago Tribune with suggestions for questions Winfrey should ask the cyclist.

Read more: nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/lance-apologizes-livestrong-staff-article-1.1239948#ixzz2I9QryXKc

And as said, he was probably very unkind to other riders in the peloton,

Lance’s big doctor was doctor Michelle Ferrari of Italy, EPO pioneer who had been brought to Court himself.

 

[exnihilo]

The government agency you speak of was from the International Olympic Committee.

That is hardly the power of the State as in the US Government.

More accurately I would call them a psuedo government agency. The agency in question is the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA). They are ‘partly’ funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy which is run by a Czar. Who else would fund such an organization? The US Olympic Committee itself is a government chartered corporation. So the formal arrangement is pseudo private. But all along in this investigation of cycling federal prosecutors have been involved and subpoenas issued. This effort to take down Armstrong is not a privately funded effort at all and has had the power of the state behind it the whole time.

Also, you say coerced. That would be a percentage, people had said these things about Lance Armstrong long before this investigation.

No one coerced Emma O’Reilly, Betsy Andreau, no one did. There are a number of witnesses. Are there some people that would not be prosecuted if they turned state’s evidence, yes. That is how the law works.

There are indeed a number of witnesses. But to prove something physical we typically demand more than just testimony. Typically we demand physical evidence. People can say anything. They can be motivated to lie for various reasons. I myself would reserve judgment about something physical without physical evidence and I believe most people are like me. The many people who testify that aliens abducted them is not sufficient for me to believe them. The day they have a spaceship I can examine I’ll consider their claim seriously.

 

[BroomWagon]

It’s been in the news for a long time that Betsy Andreau’s mere testimony was that when Lance Armstrong was treated for cancer, she and her fiance were in the room when Lance Armstrong said he had used performance enhancing drugs.

VN (Velo News): In 1996, how many doctors were present in that room?

BA (Betsy Andreau): Two…two men were present. One was definitely a doctor and introduced himself as such. I don’t know who the other guy was and he didn’t really talk. They both had white coats on.

VN: Reading about that day, you testified that you didn’t know who the doctor in question was…

BA: Yes, I don’t know. Craig Nichols can say that it never happened, but he wasn’t in the room! He was not in the room at all. Nichols said in his affidavit that he would not ask an athlete if they ever used performance enhancing drugs, which is a joke. Then five months after that affidavit was signed, he received a 500,000 dollar donation from the Lance Armstrong foundation at the University of Oregon!

Read more: velonation.com/News/ID/5699/Betsy-Andreu-speaks-about-Lance-Armstrongs-involvement-in-the-Floyd-Landis-investigation.aspx#ixzz2I9WFasHl

 

[BroomWagon]

More accurately I would call them a psuedo government agency. The agency in question is the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA). They are ‘partly’ funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy which is run by a Czar. Who else would fund such an organization? The US Olympic Committee itself is a government chartered corporation. So the formal arrangement is pseudo private. But all along in this investigation of cycling federal prosecutors have been involved and subpoenas issued. This effort to take down Armstrong is not a privately funded effort at all and has had the power of the state behind it the whole time.

The Feds, i.e. Federal Prosecutor and Balco/Barry Bonds Foe Jeff Nowitzky and his team chose not to prosecute and by protocol left it to the USADA, national branch of WADA, World Anti-Doping Agency.

In June 2012, USADA charged cyclist Lance Armstrong with an anti-doping rule violation.[19] The charges followed a dropped federal investigation involving charges relating to Armstrong’s time on the US Postal Service professional cycling team (1998–2004).[20] Armstrong sued USADA claiming that USADA did not have jurisdiction to bring a case forward, and that if forced to arbitrate his case, he would not receive due process.[21] The lawsuit was ultimately dismissed.[22] Armstrong declined to further fight the charges and was handed a lifetime ban by USADA.[23][24]

The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is a non-profit, non-governmental[1] organization and the national anti-doping organization (NADO) for the United States. The organization has control of the anti-doping programs for U.S. Olympic, Paralympic, Pan-American and ParaPan American sport.

Really, the Olympic committee is behind USADA. I said that Lance did not get American justice of being innocent until proven guilty. On the other hand, these athletes submit to the authority of such an agency.

USADA does seem to receive Tax Payer monies as many Not-for-profits actually do.

There are indeed a number of witnesses. But to prove something physical we typically demand more than just testimony. Typically we demand physical evidence. People can say anything. They can be motivated to lie for various reasons. I myself would reserve judgment about something physical without physical evidence and I believe most people are like me. The many people who testify that aliens abducted them is not sufficient for me to believe them. The day they have a spaceship I can examine I’ll consider their claim seriously

Correct.

USADA is dispensing a different form of justice which in a way shows its autonomous nature from the US government.

Since there are so many stories now on Armstrong, I can’t find it but in California, there were attempts to pass legislation in response to this perceived overreach by an agency like USADA.

It’s a difficult call, these witnesses say LA doped, now LA admits he doped but he did not have the basic justice right we are accustomed to in the US.

Still, many of us, as with an employer, submit to other authorities per the law at times. LA was racing in Europe, participated in the Olympics, his activities were not necessarily stateside.

 

[SamH]

It’s a difficult call, these witnesses say LA doped, **now LA admits he doped **but he did not have the basic justice right we are accustomed to in the US.

We’ll see. We still haven’t heard the broadcast.

 

[BroomWagon]

In a letter sent Tuesday, 23 California state senators asked the state’s two U.S. senators, Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, both Democrats, to request a federal review of USADA, noting the agency receives a “majority of its funding from taxpayer dollars through the Office of National Drug Control Policy at the White House.”

The lawmakers called for the senators to launch "a comprehensive review of USADA’s operations and finances, with special attention to USADA’s unilateral changes in rules for dealing with athletes who have never failed a drug test."

usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-09-04/Lance-Armstrong-doping-USADA/57593548/1

Here it is, even Democrat State Senators per California questioned the over-reaching authority of USADA. Indeed, USADA did Armstrong in.

 

[BroomWagon]

We’ll see. We still haven’t heard the broadcast.

You’re right, one story said “apologizes” but doesn’t “admit”.

 

[BroomWagon]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USADA

The Wikipedia link On USADA, think I omitted it.

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One critique I have also seen of doping laws is that in the lesser developed countries, Jamaica, Kenya, Ethiopia, the watchdog agencies are probably not as strict and that the athletes might be able to get away with more. This seems possible.

These rules need to be uniformly enforced if enforced at all. Of course, just going over borders, geography, presents an obstacle.

A lot of people doubt Usain Bolt the way Armstrong was doubted.

chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/12/bernstein-usain-bolt-is-probably-doping-and-you-know-it/

This is what happens when people have apparently super human feats. It’s an interesting discussion but I myself don’t like to accuse others like some will.

 

[PrayRosary]

Steroid use among athletes doesnt really bother me at all:shrug: