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CopticChristian
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This has been going on independently with many of the Baptist Churches. Rick Warren and Saddleback Church, a SBC Church is Baptist. The Doctrine of Grace is Calvinism.
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CopticChristian
Guest
You may want to look into the history of The Baptists and see that there are various strains of Baptists. Study of the Baptists is like the study of Taxonomy. Baptists are separatists from the Anglican community and many do no considered themselves to be Protestant althought they express Protestant Doctrine including Calvinism.
Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish.
There is a strain of Baptists that claim “the trail of Blood” from the Apostles through the Montanists, Paulicians, Donatists, Waldensians and all sorts of Heretics. It is baloney because if you examine the individual beliefs these guys were not Baptists.
Baptists and Anabaptists were persecuted by the Calvinists, Lutherans and Anglicans for not baptizing babies.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
My comments from post 107& 108 are restated below. Please state your specific disagreements with my comments–my “paradigm.” Then provide support for your “paradigm.” (When you use the quote button, please do not write your comments inside my quote.)
I cited Scripture in post 107 & 108 to support all my statements.
Remember, you claimed we are saved by faith alone through grace alone; but you still have not provided support for this claim.
Peace,
Anna
**"Actually, I said we have to consider the New Testament as a whole— all of Scripture: **
The phrase faith alone does appear verbatim in James Chapter 2, which clearly states we are not saved by faith alone, and faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2: 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Please read the entire Chapter for context.
I’m glad to see that you are citing passages of Scripture. However, none of the passages you cited say we are saved by faith alone through grace alone.
As I said before, I don’t believe in a “works” salvation. Christ accomplished our salvation on the cross. So, yes we have been justified by faith----but that is not all Holy Scripture says about salvation.
Being a doer of the word and perseverance are also factors in our salvation.
When Jesus sent out the Apostles, he warned them of the persecution they would face and said the one who endures to the end with be saved. Again, we find "perseverance."
Baptism, the circumcision made without hands–which brings us into Covenant with God-- also plays a role in our salvation. Through Baptism, our sins are forgiven. We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The Lord’s Supper also plays a role in salvation and is connected with having life in us and being raised to eternal life.
**James, I urge you to read all of these passages in context. A thorough reading of the New Testament–beginning to end–will help put things into context.
So, from these passages, we find faith, being doers of the word, perseverance, Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper are all connected to salvation. Again, I will stress that it is through Christ that we are saved–it is through His ultimate Sacrifice that we are saved. So, I am not advocating a “works salvation.”**
As you can see, faith alone through grace alone can be a spiritually dangerous stance. God does not take away our free will. We can’t just say I have faith in Christ; I am saved by His grace; and I don’t need to do anything else or worry about anything else.
We still have the potential to again become entangled in the defilements of the world; fall away; sin deliberately even after receiving the knowledge of truth. We can still commit sins that lead to death, and even have our name blotted out of the Book of Life.
James, I encourage you to read all of these passages in context. Then, please explain how you can maintain that we are save by faith alone through grace alone, with so much Biblical evidence that there is more to salvation than that first step of faith in Christ and repentance."
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SteveVH
Guest
Great post Anna. Can’t think of anything I would have added.
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john_portis
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Thanks for your kindness, Steve.Great post Anna. Can’t think of anything I would have added.
Since James Least is claiming Sola Scriptura and salvation by faith alone through grace alone; I posted numerous passages of Holy Scripture in post 107 & 108. I’m hoping he will really take a close look at what the New Testament, says as a whole, as well as the O.T.----which points the way to Christ, who is our salvation.
I know where James Least is coming from–as you know, I was once there myself. You have been part of my journey–with many important discussions.
I just can’t get James Least to answer a direct question or provide support for his claims of salvation through faith alone. He is locked into a mantra—sadly, a testament to the power of indoctrination.
Ironically, even if you set aside Tradition (which is also a huge factor); the Sola Scriptura stance, which James Least professes, proves his assumptions wrong. I pray he will see the vital importance of this error. When all is said and done; this is not about winning a debate; it’s about God’s truth. When that truth shines through, we are all blessed by its wonderful rays of hope.
Peace and blessings,
Anna
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Defender1
Guest
I believe it was founded in 1611 by JOHN SMYTH .
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James_Least
Guest
Apparently “comparing and contrasting beliefs”, the scope of this thread, can also become “contempt” according to the moderator of this thread. This person has not answered my answer to his contempt citation. I am not really sure I am interested in appeals for such arbitrary and capricious behavior.
