Original Sin

[grannymh]

*When talking about Original Sin and God punishing humanity, it seems like we always find ourselves:*banghead:

That is me! Can get very frustrating when something is difficult to understand, it’s a sickening feeling too, why can’t I “get this” like other people can, am I just thick? Maybe if I bang my head on a brick wall I might awaken!

I will be delighted to loan you my brick wall. It has a crack in it so maybe the two of us can tumble it.

In my opinion, the “crack” is taking a doctrine and then finding its *source *in the first three chapters of Genesis.

From reading various threads, it seems that people want a bunch of verses to be the whole doctrine so that all the information about Original Sin is in one handy place. But that is not Catholic reality. For example, the teaching that we are in the image of God is right there in Genesis. Yet, we need to go beyond those first chapters to further understand that God calls us to share in His own life. This is the state of Sanctifying Grace in our spiritual soul. This is why we are in the image of God, a transcendent Pure Spirit.

When it comes to the first three chapters of Genesis, we are blest with 20-20 hindsight because of the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

 

[grannymh]

Like the example of missing mass on a sunday. Mortal sin. Even one time. Yet if our relationship with Jesus is strong, we can spend time in prayer on that sunday and still keep holy the sabbath?

I have heard this argument for years.

One response to that argument was that if Catholics really had a strong relationship with Jesus, there would be people standing in line for blocks in order to get into the Church for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. And then, to receive Jesus, Himself, truly present in Holy Communion.

 

[simpleas]

I have heard this argument for years.

One response to that argument was that if Catholics really had a strong relationship with Jesus, there would be people standing in line for blocks in order to get into the Church for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. And then, to receive Jesus, Himself, truly present in Holy Communion.

Thanks.
Yes the link you provided had opinions similar to your answer. I can understand this, being at church every week and receiving our Lord rather than go somewhere else is always a priority for me.
Should I miss mass I find the teaching that it is mortal very hard to accept, depending on how a person is in their faith, why we can not make up our own minds on something like this reduces us to that robotic state in my opinion.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks.
Yes the link you provided had opinions similar to your answer. I can understand this, being at church every week and receiving our Lord rather than go somewhere else is always a priority for me.
Should I miss mass I find the teaching that it is mortal very hard to accept, depending on how a person is in their faith, why we can not make up our own minds on something like this reduces us to that robotic state in my opinion.

There are some valid reasons for missing Sunday Mass. In these cases, it is our intention to go to Mass, but something happens to prevent us from getting there. Basically, it is when one does not care about going to Mass and deliberately chooses to skip Mass, when it is possible to go, that it becomes a problem. I say problem because I cannot evaluate the deep down reasons for a person’s choice. It is best for a priest to explain the reasons which would hinder someone getting to Mass. There may be something in the CCC. I have not researched it.

Personally, I go to Sunday Mass in “robotic” obedience. That is so much easier than having to make a choice each week. It is when I get inside the church that all my love pours out. Yet, that is nothing compared to the love that comes from God.

 

[fhansen]

At its simplest, the doctrine of OS maintains that the “way things are” is not the way they “should be”. And that it’s very much to our benefit to know this fact in order for us have a higher standard to shoot for, in order that the “way things should be” may become the “way things are”.

 

[ready]

We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?

We are not held accountable *per se *for what Adam did, but we do inherit original sin as his progeny, much like the child inherits his first generation alcoholic father’s gene for alcoholism. Neither is the inheritor of the gene held accountable for his parent’s sin; he merely suffers the consequence of his parent’s sin of being so gluttonous with alcohol. Every day we suffer the consequences of other people’s sins. “Inheriting” the consequence of another’s sin may seem unfair to you, but it’s part of being in the human family where we each suffer in some way from each other’s sins. God permits this evil, however, to bring about a greater good – otherwise he would not permit the evil. God bless you.

 

[simpleas]

There are some valid reasons for missing Sunday Mass. In these cases, it is our intention to go to Mass, but something happens to prevent us from getting there. Basically, it is when one does not care about going to Mass and deliberately chooses to skip Mass, when it is possible to go, that it becomes a problem. I say problem because I cannot evaluate the deep down reasons for a person’s choice. It is best for a priest to explain the reasons which would hinder someone getting to Mass. There may be something in the CCC. I have not researched it.

Personally, I go to Sunday Mass in “robotic” obedience. That is so much easier than having to make a choice each week. It is when I get inside the church that all my love pours out. Yet, that is nothing compared to the love that comes from God.

Thanks,
Yes if you would normally go but circumstances stop you then maybe some people would feel guilty and others not.
You say obedience, but isn’t one of the older words used for catholics obligated…not a word i hear often, but once it was known that catholics were obligated to go to mass, but thats not the same as wanting to be there for God.

 

[simpleas]

At its simplest, the doctrine of OS maintains that the “way things are” is not the way they “should be”. And that it’s very much to our benefit to know this fact in order for us have a higher standard to shoot for, in order that the “way things should be” may become the “way things are”.

Thanks,
I get what you say, but as we never knew what it was like to live as the way we should live, or could have lived, how difficult it is to believe we ever could as we are now.

