I also have spent decades in conservative baptist churches (not currently) and have never heard any claim of direct Apostolic line back to 1st century as an organized denomination, but your source indicates that some do.
I don’t think it is widely known, even among Baptists.
I shouldn’t have used “circumcision made without hands”. I was trying to refer to the inward change, the circumcision of the heart.
I think the issue boils down to when that “inward change,” including the forgiveness of sins, actually occurs—during a “Sinner’s Prayer” or during Baptism.
Here’s a few verses that show that circumsicion is not merely physical, but is to represent an inward change: . .
I’m not arguing against a “circumcision of the heart.” I am saying the circumcision made without hands-the circumcision of Christ occurs during Baptism, as does the forgiveness of sins.
The point is that the outward should point to the reality having taken place inwardly. . . .but no one was ever saved because of the physical apart from the change of heart.
I never said one is saved without a change of heart. Scripture just doesn’t indicate that all the “inward” part must take place before baptism. Is the “inward” part complete without the forgiveness of sins???
It’s interesting that you point to Acts 2:38 to show that baptism does something effacacious, and I would point to it showing the order (repentance precedes baptism).
Yes, in
Acts 2:38, repentance precedes baptism, but forgiveness of sins is accomplished through baptism as one enters the New Covenant. So, you can’t really argue that baptism is not efficacious.
The New Testament has numerous passages about Baptism and what occurs through this forgiveness, regeneration, and being buried and raised with Christ.
**Acts 2: 38 ****“And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” **
**Acts 22: **16And now why do you wait? Rise and
be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
**Mark 16: **16 Whoever
believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Are babies condemned because they are not yet able to believe (at least as far as we know)?
John 3: 3Jesus answered him,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered,** "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water** and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
Romans 6: 3Do you not know that
all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
**Col. 2: **9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Gal 3: 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were
baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are
Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Do Abraham’s offspring now exclude infants?
Titus 3: 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the
washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Eph 5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having
cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
The baptist argument would go that if only those who are saved are in the New Covenant, why would you give the sign to those who have never repented and believed (ie, infants)?
Infants were brought into the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is more inclusive. The N.T. never says—now I know your infants were included under the Old Covenant; but now God has decided to exclude them. Prove to me that infants are excluded.
Gotta run–getting ready for house guests.
Peace to you,
Anna