The following is directed to Anna: having tried the Private message system
unsuccessfully, I will try to finalize my position without being too contemptible.
This may never get posted.
Our paradigms: go back to Mt. 16:18 and who got the keys. We have a basic departure from the onset regarding authority. I made this point many times on this thread. As long as we cannot agree on an authority, we have no basis for a discussion. There is only one truth in this matter and it cannot be “all of the above”.
Peace,
James Least,
P.S. My private message function is not blocked–as of before this post, anyway.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
You don’t know my position on authority and the keys—since we’ve never discussed it. What “all of the above” are you talking about?
We are discussing your claim of salvation by faith alone through grace alone. You posted that belief. You made that claim. You opened that topic. I responded with support for my beliefs. You have refused, at every turn, to answer any direct questions or post support for your beliefs.
This thread has had over 3,000 views. Surely it would be in your best interest to support your beliefs.
Post 107 & 108 are full of Holy Scripture. Surely we can discuss Scripture. Is that off limits? You claim Sola Scriptura, yet you are not willing to comment on Scripture.
You aren’t comparing and contrasting anything. You make a claim and then refuse to discuss or support the claim.
If you refuse to discuss anything with someone who believes something different from your claims; then why are you here? What is your agenda, James?
Peace,
Anna
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James_Least
Guest
We have got to be able to agree on authority. I say the Scripture alone is the final authority on spiritual matters. While I cannot speak for you, the retort for that statement might be: the authority is from: Holy Scripture (we do not agree on what the Word of God might be), Tradition of the Holy Fathers, Magisterium, Papal fiat(ex officio) and certain Church councils. I was censored yesterday for using The New American Bible, complete with footnotes for Rev. 2:1-6 as a possible answer to: “when did corruption creep into the churches”. The moderator deemed me in contempt of Catholicism, with no small amount of consternation. My comments made nothing contemptible–expressed or implied.
How can we agree/disagree with anything if we have a different set of ground rules?
I have presented the books of Romans and Ephesians as showing the author and means of salvation–all of which are summed up in Ephesians 2:8-10.
Again: When two do not agree, they both cannot be right; they could both be wrong. What is the standard to which both can agree? In our case there is no such standard.
Peace,
Over and out–subject to censoring of course.
James Least
P.S. I have no agenda other than to show the Truth that sets men(and women) free from the law of sin and death, pointing to the perfect Law of Liberty, removing the shackles that keep souls from entering heaven. I think I may have just banned myself.
How can we agree/disagree with anything if we have a different set of ground rules?
I have presented the books of Romans and Ephesians as showing the author and means of salvation–all of which are summed up in Ephesians 2:8-10.
Again: When two do not agree, they both cannot be right; they could both be wrong. What is the standard to which both can agree? In our case there is no such standard.
Peace,
Over and out–subject to censoring of course.
James Least
P.S. I have no agenda other than to show the Truth that sets men(and women) free from the law of sin and death, pointing to the perfect Law of Liberty, removing the shackles that keep souls from entering heaven. I think I may have just banned myself.
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Nicea325
Guest
In order for anyone to believe Scripture Alone is the final authority scripture must state it is the final authority. Where does Scripture explicitly state it is the final authority and who said it is the final authority?
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Anna_Scott
Guest
James,
I have been discussing Scripture with you. I have not quoted any Early Church Fathers to call upon Tradition. I have only quoted Scripture, to which you refuse to respond.
If you truly believe that Scripture alone is the final authority on spiritual matters, then please respond to the Scriptures I quoted in post 107 & 108, which state very clearly that salvation is much more than faith alone.
Discussing moderator actions on forum threads is against forum rules.
What ground rules are you talking about, James? Please identify the ground rules with which you disagree.
I believe Holy Scripture is the inspired Word of God. Is Scripture outside your ground rules for discussion?
I agree that Christ is the author of our salvation, as I have stated numerous times. What I have challenged is your claim that we are saved by faith alone through grace alone. You brought this issue to the table. I challenged your claim through Holy Scripture–nothing else.
Please identify my “standards,” with which you disagree. Do you disagree with using Scripture to support a belief? Is that the standard with which you disagree?
James, as long as you discuss the issues with respect and charity, you have no reason to fear a short stay on the forums. You have, however, insulted Catholics repeatedly on this thread. So, if your stay is cut short, it will not be because you disagree with Catholic doctrine.
I have been posting here for more than 2 years. I am an Anglican, which means I share many beliefs with Catholics; but not all. I’ve had many long discussions, here, including issues of disagreement with certain Catholic doctrines–some discussions were heated–both sides expressing passionate arguments. However, I’ve never been “threatened” by moderators for disagreeing with Catholic doctrine. I’ve made many Catholic friends, here. I think it is important to celebrate the many beliefs we share; and it is important to discuss our disagreements. A respectful discussion promotes understanding on all sides.
James, I pray your heart will open to God’s truth, and I wish you well on your journey.
Anna
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James_Least
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pablope
Guest
Which part of Rev 22 are you talking about? Could you cite and explain/defend the particular passage/verse you are referring to?
Revelation 22
1 And he showed me a pure[a] river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy** prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, saw and heard[c] these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For[d] I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”[f]
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For* I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[j] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[k] his part from the Book[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.[m] Amen.***
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Nicea325–please forgive me for jumping in here.
James,
I assume you are referring to Rev 22:18-19:
**Revelations 22: **18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Surely you realize this warning pertains only to the prophesy in Rev, and not the entire Bible? And surely you must be aware that a similiar warning was given in the Old Testament as well:
Deuteronomy 4: 1"And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.
Deuteronomy 12: 32 "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Proverbs 30: 5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
Keep in mind that Jesus–gave us commandments not found in the laws of Leviticus. Are we to ignore those teachings, because of the warning in Deuteronomy and Proverbs?
The Tradition of Christianity is both oral (spoken word) and written (letters and books)—just as in Judaism.
2 Thessalonians 2: 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
How do you justify Sola Scriptura through Scripture? Please provide support for your claim; because Rev 22:18-19 does not support Sola Scriptura.
You still haven’t provided support for salvation by faith alone through grace alone–many claims without any Biblical support. They are adding up.
Please pray about all of this. If you can’t provide support for your beliefs, maybe those beliefs are in error. These are important issues, James.
Peace,
Anna
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john_portis
Guest
I dont see that in Rev-22 about final authority
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Anna_Scott
Guest
John,I dont see that in Rev-22 about final authority
That’s because it’s not there.
Peace,
Anna
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James_Least
Guest
Scripture only- aka Sola Scriptura: OT: Psa. 119:89; Isa. 8:20; Psa. 40:11.
NT: Mark 7:7-9; Mark 12:24; Luke 24:25-27; John 5:39; Acts 17:11; I Cor 2:9-16; I Thes. 2:13; II Peter 1:19-21; II Peter3:15,16;
The one that sums it up: II Tim. 3:12-17(C of CD, 1970 version),“In fact, all who want to live religiously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD AND IS USEFUL FOR TEACHING, FOR REFUTATION, FOR CORRECTION, AND FOR TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, SO THAT ONE WHO BELONGS TO GOD MAY BE COMPETENT, EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK.” (There is a salvation through faith message in this scripture as well).
Let God be found True, and every man lying,
Peace,
James Least
NT: Mark 7:7-9; Mark 12:24; Luke 24:25-27; John 5:39; Acts 17:11; I Cor 2:9-16; I Thes. 2:13; II Peter 1:19-21; II Peter3:15,16;
The one that sums it up: II Tim. 3:12-17(C of CD, 1970 version),“In fact, all who want to live religiously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD AND IS USEFUL FOR TEACHING, FOR REFUTATION, FOR CORRECTION, AND FOR TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, SO THAT ONE WHO BELONGS TO GOD MAY BE COMPETENT, EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK.” (There is a salvation through faith message in this scripture as well).
Let God be found True, and every man lying,
Peace,
James Least
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pablope
Guest
Hi, james…I am confused…first you cite Rev 22, then you cite, will I will focus on 2Tim3: 12-17.
I do not see the word “only” in the passage. The passage states that “ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD AND IS USEFUL”…useful for what? It does not say only, does it?
And besides, you seem to have omitted or did not highlight this part…“But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,”…see, this part of the passage speaks of teaching…oral teaching in fact…aqnd states that you should know who your teachers are…and so it is not just Scripture alone, is it? It also includes oral teaching…the Traditions handed down by the Apostles.
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Ave Maria
I’ll use your KJV for study and only deal with OT.
How in the world are you drawing Sola Scriptura from these OT verses? Please, explain as best as you can how the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is observed through these verses.
I’ll use your KJV for study and only deal with OT.
Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven.
7 And I will wait on the Lord, Who hides His face from the house of Jacob; And I will hope in Him. 18 Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the Lord of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion. 19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O Lord; Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me.
How in the world are you drawing Sola Scriptura from these OT verses? Please, explain as best as you can how the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is observed through these verses.
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