I’m not necessarily talking about our material world, more in a spiritual sense. Our first parents walked with God…How? Does this mean they were able to see and speak with God, or they had a immense spiritual connection?

 

[fhansen]

Thanks,
Yes if you would normally go but circumstances stop you then maybe some people would feel guilty and others not.
You say obedience, but isn’t one of the older words used for catholics obligated…not a word i hear often, but once it was known that catholics were obligated to go to mass, but thats not the same as wanting to be there for God.

Maybe we tend to reject obligation out of hand. We’re obligated to love, to love God and neighbor, and yet we may not be willing to go along with the program-and He’s not willing to force us. The best of all worlds would be for us to always obey out of perfect love, but in this world we often have to live by our convictions, walking by faith, or else we’d never be able to be consistent in anything we do. It’s all about daily choices in how we live our lives.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks,
I get what you say, but as we never knew what it was like to live as the way we should live, or could have lived, how difficult it is to believe we ever could as we are now.

Well, first of all, we can look around our world, and perhaps in ourselves, and ask if all human behavior makes sense; I believe we innately possess a conscience that knows better, but that we don’t necessarily have the will/understanding to follow it. Kind of like having a treasure-really, God’s life in us-but not knowing how to spend it wisely. Jesus’ purpose, as the time became riper in human history, and ripe in our own, individual, histories, is to show us “how we ever could [live as we should] as we are now”, even if it’s a process for us that we’re only beginning to embark on.

I’m not necessarily talking about our material world, more in a spiritual sense. Our first parents walked with God…How? Does this mean they were able to see and speak with God, or they had a immense spiritual connection?

A&E must’ve had a much more immediate knowledge of God than us-I have no idea how that played out-only that they were able to dismiss this relationship fairly cavalierly-and foolishly.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks,
I get what you say, but as we never knew what it was like to live as the way we should live, or could have lived, how difficult it is to believe we ever could as we are now.

I’m not necessarily talking about our material world, more in a spiritual sense. Our first parents walked with God…How? Does this mean they were able to see and speak with God, or they had a immense spiritual connection?

To answer the interesting question regarding the communication between the Creator and the created.

What must be considered is that Adam is flesh and blood, skin and bones in the same configuration as ourselves. He lived and worked in a Garden on planet Earth.

The unique thing about the first human creature is that he was not only material like the other critters mentioned at the beginning of Genesis, chapter 1, he was spiritual like ourselves. Since Adam, while living on earth, has one nature, we cannot divide his spiritual principle (rational soul) from his material principle (decomposing anatomy). Like us, Adam could have used both his body and his soul when he communicated with God. For example, we use our lips to pray on our knees. Currently, we use our body to get us to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is the premier way of communicating with God.

When Adam communicated with God, he was not in the eternal heaven where we can see God “face to face”. He was in the state of Original Holiness so he did share in God’s life like we can. (CCC, 375) Yes, God was present to Adam, often described as walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden. This presence and communication with God was accomplished in a way that could be comprehended by the two material/spiritual beings living on the planet earth. We have to accept the fact that we do not know the exact manner in which this was accomplished. What we do know is that the means of communication was totally effective so that Adam knew what he was doing.

 

[simpleas]

Well, first of all, we can look around our world, and perhaps in ourselves, and ask if all human behavior makes sense; I believe we innately possess a conscience that knows better, but that we don’t necessarily have the will/understanding to follow it. Kind of like having a treasure-really, God’s life in us-but not knowing how to spend it wisely. Jesus’ purpose, as the time became riper in human history, and ripe in our own, individual, histories, is to show us “how we ever could [live as we should] as we are now”, even if it’s a process for us that we’re only beginning to embark on.

A&E must’ve had a much more immediate knowledge of God than us-I have no idea how that played out-only that they were able to dismiss this relationship fairly cavalierly-and foolishly.

Thanks.
Much of what you say makes sense:thumbsup:
Perhaps one day, the human race will become as it was meant to be in the beginning.

 

[simpleas]

To answer the interesting question regarding the communication between the Creator and the created.

What must be considered is that Adam is flesh and blood, skin and bones in the same configuration as ourselves. He lived and worked in a Garden on planet Earth.

The unique thing about the first human creature is that he was not only material like the other critters mentioned at the beginning of Genesis, chapter 1, he was spiritual like ourselves. Since Adam, while living on earth, has one nature, we cannot divide his spiritual principle (rational soul) from his material principle (decomposing anatomy). Like us, Adam could have used both his body and his soul when he communicated with God. For example, we use our lips to pray on our knees. Currently, we use our body to get us to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is the premier way of communicating with God.

When Adam communicated with God, he was not in the eternal heaven where we can see God “face to face”. He was in the state of Original Holiness so he did share in God’s life like we can. (CCC, 375) Yes, God was present to Adam, often described as walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden. This presence and communication with God was accomplished in a way that could be comprehended by the two material/spiritual beings living on the planet earth. We have to accept the fact that we do not know the exact manner in which this was accomplished. What we do know is that the means of communication was totally effective so that Adam knew what he was doing.

Thanks.
Without this sounding “wrong” A&E did not need a mediator like Christ for them to share in Gods life, we do. So they will always seem to be highly spiritual to me. Accepting they abused a freedom, that stopped them from gaining eternal life for themselves and in turn us, will be tricky for me to grasp.
The soul and body are one unit. I must reflect on this more, instead of thinking they will be separate after death. Forgetting the bodily ressurection in the world to come!

 

[fhansen]

Thanks.
Much of what you say makes sense:thumbsup:
Perhaps one day, the human race will become as it was meant to be in the beginning.

Well, that is God’s purpose in all this, I’m sure. We just take the round-about way, God having placed His creation in a “state of journeying to perfection” as the catechism teaches.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks.
Without this sounding “wrong” A&E did not need a mediator like Christ for them to share in Gods life, we do. So they will always seem to be highly spiritual to me. Accepting they abused a freedom, that stopped them from gaining eternal life for themselves and in turn us, will be tricky for me to grasp.
The soul and body are one unit. I must reflect on this more, instead of thinking they will be separate after death. Forgetting the bodily ressurection in the world to come!

Pardon me. The sentence in bold is “tricky” because the wrong terminology is being used. Original Sin did not stop Adam & Eve from gaining eternal life and it does not stop us from gaining eternal life.

 

[grannymh]

Pardon me. The sentence in bold is “tricky” because the wrong terminology is being used. Original Sin did not stop Adam & Eve from gaining eternal life and it does not stop us from gaining eternal life.

The idea that Original Sin stopped Adam or stops anyone from gaining eternal life is in error because Adam’s human nature was not destroyed.

While we are born in the contracted state of Original Sin, God still calls us to share in His life because God never stops loving us. (Genesis 3:15) In loving us, the Holy Spirit offers each person the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, in the grace of redemption. (CCC, 1260) Because of human’s rational spiritual soul and free will, each person is able, in her or his own way, to seek the truth of the super-natural Creator.

We must not fall into the trap of thinking that somehow an awful God abandoned Adam and us.

 

[simpleas]

The idea that Original Sin stopped Adam or stops anyone from gaining eternal life is in error because Adam’s human nature was not destroyed.

While we are born in the contracted state of Original Sin, God still calls us to share in His life because God never stops loving us. (Genesis 3:15) In loving us, the Holy Spirit offers each person the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, in the grace of redemption. (CCC, 1260) Because of human’s rational spiritual soul and free will, each person is able, in her or his own way, to seek the truth of the super-natural Creator.

We must not fall into the trap of thinking that somehow an awful God abandoned Adam and us.

In all my questioning, I don’t think I’ve ever thought that an awful God abandoned Adam and us. I’ve only thought of God as a loving God, but reading the O.T does make for difficult reading sometimes, as God doesn’t sound like the Jesus we know now.

Like you said, this thread is most likely to be ending and closed soon.

Thanks from me to EVERYONE who posted, even though I’m not the original poster, this has been a very real journey for me!

 

[fhansen]

By disobeying God, by seeking to take over authority or control from Him, Adam was actually opting for no control, no limitations or constraints on himself whatsoever. And this is why we sin, this is why we live in a world where good and evil coexist, where righteousness is compromised or conditioned or opposed by evil, where good reigns, when it does, only at cost to us and with struggle. So the reason for this is that God is not in total control of man, within his being, having left that option up to man’s own will. When we’ve finally come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength then our justice, our holiness, our wholeness is complete or fully realized; God is all in all, back in control again. Apart from God man’s self-control is mitigated, subject to the lure of anarchy or non-control in reality.

 

[grannymh]

By disobeying God, by seeking to take over authority or control from Him, Adam was actually opting for no control, no limitations or constraints on himself whatsoever. And this is why we sin, this is why we live in a world where good and evil coexist, where righteousness is compromised or conditioned or opposed by evil, where good reigns, when it does, only at cost to us and with struggle. So the reason for this is that God is not in total control of man, within his being, having left that option up to man’s own will. When we’ve finally come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength then our justice, our holiness, our wholeness is complete or fully realized; God is all in all, back in control again. Apart from God man’s self-control is mitigated, subject to the lure of anarchy or non-control in reality.

When you said “**By disobeying God, by seeking to take over authority or control from Him, Adam was actually opting for no control, no limitations or constraints on himself whatsoever.” **the point of “no limitations or constraints on himself whatsoever” can be found in CCC, 396.

This is what I would like clarified. “seeking to take over authority or control from Him,” What kind of “control from Him” are you referring to?

Thank you.

 

[fhansen]

When you said “By disobeying God, by seeking to take over authority or control from Him, Adam was actually opting for no control, no limitations or constraints on himself whatsoever.” the point of “no limitations or constraints on himself whatsoever” can be found in CCC, 396.

This is what I would like clarified. “seeking to take over authority or control from Him,” What kind of “control from Him” are you referring to?

Thank you.

Control over himself, taking on the role of god, making his own determinations over what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong.